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InvisibleEgo Death
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When a skeptic becomes an evidence and logic dodger!
    #3707314 - 01/31/05 01:52 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

OMG He's back what an idiot!  He said he wouldn't continue the fight.  Well, I lied.  My compassion has returned and is back with vengeance.  Thank you S&P, for teaching me how to make a better debate.

**************************************************************************************

Case 1:
The Pascagoula incident involved two men, nineteen-year-old Calvin Parker and forty-two-year-old Charles Hickson, both of Gautier, Mississippi, who were fishing in the Pascagoula River when they heard a buzzing noise behind them. Both turned and were terrified to see a ten-foot-wide, eight-foot-high, glowing egg-shaped object with blue lights at its front hovering just above the ground about forty feet from the riverbank.  As the, men frozen with fright, watched, adoor appeared in the object,  and three strange Beings floated just above the river towards them.

The Beings had legs but did not use them.  They were about five feet tall, had bullet-shaped heads without necks, slits for mouths; and where their noses or ears would be, they had thin, conical objects sticking out, like carrots from a snowman's head.  They had no eyes, gray, wrinkled skin, round feet, and clawlike hands.  Two of the beings seized Hickson; when the third grabbed Parker, the teenager fainted with fright.  Hickson claimed that when the Beings placed their hands under his arms, his body became numb, and that then they floated him into a brightly lit room in the UFO's interior, where he was subjected to a medical examination with an eyelike device which, like Hickson himself, was floating in midair.  At the end of the examination, the Beings simply left Hickson floating, paralyzed but for his eyes, and went to examine Parker, who, Hickson believed was in another room.  Twenty minutes after Hickson had first observed the UFO, he was floated back outside and released.  He found Parker weeping and praying on the ground near him.  Moments later, the object rose straight up and shot out of sight.

Expecting only ridicule if they were to tell anyone what had happened, Hickson and Parker initially decided to keep quiet; but then, because they felt the government might or ought, to know about it, they telephoned Kessler Air Force Base in Biloxi.  A sergeant there told them to contact the sheriff.  But uncertain about the reception their bizarre story might get from the local law, they drove to the local newspaper office to speak with a reporter.  When they found the office closed, Hickson and Parker felt they had no alternative but to talk to the sheriff.

The sheriff, after listening to their story, put Hickson and Parker in a room wired for sound in the belief that if the two men were left alone, they would reveal their hoax; of course, they did not.  The local press reported their tale; the wire services picked it up; and within several days the Pascagoula close encounter was major news all over the country.  The Aerial Phenomena Research Organisation (APRO), founded in 1952, sent University of California engineering professor James Harder to Mississippi to investigate; J. Allen Hynek, representing the Air Force, also arrived.  Together they interviewed the witnesses.  Harder hypnotized Hickson but had to terminate the session when Hickson became too frightened to continue.

Hickson and Parker both subsequently passed lie detector tests.  Hynek and Harder believed the two men's story.  And Hynek was later quoted as saying, 'There was definately something here that was not terrestrial.'

Case 2:
'A Doubly Witnessed Abduction,' is the account of a women Budd Hopkins calls Linda Cortile, who was abducted from her New York City apartement at 3:15am in late November 1989.  'Accompanied by three aliens,' Hopkins reports, 'Linda was floated out of a window twelve stories above the ground, then up into a hovering UFO.  The event was witnessed by two security agents and the senior political figure they were guarding, as well as by a woman driving across the Brooklyn Bridge.  'The importance of this case is virtually immeasurable,' Hopkins points out, 'as it powerfully supports both the objective reality of UFO abductions and the accuracy of regressive hypnosis as employed with this abductee.'

According to Hopkins, the two security men were driving the political official along South Street near the Brooklyn Bridge beneath the FDR Drive in Manhattan when their cars electrical system inexplicably cut out and they coasted to a stop.  They could detect a reddish-orange glow through their cars windshield.  At first, the security agent Hopkin calls Dan thought the glow was the rising sun; but almost immediately he was not facing East but due West.  Peering up through the windshield, Dan and his partner 'Richard', saw a fifty-foot-wide, oval-shaped object with rotating colored lights hovering above a fifteen-story apartment building at the street corner about five hundred feet ahead.

