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Re: Is Jesus God? [Re: FishOilTheKid] * 1
    #20279405 -

There are evil forces. No question. They rule the world. Most people are just the unknowing pawns - but even those who somewhat know, don't really realize.

That is the way of Satan.


--------------------
The Day of the Lord has come like a thief in the night. -- It is there but no one knows it.

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Re: Is Jesus God? [Re: Deviate]
    #20279644 -

I think I more understand where you are coming from now. There is a radical difference between us because of cosmogony

You follow or believe in a patriarchal cosmogony, with 'God' or the 'Father' at the top of a hierarchy and who is transcendent above 'his creation'. And this is why often from believers in your story you will hear the admonition "Love the creator and not 'his' creation". And thus I can see this reflected in your warning not to get too 'obsessed' with the magic mushrooms, or other psychedelics

And also, I am familiar that with your belief there is the promise of escape from the 'material' plane to 'life everlasting' or 'eternal life' which you would call liberation. And this is why you depend on a Jesus of Nazareth being an actual historical person, because this is what is claimed to have happened to him. That he was crucified and on the third day was physically resurrected and returned above to his father

Well, my story is far different than that. I am aware that your story suppresses a far older story of a Great Mother who pre-existed your 'father' myth. She is not really even mentioned in the Genesis 'creation' myth, and just inferred as the 'Deep'

So what does this mean for the cosmogony of this? Well there is no dualistic separation between heaven and nature, or spirit and nature. There is no battle between light and dark, good and evil, because those terms are in reality part of a dynamic. So there is no such thing as eternal life UNLESS it is understood to be in continuum with temporal sense of life. This is why when I experience psychedelics and feel a sense of eternity, and then 'come down' to 'ordinary' life. I am not thinking 'oh, HOW to get back to that. I have lost it'. No, I realize that life is always change and there is no stasis--which is what patriarchal beliefs try and claim with their everlasting hells and everlasting eternal life in heaven etc--and this is why ekstasis or ecstasy can be so healing. Because in ecstasy you are right on the wave of this. You have stepped out of a static sense of yourself. This static sense of your self is mind controlled into you by an interlocking grid of myths perpetuated by the patriarchy. Not just its religions, but its 'mystery schools', philosophy, art, 'education', mass media, myth of mental illness, scientism, and so on. We are inundated since we are very little with the matrix of patriarchal civilization which very much does not want us to feel a sense of liberation and communion with nature. That is the LAST thing it wants. And this is a big reason it has been so savage with indigenous peoples who have had that sense of sacred communion with nature!

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Re: Is Jesus God? [Re: endogenous]
    #20279700 -

Oh yes, yes indeed. Very dark and evil beings are currently ruling planet earth as they get unsuspecting human beings to do their bidding unknowingly. That is why our society, and indeed most of the societies the earth has seen, are so full of negative energy, corruption and misdeed. The divine creator who made the world, is capable of making a far better world than this, would we be willing to cooperate with his laws. But we humans were not made evil. Yes, after we fell from grace we became prone to sin and evil doing, so much so that it may appear as though we are inherently evil if one momentarily forgets all the good there is the world.

However, a cursory glance at humanity reveals that human biengs tend to act in whatever way they perceive as being in their best interests. Now, it doesn't take any great genius to realize that much of the evil committed on planet earth is really not in the best interests of anyone for a variety of reasons. For instance, most criminals end up being caught, even if they don't get caught they often live in fear of being caught. If you think about, dark and evil acts, like murder are committed by people who somehow believe that they and their own needs are more important than those of others, so much more important in fact that they are willing to kill others to get what they think they need or want. Does this seem like clear thinking to you? Or in the case of serial killers, since they usually gain nothing materially from their murders and risk everything, it is obvious that they are suffering from dark and twisted violent and/or sexual urges.

