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OfflineMixomatosis
great ape

Registered: 10/28/03
Posts: 1,306
Loc: cipherland
Last seen: 3 years, 11 months
Sometimes there's evidence only if you want it
    #2155152 - 12/03/03 02:38 PM (13 years, 4 days ago)

strange, eh? Like if you decide you want something to be real, like aliens or reincarnation, you can go about selectively reading information and you can find lots of evidence to support your belief, but to someone who doesn't believe, who is looking at the evidence objectively because they aren't driven by an emotional need to believe, the evidence is weak and proves nothing. I'm posting this from the back of a convenienve store. Dog food, cat food, cereal, and coke syrup.


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Offlinesirreal
devoid
Registered: 01/11/03
Posts: 1,775
Loc: In the borderlands
Last seen: 9 years, 7 months
Re: Sometimes there's evidence only if you want it [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2155164 - 12/03/03 02:42 PM (13 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

Mixomatosis said:
strange, eh? Like if you decide you want something to be real, like aliens or reincarnation, you can go about selectively reading information and you can find lots of evidence to support your belief, but to someone who doesn't believe, who is looking at the evidence objectively because they aren't driven by an emotional need to believe, the evidence is weak and proves nothing. I'm posting this from the back of a convenienve store. Dog food, cat food, cereal, and coke syrup. 





You could have just dug up one of swamis posts and saved yourself the trouble. :rolleyes: 


--------------------
I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


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Offlinepattern
multiplayer

Registered: 07/19/02
Posts: 2,183
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 1 year, 8 months
Re: Sometimes there's evidence only if you want it [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2155278 - 12/03/03 03:10 PM (13 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

Like if you decide you want something to be real, like aliens or reincarnation




What if someone experienced an alien encounter? They wouldnt "go about selectively reading information" nor have an "emotional need to believe", it would just be a simple fact to them. On the other hand, if you havent had such an encounter, the evidence is pretty weak.


--------------------
man = monkey + mushroom


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Sometimes there's evidence only if you want it [Re: pattern]
    #2155357 - 12/03/03 03:33 PM (13 years, 4 days ago)

What if someone experienced an alien encounter? They wouldnt "go about selectively reading information" nor have an "emotional need to believe", it would just be a simple fact to them.

Not true. Some people here experience an alien encounter while tripping on fungus. Most claim this to be "real". When I pointed out that many also meet cartoon characters whilst tripping, these same people deny that these are "real" encounters. Is this not selective?

Not true. Some people here experience an alien encounter while drifting off to sleep or immediately upon awakening. There is strong evidence that many types of fantasy creatures are experienced while in a hypnagogic or hypnopompic state. These images are certainly not part of consensus reality.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleDoctorJ
Stranger
 Arcade Champion: Frogger

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,451
Loc: space
Re: Sometimes there's evidence only if you want it [Re: pattern]
    #2155374 - 12/03/03 03:36 PM (13 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

Like if you decide you want something to be real, like aliens or reincarnation, you can go about selectively reading information and you can find lots of evidence to support your belief, but to someone who doesn't believe, who is looking at the evidence objectively because they aren't driven by an emotional need to believe, the evidence is weak and proves nothing.




Hmmm, well, I know that i used to be one of those people who looked at evidence "objectively" and wasn't very convinced, but in the course of my travels, the evidence piled up and I ran out of floorboards to hide it under.  Seriously, as of 5 years ago, I was a regular SWAMI.  I laughed and made fun of this orthodox jewish kid in my class who believed in Kabbalah (I really feel bad about that now, but I am positive i will see that kid again someday and be able to apologize :smile: ) because his beliefs made no sense from my "objective" perspective.  I used to be one of those people who was very pompous and proud of himself for having taken and mastered classes in theory of knowledge and formal logic.  I would laugh and sneer and point fingers and feel big about myself.  I had an emotional need to disprove, because of my inferiority complex. 

When I came into my faith and belief in the occult (terms used real vaguely here for laziness purposes) it was more of a hesitant recognition of the truth than an emotional need-driven thing.  At no point did I feel a need to believe- I would have rather not believed, but with the things I had seen, belief was inescapable at that point.  Faith was a very difficult thing for me to admit, even after I had been convinced of its validity- after all, I did spend a good portion of my life being a devout athiest and generally attacking everyone's beliefs- recognizing the validity of faith and certain occult principles was a bitter pill to swallow, and my ego fought me every step of the way.  Imagine overcoming that kind of emotional barrier!

