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OfflineBlastrid
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Psychological and metaphysical aspects of Music
    #1839564 - 08/22/03 04:29 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I've become increasingly interested in how music affects us.
It is a prime function of Humans, it is expression, it is direct reflection of culture and society.

But more specifically, it can change you.  Even deeper than how a Sepultura song can get you in an aggressive, pissed off mood and an Enya song can get you in a relaxed, calm mood... 

There are certain aspects of music theory that are, just the way they are.  Why is(was) the tritone so taboo? if it is exactly one half the octave, it has a huge place in chromatic tones.  Yet it sounds... wrong. Wavelengths and overtones don't blend, or something.  Because we feel it to be.
Why is Eb Major the most "Heroic" key? why did Beethoven choose that?  Why is Major -happy, and minor - sad? HOW do certain aural textures affect us?

Vibrations run thru our entire bodies, not just thru our eardrums.  Different combinations on the microscale can evoke different feelings inside. and on the macro scale, such an arrangement can bring one to tears, or drive one to punch a wall.

Do you think true music (I mean music that is created for the purpose of being art, not solely for profit) will ever evolve into an audible story starring the listener? I can also see, from the 'dark side' it evolving into a method of propaganda, a method to insert beliefs, thoughts, or feelings into the listener.

Very intriguing. What do you think?

thx for reading my rant  :smile: 


--------------------
Blas'?trid (bl?s tr?d)
    n.  3rd generation derivitave of a combination of 'bastard' and 'blasted'.  Used as both an insult or an expletive.
    ex.  Blastrid!

Stereopattern  <--My music.


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OfflinePhobos
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Re: Psychological and metaphysical aspects of Music [Re: Blastrid]
    #1839611 - 08/22/03 05:29 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I have no real research into music theory, or any complex musical knowledge.. but the study of music theory seems to be something that would only stunt the growth of music.  I think people experimenting with sounds and aural textures / noise / tones.. that sort of thing.. are headed more in the right direction to develop music further.

I do think it's possible for music to evolve to a higher form . . . to tell a story with sounds, without there being any actual visuals.

I'm not sure.. music is a wonderful thing that I'm horridly addicted to.  Difficult to live without it. :smile:


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InvisibleMystical_Craven
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Re: Psychological and metaphysical aspects of Music [Re: Blastrid]
    #1839716 - 08/22/03 08:05 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Listen to Pink Floyd's Atom Heart Mother some day...I think you'd like it  :grin: 


--------------------


"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go..." T.S. Eliot


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Psychological and metaphysical aspects of Music [Re: Blastrid] * 1
    #1840485 - 08/22/03 01:41 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Blastrid said:
I've become increasingly interested in how music affects us.
It is a prime function of Humans, it is expression, it is direct reflection of culture and society.




Music can be a direct reflection of a lot more than culture and society.. Music can directly reflect anything, everything, or nothing in this infinite universe.

Quote:


But more specifically, it can change you. Even deeper than how a Sepultura song can get you in an aggressive, pissed off mood and an Enya song can get you in a relaxed, calm mood...




Of course, this part depends entirely on the person who is listening and their tastes, as well. I know people who listen to metal that don't get all agressive and knock things over (me), and people who don't feel the need for dancing to a quarter note beat and a country twang, rather, they get all pissed off and want to break things (me).

Quote:


There are certain aspects of music theory that are, just the way they are. Why is(was) the tritone so taboo? if it is exactly one half the octave, it has a huge place in chromatic tones. Yet it sounds... wrong. Wavelengths and overtones don't blend, or something. Because we feel it to be.
Why is Eb Major the most "Heroic" key? why did Beethoven choose that? Why is Major -happy, and minor - sad? HOW do certain aural textures affect us?




The reason that I think this is true, is because music consists of different frequencies, and the universe is just energy and many different frequencies, etc. This could be why music has the possibility of carrying meaning and emotions. Just as energy is transmitted to deliver messages... Of course, this depends on the person listening, too, because they are the ones who are intercepting and deoding the message...

The tritone is used quite effectively in metal. Hell, I read in an interview with Al Di Meola that he uses the tritone when it is needed.. it is all about tension, I guess. Sometimes things are stressed and out of tune, and the tritone can reflect...

Quote:


Vibrations run thru our entire bodies, not just thru our eardrums. Different combinations on the microscale can evoke different feelings inside. and on the macro scale, such an arrangement can bring one to tears, or drive one to punch a wall.




This is related to the chants vocalized in meditation... it isn't the words themselves that "have the meaning", or whatever, but rather the vibrations that ring through your body when you vocalize them... This brings me to wonder about our thoughts themself. Our thoughts could be very well be different combinations of frequencies... Possibly why music is so effective in conveying feelings and messages...