So what can we ascertain from this? I believe we can ascertain that people are influenced or tricked into doing evil, mistakenly believing that it will bring them happiness when it will actually bring them the opposite. Jeffrey Dahlmer strangled young boys, held them captive and drilled holes in their heads and poured acid into them. He also ate their remains. Now considering that God created man good, or perhaps even not considering that, I simply refuse to believe that Jeffrey Dahlmer simply "chose" to do that as if one day he thought "hey I think it would be in my best interest to become a cannabilistic serial killer. yeah, that's what I would like to do with my life". Nor was he simply completely insane, for he was capable of acting quite sane. So how do you explain his behavior? in my opinion, the influence of demonic entities is a necessary consideration. Demons place these dark thoughts and urges into the minds of susceptible men (each man will be haunted by his own personal demons, which will attack whatever his personal weakness might be. and the demons are relentless. A priest explained itthusly, he said that if you look at an alcoholic for example, the demons are not satisfied by one drink, nor two or three or even 20. No, the demons in fact will not stop until that person becomes so alcoholic that their entire life is destroyed and theyve taken down as many people with them as possible. Again, this is behavior clearly not in someone's best interest, and yet is so commonplace on planet earth that there are like 20 AA meetings within any 20 mile radius of a highly populated area anywhere in the country!



Quote:
I am making sense. When and if I do evil, I take responsibility for it. I don't say the demons or devil made me do it. I CHOOSE to do it because of my thinking. thinking which very well may be influenced BY such beliefs. So THAT means I must critically investigate those beliefs, which I see as fear-based mind control. And they affect your psyche. How you experience reality

And all your lingo is biblical. By the way man, I am not being unfriendly. I am frank, sure;  but I find you very amusing and intriguing. some of your posts crack me up LOL

But I challenge your sureity that these experiences you have are real. Does this mean I am anti spiritual? No. I have had an OBE where I have interacted with entities/fairies/spirits -whatever you want to term these beings. BUT I did not get this sense of evil you are always pushing. I also see nature as full of spirit.


So if you interacted with entities why is it so difficult for you to believe there might also be evil entities? I didn't encounter any evil entities until the first time I encountered an evil entity. There is a first time for everything and so its stupid to assume that something cant happen or doesnt happen just because it hasnt happened to you just yet.

God did make thus planet all screwed up like this, it was done by man. But even fallen man, as stupid and selfish as he is, could never have screwed up this bad either without demonic influence because of the goodness in his heart and the reasoning ability in his head. Through their cleverness, the demons were able to neutralize both of these safety measures, blinding man to the consequences of his actions and tricking him into committing acts of great evil. THis is why Jesus prayed "forgive them Father, for they know what they do".

And FYI this has nothing to do with taking responsibility. When a demon makes you do something, it doesnt absolve you of responsibility because a demon cannot force you to do something without you being compliant. As I explained, demons operate by playing off man's own weaknessness. They trick him into thinking what he is doing is in his best interests. But it is your responsibility that you got tricked. Society has always recognized this, considering that the devil made me do it has never been considered a valid defense in court. So is it that you dont recognize it?

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Re: Is Jesus God? [Re: zzripz]
    #20279743 -

zzripz said:
I think I more understand where you are coming from now. There is a radical difference between us because of cosmogony

You follow or believe in a patriarchal cosmogony, with 'God' or the 'Father' at the top of a hierarchy and who is transcendent above 'his creation'. And this is why often from believers in your story you will hear the admonition "Love the creator and not 'his' creation". And thus I can see this reflected in your warning not to get too 'obsessed' with the magic mushrooms, or other psychedelics

And also, I am familiar that with your belief there is the promise of escape from the 'material' plane to 'life everlasting' or 'eternal life' which you would call liberation. And this is why you depend on a Jesus of Nazareth being an actual historical person, because this is what is claimed to have happened to him. That he was crucified and on the third day was physically resurrected and returned above to his father

Well, my story is far different than that. I am aware that your story suppresses a far older story of a Great Mother who pre-existed your 'father' myth. She is not really even mentioned in the Genesis 'creation' myth, and just inferred as the 'Deep'