I'll grant you that a lot of people reach faith through dogma, and this is wrong. 

but there are people who find it on their own and have proved it to themselves.  Often times the evidence is personal and cannot be recreated in a display for another person.  And some people just happen to be in the right place at the right time and see solid evidence- but no one ever believes them, because they are like isolated particles in a solvent diluted by bullshitters. 

anyway, your definition of believer isnt totally accurate.  There are some believers that have no emotional need to believe- they have an experiential or logical need to believe- because belief is the only thing that can explain what they have experienced.  Some people have accused me of becoming emotionally attached to my arguements.  Emotion has nothing to do with it.  I dispute things that I see as wrong, or innaccurate, or mistruthful, by the standards of my own logic and experience.  Some of my experiences defy logic, and yet I cannot logically deny that they happened.  I'm sorry if you've never had any of these experiences, or maybe you did, but you didn't recognize them.  Whatver it is, I have faith that you will come to know what you need to know exactly when and where you need to know it :smile: 


--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


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Offlinepattern
multiplayer

Registered: 07/19/02
Posts: 2,183
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 1 year, 8 months
Re: Sometimes there's evidence only if you want it [Re: Swami]
    #2155399 - 12/03/03 03:44 PM (13 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
What if someone experienced an alien encounter? They wouldnt "go about selectively reading information" nor have an "emotional need to believe", it would just be a simple fact to them.

Quote:

Not true.







You're assuming that the encounters aren't real. If someone had an *actual* alien encounter, then my statement stands.

see the book "Calculating God"


--------------------
man = monkey + mushroom


Edited by pattern (12/03/03 03:51 PM)


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Sometimes there's evidence only if you want it [Re: pattern]
    #2155430 - 12/03/03 03:53 PM (13 years, 4 days ago)

*sigh* The point was not about real or not-real encounters, but the fact that you said people "wouldnt go about selectively reading information" which they do all the time.

I have been at Gulf Breeze, Florida to watch the UFOs. A helicopter flew by and one observer went nuts about seeing a gen-u-wine saucer.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Edited by Swami (12/03/03 04:17 PM)


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Offlinesirreal
devoid
Registered: 01/11/03
Posts: 1,775
Loc: In the borderlands
Last seen: 9 years, 7 months
Re: Sometimes there's evidence only if you want it [Re: Swami]
    #2155457 - 12/03/03 03:59 PM (13 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

Swami said:

I have been at Gulf Breeze, Florida to watch the UFOs. A helicopter flew by and one observer went nuts about seeing a gen-u-wine suacer.





I have seen wine saucers before. They never excited me very much.I prefer hard liquor.


--------------------
I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


Edited by sirreal (12/03/03 04:00 PM)


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Sometimes there's evidence only if you want it [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2155512 - 12/03/03 04:17 PM (13 years, 4 days ago)

Hmmm, well, I know that i used to be one of those people who looked at evidence "objectively" and wasn't very convinced, but in the course of my travels, the evidence piled up and I ran out of floorboards to hide it under.
I have researched things for 25 years objectively (without the erstwhile quotations). I WANTED to believe which actually should have biased my investigation. However, not one single esoteric subject stood up to scrutiny.

Seriously, as of 5 years ago, I was a regular SWAMI.
You may have been a skeptic, but never a Swami.

I laughed and made fun of this orthodox jewish kid in my class
That is plain mean.

I used to be one of those people who was very pompous and proud of himself
No change there.

I had an emotional need to disprove, because of my inferiority complex.
Maybe you should seek help.

When I came into my faith and belief in the occult (terms used real vaguely here for laziness purposes)
More likely for other quite obvious reasons.

Imagine overcoming that kind of emotional barrier!
Whew!

Often times the evidence is personal and cannot be recreated in a display for another person.
Sylvia Browne, Van Prague, John Edward all attempt to create a display. Do you have "faith" in their abilities or do you believe them to be frauds?

And some people just happen to be in the right place at the right time and see solid evidence- but no one ever believes them, because they are like isolated particles in a solvent diluted by bullshitters.
Wrong yet again.

