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OfflineDF2K
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Fate contradics free will
    #4300076 - 06/15/05 05:41 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Fate:
The supposed force, principle, or power that predetermines events.
The inevitable events predestined by this force.

Free Will:
The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

if everything in life is predecieded, then what is the value of choice???


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Fate contradics free will [Re: DF2K]
    #4300084 - 06/15/05 05:42 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Even if we take away the New Age, spiritual concept of "fate", and replace it with the realistic, scientific concept of causality, where everything has a cause and an effect, there is still no free will. Free will doesn't seem to exist, unless it exists beyond the parameters of modern science and knowledge.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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Invisiblemoog
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Registered: 02/15/05
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Re: Fate contradics free will [Re: DF2K]
    #4300086 - 06/15/05 05:43 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

It's a good thing nothing in life is predecided then.


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Invisiblemoog
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Posts: 1,296
Re: Fate contradics free will [Re: Ravus]
    #4300124 - 06/15/05 05:52 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Free will exists. Absolute free will doesn't... at least for "us."


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Fate contradics free will [Re: DF2K]
    #4300140 - 06/15/05 05:55 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

if everything in life is predecieded, then what is the value of choice???

If there is fate, choice is necessarily an illusion.

Corollary: If there is an omniscient $DEITY, then choice is not possible.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Invisiblemoog
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Re: Fate contradics free will [Re: Diploid]
    #4300185 - 06/15/05 06:01 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Hmmm, I don't agree ..

if there's a deity that knows your choice, how does that nullify the choice?


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Fate contradics free will [Re: moog]
    #4300307 - 06/15/05 06:24 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Let's say a traveler with free will arrives at a fork in the road. He has a choice to go left or go right. Let's also say that God is omniscient and knows ahead of time that the traveler will go left.

Well, if God knows the traveler will go left, then either the traveler has no choice but to go left by virtue of God foreknowledge, or the traveler goes right by his free will choice, thus rendering God wrong.

If God is right, the traveler has no free will and must go left as predicted. If the traveler has the possibility of going right and does, then God is wrong and not omniscient.

Logic 101.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Fate contradics free will [Re: moog]
    #4300309 - 06/15/05 06:24 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

How is free will created out of a large connection of molecules? At what point does free will emerge from life? Is there suddenly a point when animals say, "I can choose!" or what?

I don't think there is free will. Our survival follows causality, and our evolution follows laws of the universe. The way our brain works gives us the illusion that we are making the choice by some separate mind, but truely our reactions are just effects following causes following effects.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Fate contradics free will [Re: Ravus]
    #4300353 - 06/15/05 06:31 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

How is free will created out of a large connection of molecules?

This is a simple one. It's a result of Quantum Randomness. The universe is definitely not deterministic.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineDF2K
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Registered: 06/01/02
Posts: 5,826
Loc: The land before time
Last seen: 2 years, 11 months
Re: Fate contradics free will [Re: Diploid]
    #4300414 - 06/15/05 06:44 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

god gave us free will, but if god already knows everything we are going to do before we do it, what was the purpose of giving us free will?


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Registered: 01/09/03
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Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Fate contradics free will [Re: DF2K]
    #4300442 - 06/15/05 06:48 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

What was the purpose of creating us in the first place if all we are is the ticker tape on an old player piano?

Maybe God gets off on watching misery, violence, and death, which, compared to good, the history of the world has an abundance of. :shrug:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 93,974
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Re: Fate contradics free will [Re: DF2K]
    #4300449 - 06/15/05 06:50 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Who said God gave us free will? I'm still trying to track this God guy down. Lots of rumors but he's a no show. :frown:


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibleorechron
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Re: Fate contradics free will [Re: Icelander]
    #4300464 - 06/15/05 06:52 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I last spotted him in Manhattan announcing the apocalypse.


--------------------
Live by the foma that make you brave, and kind, and healthy, and happy.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Fate contradics free will [Re: orechron]
    #4300470 - 06/15/05 06:54 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Yeah, Elvis was with him!


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 93,974
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Re: Fate contradics free will [Re: orechron]
    #4300472 - 06/15/05 06:55 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

So you say. When I'm on the west coast and can't confirm the sighting. :thumbdown:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineDF2K
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Re: Fate contradics free will [Re: orechron]
    #4300483 - 06/15/05 06:56 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

i beileve the christiane bible states *god* gave us free will


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OfflineBleaK
paradox
Registered: 06/24/02
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Re: Fate contradics free will [Re: DF2K]
    #4300497 - 06/15/05 06:58 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

everything ive ever examined has been dualistic and thus, paradoxal.


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Fate contradics free will [Re: Diploid]
    #4300517 - 06/15/05 07:04 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Let's say a traveler with free will arrives at a fork in the road. He has a choice to go left or go right. Let's also say that God is omniscient and knows ahead of time that the traveler will go left.

Well, if God knows the traveler will go left, then either the traveler has no choice but to go left by virtue of God foreknowledge, or the traveler goes right by his free will choice, thus rendering God wrong.

If God is right, the traveler has no free will and must go left as predicted. If the traveler has the possibility of going right and does, then God is wrong and not omniscient.


Yeah, but which fork takes the traveller to the cannibalistic tribe?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Fate contradics free will [Re: Diploid]
    #4300526 - 06/15/05 07:06 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
How is free will created out of a large connection of molecules?

This is a simple one. It's a result of Quantum Randomness. The universe is definitely not deterministic.




If it is as you say, then the universe is a creation of randomness and we live in a probabilistic universe rather than a deterministic one. It still doesn't explain how free will arises out of randomness and probability.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineDF2K
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Re: Fate contradics free will [Re: Swami]
    #4300527 - 06/15/05 07:07 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

christianity is one big contradiction it would seem


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