So what does this mean for the cosmogony of this? Well there is no dualistic separation between heaven and nature, or spirit and nature. There is no battle between light and dark, good and evil, because those terms are in reality part of a dynamic. So there is no such thing as eternal life UNLESS it is understood to be in continuum with temporal sense of life. This is why when I experience psychedelics and feel a sense of eternity, and then 'come down' to 'ordinary' life. I am not thinking 'oh, HOW to get back to that. I have lost it'. No, I realize that life is always change and there is no stasis--which is what patriarchal beliefs try and claim with their everlasting hells and everlasting eternal life in heaven etc--and this is why ekstasis or ecstasy can be so healing. Because in ecstasy you are right on the wave of this. You have stepped out of a static sense of yourself. This static sense of your self is mind controlled into you by an interlocking grid of myths perpetuated by the patriarchy. Not just its religions, but its 'mystery schools', philosophy, art, 'education', mass media, myth of mental illness, scientism, and so on. We are inundated since we are very little with the matrix of patriarchal civilization which very much does not want us to feel a sense of liberation and communion with nature. That is the LAST thing it wants. And this is a big reason it has been so savage with indigenous peoples who have had that sense of sacred communion with nature!


Yes, precisely. I agree with everything you have said here.

Quote:
So what does this mean for the cosmogony of this? Well there is no dualistic separation between heaven and nature, or spirit and nature. There is no battle between light and dark, good and evil, because those terms are in reality part of a dynamic.


Yes, I am familiar with these ideas but you see though your cosmology may be perfectly valid, that doesn't mean all other cosmologies are false and furthermore, you cannot go mixing cosmologies. For example, you cannot simply tell me that there is no battle between good and evil, because from a certain perspective there most certainly is a battle between good and evil.

I understand that is possible to perceive life in an entirely different manner, wherein everything takes on a different meaning and there is no battle between good and evil. A different cosmology as you put it. I have had such experiences myself and I don't deny that that particular perspective is another possible viewpoint on the One. However, I found myself more attracted to the cosmology that admits the existence of good and evil, light and dark. These things are ultimately transcended in liberation of course.

I should note that Ramana Maharshi stated that there could be no spiritual teaching that would be fitting for all people. This is because "the truth" when being expressed in words, is relative to whatever beliefs one has adopted. This fact, has been almost entirely forgotten by Western Christianity. The Western Church forgot this and came to believe its doctrines represented some kind of universal, independent truth, rather than simply being a means for undoing the beliefs people had adopted which made them feel separated from God. You might be interested in this article: http://www.romanity.org/htm/rom.02.en.the_cure_of_the_neurobiological_sickness_of_rel.02.htm

Edited by Deviate (07/16/14 04:13 AM)

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Re: Is Jesus God? [Re: Deviate]
    #20279776 -

:thumbup:

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Re: Is Jesus God? [Re: Deviate]
    #20280095 -

Quote:
So if you interacted with entities why is it so difficult for you to believe there might also be evil entities? I didn't encounter any evil entities until the first time I encountered an evil entity. There is a first time for everything and so its stupid to assume that something cant happen or doesnt happen just because it hasnt happened to you just yet.


Because of what I am trying to communicate, that there is no such thing as static good and static evil which are independent entities.

Rather we have learnt to conceptualize 'good' and 'evil', through dualistic conditioning via patriarchal thinking etc, and from there assume that they exist as entities apart in reality, or states or potentials of experience which have been intellectually abstracted out of a dynamic whole

As you say about 'evil' people. A person is not wholly evil or wholly good. There are differing dynamics. A dog who is treated badly may become 'vicious' and attack you as soon as you go to stroke it. Is it possessed by en 'evil demon' or is it the abuse and lack of love which has caused the fear in it?

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Re: Is Jesus God? [Re: zzripz] * 1
    #20280260 -

That is gibberish.  These entities have free will and some choose to love and guide and support and others break you down and laugh while they destroy your life.

Come off it!  They are not an invention of man but the spiritual world which you claim to have experience with.

It's real dude and you can rationalize your points all day but you are lacking in your knowledge of the transcendent space populated by good and evil.

Do you believe that a mysterious fruit in some long lost garden could reveal this?

Yes is the answer regardless!

You advocate the use of psychs but are missing the point that they are the calling card of the spirits.

And again they do what they want to people.  If you don't want to face the duality that in fact exists just call it something else like 'bad' and you won't have to admit to evil.