No one...
Wrong. Some people believe them.

They are disbelieved by many for good, SOLID reasons:

People are KNOWN without a doubt to fabricate stories, to lie, boast, exaggerate, to tell yarns, to be mistaken. We have been down this road many times:

Gulf Breeze - model & camera hoax
Roswell - mistaken balloon
1908 Fairie photo - darkroom hoax (admitted by participant)
Loch Ness Photo - model hoax (admitted by participant)
1968 Big Foot 8mm film - man in suit (admitted by participant)
Uri Geller - spoon bending (replicated by many stage magicians)

On and on it goes. Without evidence, why believe any fantastic story?

Some people have accused me of becoming emotionally attached to my arguements. Emotion has nothing to do with it.
Like when you threatened to put a bullet in my head; not an imaginary one, but a real one.

Some of my experiences defy logic, and yet I cannot logically deny that they happened.
No, but you can illogically jump to a conclusion quite well.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleDoctorJ
Stranger
 Arcade Champion: Frogger

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,451
Loc: space
Re: Sometimes there's evidence only if you want it [Re: Swami]
    #2155613 - 12/03/03 04:43 PM (13 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

I have researched things for 25 years objectively (without the erstwhile quotations). I WANTED to believe which actually should have biased my investigation. However, not one single esoteric subject stood up to scrutiny.




Damn, thats too bad.  It seems we are operating from two different data sets.  Yours seems skewed from my perspective, and I'm sure mine seems skewed from your perspective.  Such a pity.

Quote:

That is plain mean




Well, actually it all sprang from the discussion of an Xfiles episode.  It was an episode about kabbalah which i thought was more fantasy than sci-fi, and thus, had no place on the x-files.  This kid went on a tangent about how Kabbalah was real and I was an idiot for thinking it didnt have some rational basis.  Then he was unable to provide one, so i ragged on him pretty hard for it.  But we were friends and remained so afterwards.  I havent seen him in at least 5 years.  I'm sure he doesnt remember it, but I do, and if I ever get the chance, I will apologize.

Quote:

Sylvia Browne, Van Prague, John Edward all attempt to create a display. Do you have "faith" in their abilities or do you believe them to be frauds?





The only one of those names I am familiar with is Sylvia Browne, and I've only seen her very briefly on television.  I dont have enough info on her to have an opinion, but the little info I have and my intuition tell me that she is somewhat gifted, though not as much as she claims. 

Quote:

On and on it goes. Without evidence, why believe any fantastic story?




Without evidence, why believe that all fantastic stories are bullshit?

Quote:

Like when you threatened to put a bullet in my head; not an imaginary one, but a real one.




Reread what i said in that thread and tell me how I used threatening language.  I didn't.
I never meant that as a threat.  You took it as a threat.  If it had been a threat, I would have been banned or punished, no? 

Several objective mods and an admin looked it over and had no problem with it, other than the admin who warned me to watch what I say because it can be taken the wrong way. 

so who is letting emotion make them leap to false assumptions, now?

Seriously, your misrepresentation of the past (and my words by clever editing) is not doing anything for your credibility, SWAMI.  Do you really think that the people on this board are stupid enough to fall for the BS you try to pull?  You're not fooling anyone.

Quote:

I used to be one of those people who was very pompous and proud of himself

No change there.






I wont deny that, but I will say that if you think I'm pompous now, you should have known me back then. 

And also, I'm not pompous to everyone on this board.  Ask around.  Mostly just to you.  You need a dose of your own medicine.  If you cant take it, dont dish it out, sweetheart :smile:




--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Sometimes there's evidence only if you want it [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2155627 - 12/03/03 04:48 PM (13 years, 4 days ago)

am familiar with is Sylvia Browne, and I've only seen her very briefly on television. I dont have enough info on her to have an opinion...

So research on a subject can give one more information - voila! So where is the problem?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinesirreal
devoid
Registered: 01/11/03
Posts: 1,775
Loc: In the borderlands
Last seen: 9 years, 7 months
Re: Sometimes there's evidence only if you want it [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2155639 - 12/03/03 04:52 PM (13 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
  You're not fooling anyone.

 





He fools me once in a while.  :lol: 


--------------------
I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


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