Richard pulled a pair of binoculars out of the cars glove compartment, and, as he watched, the craft - now making a barely audible low humming sound - descended until it was level with the top of the apat-ment building.  All sound then stopped.  A bright beam of blue-white light shot out from the bottom of the craft, and then, to the horror of the three men in the car, they saw a woman in a white nightgown float out of a window on the apartment buildings twelfth floor, accompanied by three small creatures with big heads... (It goes on)

'Please respect our credibility at work,' Richard wrote Hopkins.  'We cannot let our identities be made public.'  He expressed his shock at what he had seen, adding, 'This whole situation flies in the face of everthing I've ever believed or knew about.'  He wrote of the stages of anger, fear, and embarrassment he had passed through.  'The manner they took her drove us nuts!  What could we do to help her? Who was she? Was she one of them?'

Hopkins thought Richards question 'Was she one of them?' a particularly interesting reaction.  'Its a measure of how much they pushed the whole thing away,' he later told me, 'to assume - at least on one level - that maybe she's one of them.  Its almost as if they're saying, "I don't want to think she's a human being and we should have done something." Its easier to think of her as part of the whole business.'

Case 3:
'UFO's in history'

Swiss scholar Samuel Coccius witnesses 'numerous large black discs in the sky' in Nuremberg 1561.  He states 'Suddenly, they started racing towards the sun with great speed, with some turned towards each other as though in combat.  Some were seen to turn a fiery red and then vanish.'

April 19, 1897, in Leroy, Kansas.  That night Alexander Hamilton, a former congressman turned farmer, was awakened by sounds of disturbance among his cattle.  He quickly dressed, went outside, and 'to my utter astonishment,' he subsequently reported, he observed 'an airship descending over my cow lot.'  Hamilton rushed back inside to awake his son and his hired man.  The men picked up axes and raced outside.  Hamilton estimated that the 'airship' was approximately three hundred feet long.  As they watched, the craft descended until it was no more than thirty feet off the ground.  'It was brightly lit within,' Hamilton noted, he added thsat the undercarriage 'was occupied by six of the strangest beings I ever saw.'

During the battle between the Saxons and the Franks at Sigisburg in AD, 776 fiery aerial phenomena appeared overhead in the shape of military shields.

In AD 1118 Emporer Constantine observed a fiery cross in the sky.

I can continue these cases forever but believe the major points should now be apparent.

Other UFO/Alien cases I suggest you research, should you take interest:
Travis Walton Incident
Barney and Betty Hill
Foo Fighters



If you attempt to debunk the entire of this huge phenomena as mass hallucination, deception etc then I will asume you prefer to remain ignorance due to fear of the unknown.  Oh and personally I do not think all crop circles are Alien made, they are man made, and I do not believe every account of alien abduction ever recorded either.

Personal attacks will be ignored this time.  I do , however, refrain the right re-quote this.

I have already realised which parts of this text Hue is most likely to attack and I have already realised the methods some people will attempt to use to subtley debunk this, so try and surprise me!

I would not be surprised if Swami's only contribution here is humor or if he ommits himself from the entire debate, this time!

I find it funny how people constantly state "I have never seen evidence for extra-terrestrials visiting Earth" and then go on to justify their statement with basic logic or current human science, completely ignoring the years of overwhelming evidence such as the above.  Who has really researched this phenomena and who just thinks they have?  I'll let you decide.

I also would like to point out, I often hear people claim that UFO's and aliens are a new phenomena only recorded since the first famous media sightings.  This is a kind of chicken or egg arguement, however, in this case the literature clearly states that there have been UFO/Alien sightings since man could ever record what he saw.  Christopher Columbus and Alexander the great and his army both recorded in their personal logs seeing UFO's, not to mention the countless drawrings/pictures of Aliens/UFO's and entire Tribe based on Aliens/UFO's.  I don't think after the show here last week anybody can claim that people wouldn't with-hold information for fear of ridicule, either.

What is also interesting is how individuals will alter details of their encounter to match their outlook on reality, of course, this is very human in its nature and should not be used as an excuse to discount such a huge phenomena.

Cases were quoted precisely from the book:
Close encounters of the fourth kind
by
C.D.B. Bryan

Suggested reading:
Above Top Secret: The Worldwide UFO Cover-up
by
Timothy Good

Believer and non-beleiver alike, this is a subject that can no longer be ignored.


A few quotes from histories great skepics:
Lord Kelvin British physicist - "heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible."

Robert Millikan Nobel Prize physicist - "There is no likelyhood that man can ever tap the power of the atom."

Dr F.R. Moulton University of Chicago astronomer - "there is no hope for the fanciful idea of reaching the moon because of insurmountable barriers to escaping the Earth's gravity."