Quote:


Do you think true music (I mean music that is created for the purpose of being art, not solely for profit) will ever evolve into an audible story starring the listener? I can also see, from the 'dark side' it evolving into a method of propaganda, a method to insert beliefs, thoughts, or feelings into the listener.




Music is at the will of us. We create it, and it fufills our wishes, carries whatever messages we want to carry. However, when music is created to make money, or as propaganda, that can shine through to people that are a little more open to Experience... Can you tell propaganda when you see it? Then you know what I mean...

I recommend checking out this website: Hollow Bone Music

This website talks a lot about all of this, and they have a cd that was recorded keeping all of this in mind (I can't wait until my music is written and recorded, as this will definitely be in my mind).

Also check out these articles written by Steve Vai.

Any musician on here, not just guitarists, shold definitely read this in their entirety. Good fucking shit.
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Psychological and metaphysical aspects of Music [Re: Blastrid]
    #1840665 - 08/22/03 02:37 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

you might enjoy reading some of von Helmholtz's work. He did a lot of scientific research in the physical properties of sound and music theory. Some of his work is a little too scientific, but it is still very interesting and sheds a lot of light on the questions you asked in your origional post.


just go to a good college library and search the psychology research database for "sound" and "von Helmholtz" (von Helmholtz was a psychologist who studied the physical properties of sound, the pysiological mechanisms of human audio perception, and how this ties in to music theory.

Also, you might enjoy "Music Cognition" by W. Jay Dowling. I took a course with Dr. Dowling and the text addressed a lot of these same issues.


--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


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OfflineBlastrid
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Re: Psychological and metaphysical aspects of Music [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1841050 - 08/22/03 04:29 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

sweet, thanks. I'm on it.

Fireworks, this is why the concept of Om intrigues me so. It is the spark of life within the self, sort of the sound of consciousness. It is the 'part of the divine imprisoned within the physical dimension.'

The tritone was used a lot in late romantic and contemporary music, because it is pure tension. You're right, it is all about tension and release, Tchaikovsky created tension by long diminished chords(contains tritone) and released with major chords, specifically a Neapolitan.

And you're right, reaction by the listener depends on the listener. But can't it evolve to a level where it affects you in your vibratory level, intentionally?
anyone else interested in this would love Boards of Canada, and www.bwgen.com


--------------------
Blas'?trid (bl?s tr?d)
    n.  3rd generation derivitave of a combination of 'bastard' and 'blasted'.  Used as both an insult or an expletive.
    ex.  Blastrid!

Stereopattern  <--My music.


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InvisibleJellric
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Re: Psychological and metaphysical aspects of Music [Re: Blastrid]
    #1841105 - 08/22/03 04:48 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Hazrat Inayat Khan, a sufi mystic, has also written on this topic.
He was a highly accomplished musician before he became fully involved in his life of spreading the message of sufism to the west.


--------------------
I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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OfflineDeiymiyan
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Re: Psychological and metaphysical aspects of Music [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1841397 - 08/22/03 06:35 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Steve Vai is AMAZING !!!

He rightfully deserves the label "Guitar god" as he has been referred to before !


I particularily enjoy his album: Passion and Warefare.

My two favorite songs on that album are:  The Audience is Listening and For The Love of God.

He speaks volumes with his creations !

:laugh:


   


--------------------


Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..



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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Psychological and metaphysical aspects of Music [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #1841480 - 08/22/03 07:00 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Steve Vai has mastered conveying messages and feeling with his guitar playing and songs... I heard about a recent project of his where he did a different song for each city he had visited that meant a lot to him; Paris, for example.

I'll get more into this subject later, when I have more time..
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineBlastrid
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Re: Psychological and metaphysical aspects of Music [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1841547 - 08/22/03 07:22 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

That album is called "Alive in an Ultraworld"
He composed pieces relating to different countries, then went there and performed and recorded them. All Music's review
Yeah, He is much more passion and emotion filled than his counterpart Joe Satriani. He is also the shit, but expresses in more of a flatout skill standpoint.

Anyone have any other reading material regarding this subject?


--------------------
Blas'?trid (bl?s tr?d)
    n.  3rd generation derivitave of a combination of 'bastard' and 'blasted'.  Used as both an insult or an expletive.
    ex.  Blastrid!

Stereopattern  <--My music.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Psychological and metaphysical aspects of Music [Re: Phobos]
    #1841590 - 08/22/03 07:43 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Phobos said:
I have no real research into music theory, or any complex musical knowledge.. but the study of music theory seems to be something that would only stunt the growth of music. I think people experimenting with sounds and aural textures / noise / tones.. that sort of thing.. are headed more in the right direction to develop music further.