Example: shoving dense energy up someone's ass so that they feel they are being raped and violated sexually so 'they' can feed off that kind of shit is what?  Not good intent is it?  So what would you call it?  And how would you make the distinction between Those and the others of love and kindness?

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Re: Is Jesus God? [Re: FishOilTheKid] * 1
    #20280265 -

And if you resort to this being just hallucination then you really have no clue!

I know you want the world to fit your concept of it but that is mere projection on your part.

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Re: Is Jesus God? [Re: FishOilTheKid]
    #20280402 -

I will tell you again. I do not share your paranoid worldview, and I would challenge it because I don't want you or others to either. I have tried to explain but you just will not accept because you think you know it all. A clue to understanding and getting out of that destructive mindset is mythology. You find these beliefs and they have a patriarchal his-story. The belief in wholly evil spirits begins with Zoroaster.

Next you will be telling me there is a Devil and everlasting hell, and babies not baptized will go there for ever and ever and ever. Now, some people believe that. Do you? If not why not?

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Re: Is Jesus God? [Re: FishOilTheKid]
    #20280436 -

and also, do not underestimate beliefs actually manifesting physiological effects. There is evidence of people who are obsessed with their belief in the crucifixion of Jesus actually affecting physical scars in their hands known as stigmata. Whether this actually happens because of the subconscious we don't know, but we can get a hint if we look at what hypnosis can do. A famous case where a person had a very serious skin desiease--a crusty scale on his body, and hypnotic suggestion healed it.

ALSO placebo. This is when people assume they have pills etc that are really sugar pills but they are told they will cure --whatever--and this actually happens. Power of the mind

So think about it. IF you are part of an oppressive belief system all round your head telling you that the devil and his demons can possess you, then more than likely some people are going to feel this.

Same is so with the mental illness myth--though I am not claiming your making it up. But once a person is told by the dr priest that they have a disease--whatever label they get. Nore than not they are going to feel they do. So it can work both ways

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Re: Is Jesus God? [Re: zzripz]
    #20280521 -

zzripz said:
Quote:
So if you interacted with entities why is it so difficult for you to believe there might also be evil entities? I didn't encounter any evil entities until the first time I encountered an evil entity. There is a first time for everything and so its stupid to assume that something cant happen or doesnt happen just because it hasnt happened to you just yet.


Because of what I am trying to communicate, that there is no such thing as static good and static evil which are independent entities.

Rather we have learnt to conceptualize 'good' and 'evil', through dualistic conditioning via patriarchal thinking etc, and from there assume that they exist as entities apart in reality, or states or potentials of experience which have been intellectually abstracted out of a dynamic whole


They do exist as potentials of experience which have been intellectually abstracted out of a dynamic whole. But evil is more than just a thought or an idea, as I said, evil can be best defined as a lack of good. Or we could say that the mind operating under auspicious intentions is good and the mind operating under inauspicious intentions is evil. This is because evil, unlike good is not sustainable, because it is based on a violation of the laws which allow creation to sustain itself. For instance, lets compare the farmer vs the thief. Theoretically, if everyone on earth made their living as a farmer earth's population could sustain itself. But what if everyone on earth tried to make their living as a thief? Obviously, this would not be sustainable because evil can only sustain itself by taking from good and so once it runs out of good to take from, it dies. In other words, if no one grew food anymore, from whom would the thief steal? Now in your cosmology you might understand all this in a different way, but you cannot pretend to tell me that this destructive principle which I am calling evil doesn't exist. It clearly does. How would you feel if I broke into your house and stole all of your stuff? would that be alright with you? Or what if you ran into Jeffrey Dahlmer while he was attempting to create his zombies? Would you just walk right on by and mind your own business or would you say "hey wait a minute, what this guy is doing is evil. I'ma call the police"?

Quote:
As you say about 'evil' people. A person is not wholly evil or wholly good. There are differing dynamics. A dog who is treated badly may become 'vicious' and attack you as soon as you go to stroke it. Is it possessed by en 'evil demon' or is it the abuse and lack of love which has caused the fear in it?


How can you say a person is not wholly evil or wholly good if you don't believe in evil in the first place? Of course I agree with this, I just don't see how you can say it if you don't yourself acknowledge evil and understand what it means. Fear makes a person more susceptible to evil influences.