Have fun trying to suppress the harsh reality!  :grin:
Do you believe that E.T has visited the Earth?
You may choose only one
Yes
No


Votes accepted from (01/31/05 01:51 PM) to (No end specified)
View the results of this poll



--------------------


Edited by danoEoboy (02/02/05 12:33 PM)


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Offlinethe_phoenix
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Re: UFO's DON'T EXIST & THEY ARE NOT EXTRA-TERRESTRIAL! [Re: Ego Death]
    #3707443 - 01/31/05 02:22 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I believe that UFOs exist to the extent we perceive them, as manifestations of humanity's collective unconscious, symbolic of our collective fear and apprehension of the Outside, of everything beyond our present (and variable) level of understanding.

Would that be a "yes" or a "no"?


Edited by the_phoenix (01/31/05 02:23 PM)


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OfflineGomp
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Re: UFO's DON'T EXIST & THEY ARE NOT EXTRA-TERRESTRIAL! [Re: the_phoenix]
    #3707503 - 01/31/05 02:37 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

wheter or not, there are Unidentified Flying Objects...
... ..hum... is UFO something else in American expression?


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Disclaimer!?


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InvisibleEgo Death
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Re: UFO's DON'T EXIST & THEY ARE NOT EXTRA-TERRESTRIAL! [Re: the_phoenix]
    #3707506 - 01/31/05 02:38 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Being how religous this world is.

Wouldn't the fear materalize as a devil or something.

When I saw my first UFO craft, I had never heard of them. It was only when my mother explained that it must of been aliens and I started reading books that the fear of what I had encountered hit me.


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InvisibleCosm
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Re: UFO's DON'T EXIST & THEY ARE NOT EXTRA-TERRESTRIAL! [Re: Ego Death]
    #3707569 - 01/31/05 03:03 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

the human race is extraterrestrial,originally.

Adam and eve are space travelers who go from livable planet to livable planet creating life.it happens all the time, and has been going on god only knows how long.long before we humans here on earth ever existed.yes there are other human like beings throughout the universe perhaps even other galaxies.there are also other living beings who are not human like.many entities exist.


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InvisibleEgo Death
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Re: UFO's DON'T EXIST & THEY ARE NOT EXTRA-TERRESTRIAL! [Re: Cosm]
    #3707581 - 01/31/05 03:10 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Interesting but I still prefer the micro-organisms frozen on asteroids theory.

I think that would also possibly explain why so many humanoid beings are seen, that is, the same basic DNA building blocks for evolution.


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OfflineZekebomb
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Re: UFO's DON'T EXIST & THEY ARE NOT EXTRA-TERRESTRIAL! [Re: Ego Death]
    #3707724 - 01/31/05 03:50 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

danoEoboy said:
When I saw my first UFO craft, I had never heard of them.




how old were you? were you living in the basement at the time?


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InvisiblePaou
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Re: UFO's DON'T EXIST & THEY ARE NOT EXTRA-TERRESTRIAL! [Re: Cosm]
    #3707755 - 01/31/05 03:56 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Cosm said:
the human race is extraterrestrial,originally.

Adam and eve are space travelers who go from livable planet to livable planet creating life.it happens all the time, and has been going on god only knows how long.long before we humans here on earth ever existed.yes there are other human like beings throughout the universe perhaps even other galaxies.there are also other living beings who are not human like.many entities exist.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: UFO's DON'T EXIST & THEY ARE NOT EXTRA-TERRESTRIAL! [Re: Paou]
    #3707862 - 01/31/05 04:26 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

UFOs do exist. UFO = Unidentified Flying Object...not UFO = spaceship. Your choosing to view the world completely through the eyes of pop Internet culture instead of science is your business though.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: UFO's DON'T EXIST & THEY ARE NOT EXTRA-TERRESTRIAL! [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3707916 - 01/31/05 04:36 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

nice argument :rolleyes:

dano.. aliens are not to be feared


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: UFO's DON'T EXIST & THEY ARE NOT EXTRA-TERRESTRIAL! [Re: Shroomism]
    #3707942 - 01/31/05 04:41 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

My argument addresses the tendancy of people to interpret what they have seen based on what they WANT to see instead of evidence. I used to write safety reports for a living. Two people see the same thing and but give conflicting accounts based on what they wanted to happen. Self interest and fantasy is playing entirely too big a role when one sees a UFO and immediately declares it a spaceship.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: UFO's DON'T EXIST & THEY ARE NOT EXTRA-TERRESTRIAL! [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3707972 - 01/31/05 04:48 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

You give very little credit to human logic. Or at least, the logic of humans that don't agree with you. What of the police officers and government officials that claim what they saw could not be any modern aircraft or behaved in manners completely impossible to any known aircraft we possess? You claim someone sees a UFO and IMMEDIATELY declares it a spaceship, as if you were there, in that persons mind, and you know for a fact they didn't think it over. That's bunk. You automatically discredit anyone claiming to have contact with UFOs or extra-terrestrials as "fantasy". I'm sorry Hue, but there is a lot more to suggest these sightings and contacts are a LOT more than some fantasy of a few delusional people. You are in no position to discredit someones reality.