This is the bullshit that punk and no talent guitar players want to be believed... "Ahh, man, I don't really want to learn how to play my insturment, because the music will not be filled with EMOTION then."

Music theory isn't suspossed to be regarded as exact rules. It is a useful tool to aid creative expression.. so that the musician doesn't have to reinvent the wheel everytime. Left on their own, a musician will have to painstakingly and slowly map out the relationship between notes on their own, which isn't necessarily bad, a lot of experience is gained from doing so (this is actually the way I am learning, I have a great deal of respect for music theory and have read some of it, but I myself have never applied it as such, I rather discover it all on my own.. I like to find this stuff out myself).

However, these musicians end up using the exact same scale patterns and such in the end. It is like an author writing books without ever reading any other books. It can be done sucessfully, but there is a lot of trial and error involved.

Music theory is said to kill creativity and the feeling in the music. Bullshit. It can be used to aid it. John Frucsiante, guitarist for the Red Hot Chili Peppers, said he uses music theory as a stepping stone to songwriting, that he has learned it and applied it that using it is intuitive to him, so that he doesn't have to think about the music theory at all, so he can just roll out the good music..

It's like learning the basics. One can't really write a story without first learning to effectively understand and use the language. The fundamentals need to be in place before one is free to express themselves in that medium..
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineBlastrid
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Re: Psychological and metaphysical aspects of Music [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1841847 - 08/22/03 09:17 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

well fuckin put.


--------------------
Blas'?trid (bl?s tr?d)
    n.  3rd generation derivitave of a combination of 'bastard' and 'blasted'.  Used as both an insult or an expletive.
    ex.  Blastrid!

Stereopattern  <--My music.


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OfflineGrav
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Re: Psychological and metaphysical aspects of Music [Re: Blastrid]
    #1842535 - 08/23/03 01:11 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

music puts a million stories and landscapes in my mind in just 3 or 4 minutes. it is a power I will never fathom, only be able to ride it's flowing current here and there.

just having some ambient thing running in the background brings this whole organic feel to my room. LIke the vibrations are just breathing life into the room.

keeps the wheels in my head turning, and thats what they're meant to do I guess.


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OfflinePhobos
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Re: Psychological and metaphysical aspects of Music [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1842750 - 08/23/03 03:48 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Nono, you misunderstand me!

I completely know where you're coming from - I'm just saying, like.. there is a lot of experimental music that is created by people who have INTENSE musical education behind them.. and some of that is so amazing.

I know you must understand the basics, I'm not saying "Oh hey, I'm just gonna fuck around with this keyboard and pretend its some hot shit"

Because I think that's crap!

I'm just saying, it's like the problem a lot of people have with other things.. like.. thinking for example. The more you know, the less intuitive you may become in some ways.. because you rely on what you've learned too much and have been caught in that way of doing things.. I'm sure you know what I mean.. I'm not dissing music theory or anything.

I sing, I play guitar, and by no means do I think just shitting around on the frets and not knowing music theory is going to make anything spectacular very easily - and that I couldn't really consider making musical poop and thinking it was worth anything without having some back ground.. I read into music theory, I practice a lot, I work on scales, patterns - fingering.. all that sort of thing. I was just offering an idea about that... do you get what I'm saying? It sounds like you're very angry at what I said, I meant no harm - I was just trying to bring that idea up.. that by reading into the rules too much, you may become enslaved by them.

:\


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Offlinenubious
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Re: Psychological and metaphysical aspects of Music [Re: Phobos]
    #1842756 - 08/23/03 03:55 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I read this thing where scientists have come up with a refridgerator that runs off of really either high or low tones.  It has this containment unit that houses these ceramic plates and this tone generator bounces the soundwaves off of them at such a high level it would blow our eardrums if the casing cracked.

Sounded pretty cool (no pun intended) :wink: !!

- nubbz


--------------------
No one knows the worth of innocence till he knows it is gone forever, and that money can't buy it back. Not the saint, but the sinner that repenteth, is he to whom the full length and breadth, and height and depth, of life's meaning is revealed. Good and evil loose all objective meaning and are seen as equally necessary and contrasting elements in the masterpiece that is the universe.


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OfflineBlastrid
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Re: Psychological and metaphysical aspects of Music [Re: nubious]
    #1842798 - 08/23/03 05:16 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Sounded pretty cool (no pun intended) !!




hahahahaha....

