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OfflinesTePpInGoNsToNeS
Influ(x)
Registered: 06/06/03
Posts: 10
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 13 years, 11 days
Which came first...?
    #2029355 - 10/21/03 06:05 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

A close friend and i were deeply enveloped in a philosophical conversation and he brought up the question of, "which came first, the effect or the cause"... and for the past week this has been troubling me
If we take the universe back to the very very very beginning it had to start with an effect, but yet an effect can't exist without a cause-

also, from reading a different post on here another question arose, "which came first, matter or conciousness"

PeaCe[<]


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Offlinepattern
multiplayer

Registered: 07/19/02
Posts: 2,183
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Re: Which came first...? [Re: sTePpInGoNsToNeS]
    #2029362 - 10/21/03 06:07 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

What makes you sure that one of them had to come first?


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man = monkey + mushroom


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OfflinesTePpInGoNsToNeS
Influ(x)
Registered: 06/06/03
Posts: 10
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 13 years, 11 days
Re: Which came first...? [Re: pattern]
    #2029375 - 10/21/03 06:13 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Everything is the effect of something (or so i think)



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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: Which came first...? [Re: sTePpInGoNsToNeS]
    #2029568 - 10/21/03 07:12 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

There cannot be a first effect without a first cause, at least, if you believe in determinism. So if you believe the effect was first, you can't be right (again, if you believe in determinism).
So either there was a first cause, but if there was a first cause, what is it?
Or there was no first cause and the universe has existed forever.

EDIT: removing mistakes caused by a tired self.


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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


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InvisibleZero7a1
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Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
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Re: Which came first...? [Re: Alan Stone]
    #2029603 - 10/21/03 07:26 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

how can everything not exist at some point or another? What would be left for there to be anything the next time around? I seem to think the universe has existed for forever.


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What?


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InvisibleTODAY
Battletoad
Male

Registered: 09/25/03
Posts: 10,218
Loc: Metropolis City, USA
Re: Which came first...? [Re: Zero7a1]
    #2030272 - 10/21/03 10:22 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

the universe and theories of it's origin cannot be fully explained because it has a paradoxil beginning...that is, at some point SOMETHING had to come from NOTHING, or maybe that is all our human minds can percieve. maybe we don't have the capacity to imagine something from nothing or maybe the beginning was a dimensional thing that exceeds our dimensional knowledge so we can't understand it.

what is at the end of the unvierse? surely there has to be some sort of border between the expanding universe and nothingness. but what is nothingness? it must be something right???...well this is just something our minds can't understand. the infinite is not a topic our minds can grasp.


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ca'rouse (k-rouz)
intr.v.
To engage in boisterous, drunken merrymaking.


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OfflineLightningfractal
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Registered: 06/24/03
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Re: Which came first...? [Re: TODAY]
    #2030383 - 10/21/03 10:47 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

The thing is that "time" is just our mind's perception of reality. It makes more sense that there really IS no time, and that everything just exists eternally. Just as there could have been no beginning, nor end; there can be no edge of the universe, but limitless space. our limited existances refuse to allow us to see things as they really are, limitless. Because reality really IS limitless, we sometimes get the feeling that we are living in a movie, or are boxed in.


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Hi how's it going, wanna kick Heroin basically painlessly on your own, in your own house, without any government "help" ,or the "help" of a crazy condescending, judgmental medical doctor? Read this:

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Offlinepattern
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Registered: 07/19/02
Posts: 2,183
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Re: Which came first...? [Re: TODAY]
    #2031019 - 10/22/03 01:17 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

> at some point SOMETHING had to come from NOTHING

I disagree. I believe there was always Something.


--------------------
man = monkey + mushroom


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InvisibleTODAY
Battletoad
Male

Registered: 09/25/03
Posts: 10,218
Loc: Metropolis City, USA
Re: Which came first...? [Re: pattern]
    #2031128 - 10/22/03 01:54 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

pattern said:
> at some point SOMETHING had to come from NOTHING

I disagree. I believe there was always Something.




how is it possible that something always existed without a beginning? i know what you are saying but i can't even fathom an eternal existence of SOMETHING without a start of some sort...i mean really, something had to start somewhere right?

i'm sure this pattern happens in nature too, and that is the best way to understand things. humans are created when an egg is fertilized...that is our beginning, if your theory was true then wouldn't we have always existed too?

patterns in nature are how we understand many things because nature repeats itself. if the universe is natural it must have been created too right? UGHHHH...even as i write this i keep seeing your POV and i can't discredit you, lol, but i can't credit myself either. it is just something that we will NEVER be able to understand or know.

however, modern science does support the BIG BANG(start of the universe) with a piece of evidence called "The Red Shift".

The Red Shift has something to do with the way we can look at the farthest stars and notice their shift in the spectrum over time and this shows that the furthest stars we can see are moving away from our viewpoint (earth) faster than stars are that are closer to us. this suggests that in the beginning of the universe there was an explosion that threw out matter from a central point and that matter kept moving away from the center, faster on the outer part of the explosion and slower in the middle part of the explosion. this trend continued to expand the universe and has shaped the way the universe is layed out today.

^^HUH, i hope you can understand that because i'm not sure i explained it right, lol. i'm gonna go to sleep now before i ramble further.


--------------------

ca'rouse (k-rouz)
intr.v.
To engage in boisterous, drunken merrymaking.


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OfflinePhluck
Carpal Tunnel
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Registered: 04/11/99
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Re: Which came first...? [Re: sTePpInGoNsToNeS]
    #2031195 - 10/22/03 02:12 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

If you think of time as a dimension, then we end up with one huge solid set of stuff.

So there is no before and after, in that case.


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Offlinemntlfngrs
The Art of Casterbation
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Registered: 07/18/02
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Re: Which came first...? [Re: TODAY]
    #2035117 - 10/23/03 05:09 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Yes, the Dopoler shift states that light coming from something moving away from you will be shifted to the red and light from something moving tward you will shift to the blue. Incidentaly this is true in radar aplications aswell. Anyway, the light from all the visable galaxies is shifted to the red.

So the theory is that if everything is moving apart then it follows that it was much closer together at some point. Depending on the existance of Hawkings "dark matter" there might also be a coresponding cruch. This could result in an infinite bang cruch cycle. But other theories exist. Rather than a crunch, there could be a near miss crunch where everything flies by and out the other side into another expansion.

I was thinking about this the other day and wondered if a bang / crunch scenerio would work on a larger scale. What if there were an infinite number of supermassive black holes that are so widely spaced that a universe could expande untill it goes dark and still not have reached one. These holes would be just shy of the amount of mass required to "Bang". Eventualy enough stray particles from previous universes would fall into a hole and push it into a bang. This would eliminate the need for a dark force. And the hole at the center of our galaxy may eventualy collect enough stray matter from other universes that it would spark a nex cycle.

Ok, so the fact that holes can evaporate throws a kink in it. I'm just trying to figure a way out of a one trip universe because if it is one way I think I might have to believe in god, otherwise what is the first cause or creation?

Perhaps after our univer


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Be all and you'll be to end all


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