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OfflineLearyfan
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Re: UFO's DON'T EXIST & THEY ARE NOT EXTRA-TERRESTRIAL! [Re: Ego Death]
    #3708213 - 01/31/05 05:39 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Thanks danEoboy. I have weighed a lifetime of UFO evidence and have come to a conclusion. I find the evidence overwhelming and as a member of the jury of human beings, I find extraterrestrials guilty of existing.





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--------------------------------


Mp3 of the month: The Remaining Few - Painted Air



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Invisibledorkus
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Re: UFO's DON'T EXIST & THEY ARE NOT EXTRA-TERRESTRIAL! [Re: Learyfan]
    #3708612 - 01/31/05 06:34 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)



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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: UFO's DON'T EXIST & THEY ARE NOT EXTRA-TERRESTRIAL! [Re: Shroomism]
    #3708695 - 01/31/05 06:48 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

The individual in question is using emotion...not logic to draw his conclusions. This is obvious from his testimony.

"You automatically discredit anyone claiming to have contact with UFOs or extra-terrestrials as "fantasy"."

No I do not. I am not a believer in extraterrestrial visitation by aliens, but I will hear a compelling case for it. I will not dismiss all of this type phenomenon as total bunk, I am convinced there is more to it, but there is no reason at this point to assume it is the work of extraterrestrials until more credible evidence is made common knowledge.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: UFO's DON'T EXIST & THEY ARE NOT EXTRA-TERRESTRIAL! [Re: Shroomism]
    #3708708 - 01/31/05 06:50 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

You give very little credit to human logic.

Seeing as how both UFOnauts and skeptics will basically agree that AT LEAST 90-95% of all sightings are misidentifications, methinks you give too much credit to human perception.

The fact that many STILL bring up the MEIER case, even though his videos show an object on a string circling a pine tree and his "alien" was a model's photograph from a magazine, show the gullibilty and coloration of the believer's mind.

Seeing as how there is not the slightest evidence that UFOs came from another star system - and on -and on.  :rolleyes:

BTW, how does a light in the sky help one to live a happier fuller life? Oh, wait! They don't!


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleEgo Death
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Re: UFO's DON'T EXIST & THEY ARE NOT EXTRA-TERRESTRIAL! [Re: Swami]
    #3709100 - 01/31/05 08:00 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Hue said:
"Self interest and fantasy is playing entirely too big a role when one sees a UFO and immediately declares it a spaceship."

Dan Said:
"What is also interesting is how individuals will alter details of their encounter to match their outlook on reality, of course, this is very human in its nature and should not be used as an excuse to discount such a huge phenomena."

BTW, if its not a spaceship then what is it a giant floating turd? :grin:

AT THE MOMENT BOTH SKEPTICS HERE SWAMI AND HUE HAVE OPTED FOR THE MASS HALLUCINATION ANSWER!


--------------------


Edited by danoEoboy (01/31/05 08:15 PM)


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InvisibleEgo Death
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Re: UFO's DON'T EXIST & THEY ARE NOT EXTRA-TERRESTRIAL! [Re: Swami]
    #3709134 - 01/31/05 08:04 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
methinks you give too much credit to human perception.





Swami, you yourself appear to be good at discerning logic from your senses.

So if you are good then why would you think the majority of other people not to be good?

Are you special?


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: UFO's DON'T EXIST & THEY ARE NOT EXTRA-TERRESTRIAL! [Re: Ego Death]
    #3709149 - 01/31/05 08:06 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Yes floating turds are a much more logical answer than flying spacecraft


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: UFO's DON'T EXIST & THEY ARE NOT EXTRA-TERRESTRIAL! [Re: Swami]
    #3709154 - 01/31/05 08:07 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Shroomism, love the tetragon!

I think it is absurd for someone to somehwat understand the length of existenece and size of this universe, or even multiple universes, and still think that in all that time, and all that space, only one tiny rock in one glalaxy of hundreds/thousands/millions would sustain intelligent life?
Hmmm, i think that is harder t o believe than aliens existing.... I have never seen a UFO, so i cant say if they exist or not. probability is 50/50 about. Our race has developed to the point of space travel and we are relativly new in this universe. CHances are that another race could be more advanced and able to make what we call UFO's by being older than us.


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