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Re: Is Jesus God? [Re: zzripz] * 1
    #20280558 -

Quote:
his demons can possess you, then more than likely some people are going to feel this.


This is the reality/possibility of psychedelic usage even evidenced on these boards.

Quote:
The belief in wholly evil spirits begins with Zoroaster


Again I'm not believing in beliefs of the past to come up with this shit.  It is happening to me on a daily basis and I listen to them and hear them and talk to them.

And its not a 'worldview' it is my life that is happening here and I'm just sharing the actuality of extended contact with nonhuman intelligences that goes on in my particular case.

Its not history man.  Its my daily life.

Its funny that you call it paranoid because I'm really not just reporting on experience that was arrived at through psilocybin and amanita.

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Re: Is Jesus God? [Re: endogenous]
    #20280562 -

endogenous said:
There are evil forces. No question. They rule the world. Most people are just the unknowing pawns - but even those who somewhat know, don't really realize.

That is the way of Satan.


:thumbup:

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Re: Is Jesus God? [Re: zzripz]
    #20280652 -

zzripz said:
and also, do not underestimate beliefs actually manifesting physiological effects. There is evidence of people who are obsessed with their belief in the crucifixion of Jesus actually affecting physical scars in their hands known as stigmata. Whether this actually happens because of the subconscious we don't know, but we can get a hint if we look at what hypnosis can do. A famous case where a person had a very serious skin desiease--a crusty scale on his body, and hypnotic suggestion healed it.

ALSO placebo. This is when people assume they have pills etc that are really sugar pills but they are told they will cure --whatever--and this actually happens. Power of the mind

So think about it. IF you are part of an oppressive belief system all round your head telling you that the devil and his demons can possess you, then more than likely some people are going to feel this.

Same is so with the mental illness myth--though I am not claiming your making it up. But once a person is told by the dr priest that they have a disease--whatever label they get. Nore than not they are going to feel they do. So it can work both ways


I grew up atheist but one thing common to my whole life aside from very early childhood has been suffering. So even when I didnt believe in the devil or demons, I still suffered. THis indicates that my suffering is not due to paranoia about demons.

Now after I began to study ancient Christian texts like the Philokalia which explain how one can defend himself from demons, or even the Screwtape Letters by CS. Lewis which gives vivid descriptions of the thought processes demons use, I found that through recognition I was better equipped to defend myself from demons. This is not paranoia, its spiritual warfare.

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Re: Is Jesus God? [Re: FishOilTheKid]
    #20280685 -

FishOilTheKid said:
Quote:
his demons can possess you, then more than likely some people are going to feel this.


This is the reality/possibility of psychedelic usage even evidenced on these boards.

Quote:
The belief in wholly evil spirits begins with Zoroaster


Again I'm not believing in beliefs of the past to come up with this shit.  It is happening to me on a daily basis and I listen to them and hear them and talk to them.

And its not a 'worldview' it is my life that is happening here and I'm just sharing the actuality of extended contact with nonhuman intelligences that goes on in my particular case.

Its not history man.  Its my daily life.

Its funny that you call it paranoid because I'm really not just reporting on experience that was arrived at through psilocybin and amanita.


Yes, zzripz seems to think we can just believe our way out of demonic influences but it doesnt work that way. As I said, when I was atheist I was being influenced by demons, I just wasn't aware of it, which put me in an even worse situation. For example, one specific demon that has sought to destroy my life is a demon which I call the "dope demon" and this demon has caused me to suffer addictions to many drugs over the years. WHenever I would try to stop taking drugs, this demon would torment me day and night, constantly suggesting to me that I take some drugs. This demon convinced me that I could not be happy without ingesting massive amounts of drugs every day and it told me that drugs were more important than friends, family, career, other activities, etc. If you believe that it is truly your hearts desire to have your life revolve completely around abusing drugs, then it is much harder to stop using drugs than if you recognize that your thoughts are being manipulated by a demon and you don't actually need to take such vasts amounts of drugs.

I dont really see what this has to do with ZOoraster and MANY cultures have believed in evil spirits, not just European/middle eastern cultures.