Yeah, I can understand the standpoint that if a musician viewed music theory as guidelines and rules and regulations, then it is a hinderance, but more on the musician's side.
But fortunately, history has shown that the best musicians break those guidelines and try something new. Who knew you could end the 4th movement of a symphony in a minor key? Everyone told Tchaikovsky he was crazy for that. Why in the world would you modulate to the tritone? oooh Beethoven you freak...
So I think those that know what they are studying realize-even without being directed or told so-that confinement doesn't exist for a musician, and theory doesn't intend to confine.


--------------------
Blas'?trid (bl?s tr?d)
    n.  3rd generation derivitave of a combination of 'bastard' and 'blasted'.  Used as both an insult or an expletive.
    ex.  Blastrid!

Stereopattern  <--My music.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Psychological and metaphysical aspects of Music [Re: Phobos]
    #1842818 - 08/23/03 06:41 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Phobos said:
I'm just saying, it's like the problem a lot of people have with other things.. like.. thinking for example. The more you know, the less intuitive you may become in some ways.. because you rely on what you've learned too much and have been caught in that way of doing things.. I'm sure you know what I mean.. I'm not dissing music theory or anything.





Naw, man, I wasn't angry with you at all. It just seemed like you were saying the "music theory prevents feel" sort of statement, and it was that that I was labelling bullshit.

I agree with you, a lot of people do get caught up in the rules and how things must be done, and they and their music are a slave to that. However, they don't realize that they aren't really creatively expressing themselves when they do that; it's like making a webpage from a template (only real analogy I could think of).

For those a little more aware, music theory can quite benefit the musician, as long as they learn to use the theory intuitively. This takes hard work and practice; it is one thing to be able to figure out the scales and where the notes are, it is another alltogether to be able to do that instantly. A good music analogy is this: It is a lot easier to play the guitar once you can automatically move your fingers to the different frets without looking or struggling. It is a lot easier to write good, emotional songs when you can automatically apply music theory without thinking about it. (By the way, I can't do this, I've headed out on my own to find the note relationships and so forth, but I know I will eventually be practicing music theory openly)

I agree with what you were just saying, too.
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflinePhobos
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Re: Psychological and metaphysical aspects of Music [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1842820 - 08/23/03 06:51 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Music is such a wonderful thing.. Something I just can't get over.

:]


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Psychological and metaphysical aspects of Music [Re: Phobos]
    #1842848 - 08/23/03 07:46 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Phobos said:
Music is such a wonderful thing.. Something I just can't get over.

:]




So very true.. I've decided to go head start, full focus into a life in music, and there is no holding back or "something to fall back on". I have this unquenchable thirst for music in general, making it in specific. I mean, I download all sorts of metal and trance, and I don't just listen to it a lot of the time (although I still just let it carry me without thought), I actively listen, figuring out what is going on, expanding my knowledge of the music I will soon be creating..

There is a lot of things in music that most people never even hear. People will listen to some death metal, and they just hear the screaming. "I can't even understand what he is saying. what's the point? I'm like, "I can understand what he is saying. The point is that someone doesn't just 'get it' the first or second listen, what is really going on is buried down within, to be discovered, and when you discover it, a whole world withing music opens up...". Bands like IN FLAMES, Opeth, Dark Tranquillity, Cradle of Filth, Children of Bodom.. the music is just go great once you get used to what is going on.

RIght now I am cut off from playing bass, as mine is in the U.S. and I haven't ordered my new one yet. I am suffering from withdrawls, but Guitar Pro for metal songs and Fruity Loops for trance are keeping me from total creative shutoff... it sucks not having your pride and joy.

Anyways, this is a great thread. Shall we keep it going?
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflinePhobos
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Re: Psychological and metaphysical aspects of Music [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1842854 - 08/23/03 07:58 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

You should expand your electronic music interests into the categories of IDM / experimental / noise.

To say the most common -

Aphex Twin, Squarepusher, Autechre, Coil

and to expand to artists electronic, and not -

Boards of Canada (a favorite),
Telefon Tel Aviv (a huge favorite I just discovered),

air, gas, ?-Ziq (pronounced mu-zeek/music), ISDS, Plaid, Philip Glass, Sigur Ros, Steve Reich.


you want to check out some amazing fucking underground music from the hardcore scene - check out

botch (holy jesus- new album blows my fucking mind)

ISIS (holy shit everything they've done, especially their latest album - Oceanic .......is so ridiculous)

dillinger escape plan (im sure youve heard of them, they got quite big), as i lay dying, agoraphobic nosebleed, Codeseven (old stuff very weird, new stuff very airy and calm.. beautiful)


okay, the list got damn long, i'll leave it at that.. i could go on for awhile.

i highly suggest you check out all of those, especially the ones i ranted about at minimum - you will NOT be fucking disappointed!


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Avalon Magic Plants
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