Edited by Deviate (07/16/14 11:17 AM)

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Re: Is Jesus God? [Re: Deviate]
    #20280879 -

Because stories influence your worldview. This so known about I don't really see why your denying it. Take the scientific materialist myth---take Rene Descartes. You know of him right? He came up with this idea 'I think therefore I am' and from there came the myth that only thinking humans are connected with a 'rational God' and yet the physical body, and animals and nature are machines. BECAUSE of the myth he and his colleagues would torture live animals and BELIEVE their cries of pain were the noise of an automation. His worldview had destroyed his empathy with other species!

In Christian history there has been a belief that people can become possessed by demons, and they would persecute people, round them up and burn them alive and hang them! And this because of their BELIEF in STORIES or MYTHS

And here you are blaming your habits on demons instead of understanding that that need was a part of you, not some 'other'. Because like said, good and evil, or good and bad, or pain and pleasure are not separate but dynamic processes

Look at this text. it is black, right? And look at the ground I type words on, it is  white. In order to SEE the words you need this dynamic of light and dark. you cannot have one without the other

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Re: Is Jesus God? [Re: zzripz]
    #20281089 -

zzripz said:
Because stories influence your worldview. This so known about I don't really see why your denying it. Take the scientific materialist myth---take Rene Descartes. You know of him right? He came up with this idea 'I think therefore I am' and from there came the myth that only thinking humans are connected with a 'rational God' and yet the physical body, and animals and nature are machines. BECAUSE of the myth he and his colleagues would torture live animals and BELIEVE their cries of pain were the noise of an automation. His worldview had destroyed his empathy with other species!


There you go again, going off on random tangents about things I never said. I never said that stories did not influence my worldview. I said that the idea that whatever stories you may think I believe in now, are not the ultimate cause of my suffering, because I suffered long before I was ever introduced to such stories and ideas.

Quote:
And here you are blaming your habits on demons instead of understanding that that need was a part of you, not some 'other'. Because like said, good and evil, or good and bad, or pain and pleasure are not separate but dynamic processes


And here you are imposing your views upon me, trying to force me to conform to your cosmology. Why? You don't know what I have seen or experienced.

Quote:
Look at this text. it is black, right? And look at the ground I type words on, it is  white. In order to SEE the words you need this dynamic of light and dark. you cannot have one without the other


But this is NOT the relationship between good and evil. Are you saying that if we stopped killing each other and stealing from each other then we could no longer help each other or feed each other either? That is absolute nonsense. Evil is not necessary in order to have good. Evil is a corruption of the natural goodness of life.

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Re: Is Jesus God? [Re: zzripz]
    #20281413 -

You haven't really addressed the fact that they can be seen and heard so they are not stories or myths from the past!

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Re: Is Jesus God? [Re: zzripz]
    #20281429 -

with respect i got this many years ago after a long long search for answers, via books after very powerful LSD trips in my 15th year. I read loads of books but one by Alan Watts who introduced me to this--which I really knew and had been trying to find another words to integrate these insights But you choose to struggle with it and want to believe in a Devil and everlasting hell, and demons round every corner and on your shoulder. So that is your choice and your problem not mine. Nothing I will say will change that because you are so cock sure--at least consciously

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Re: Is Jesus God? [Re: FishOilTheKid]
    #20281481 -

FishOilTheKid said:
You haven't really addressed the fact that they can be seen and heard so they are not stories or myths from the past!


I have said in this thread and others that mythos is not to be really understood as historical. Mythos arises with psychedelic vegetation which allows access to eternal dimensions, It is also in Australian indigenous tradition known as the Dreamtime

What I am saying is that ALSO mythos can be influenced by worldview, and you may not even be aware of it. it has been unconscious.
The State is actually doing this to us. it uses mind control to influence our worldview, and is thus creating a myth. The oldest form of mind control is religion. IE there is a 'Devil' and there is 'everlasting hell' and IF you do not do we we SAY, and as 'God's Word' says, then you will go to hell for ever and ever

Some of these believers believe this is what happens to an unbaptized baby's soul if it dies, and I asked you if you believed that? Do you?

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