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Re: If Jesus was really God [Re: Cactilove]
    #17181462 -

you should brush up on john and the psalms then.:wink:


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Orgone Conclusion...Bringing OTD to PS&P since 2007.

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Re: If Jesus was really God [Re: Cactilove]
    #17181584 -

Cactilove said:
Quote:
No, I made my argument quite clearly, that I know of no way to read the bible for moral instruction that is coherent and not incompatible with the christian faith of god inspiring/writing the cannon for human edification.



Rephrase that please.



That was a rephrasing- read the thread.  I'm not going to say this again for at least the third time without some demonstration that my words aren't meaningful.


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You can pick and choose, but to make that call you have to have a moral source to determine what to pick and choose, and thus that fails.


Why?


Because you would have no way to determine the moral from the immoral without a preexisting moral calculus. If that is being applied to the bible, it does not derive from the bible, and hence the bible is not the source of moral instruction and we can figure that out without it.  This then opens up more severe problems for christianity by revealing the bible is actually immoral in many respects for its teachings.



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You can treat it like any other book but that's inconsistant with the christian faith or the belief god provided the books by his good will.


So?


So then the premise is falsified and the argument isn't sound.


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There's only one source for any nontrivial report of Jesus and that's the books of the bible


Again so?



So the source of my information on the charecter of Jesus is obviously derived from these books and the poster challenging such was arguing dishonestly or equivocating between the historical Jesus and the charecter in the books.  He clearly discussed the former in his post, but then suddenly had a malfunction when I did the same.  Its sophmoric semantic bullshit- which is about what I'd expect given he started off with the arrogant assumption that those who disagreed with him were more ignorant than him.

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Re: If Jesus was really God [Re: johnm214]
    #17181637 -

Quote:
Because you would have no way to determine the moral from the immoral without a preexisting moral calculus. If that is being applied to the bible, it does not derive from the bible, and hence the bible is not the source of moral instruction and we can figure that out without it.


Well that goes without saying.:grin:
Quote:
So then the premise is falsified and the argument isn't sound.


I'm sorry but your argument is not clear to me, nor is the premise.
Quote:
So the source of my information on the charecter of Jesus is obviously derived from these books and the poster challenging such was arguing dishonestly or equivocating between the historical Jesus and the charecter in the books.


I'm not defending his position, nor yours, I'm just making some comment here and there,
It matters not if there was a historical jesus.
Quote:
This then opens up more severe problems for christianity by revealing the bible is actually immoral in many respects for its teachings.


As is life.


--------------------
Orgone Conclusion...Bringing OTD to PS&P since 2007.

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Re: If Jesus was really God [Re: Cactilove]
    #17181763 -

Quote:
It matters not if there was a historical jesus.


I'd hope he wasn't historical and that he was rather a symbol. And someone with a better story plot and message than the one in the bible. I give it a 3/10. I didn't read the whole thing, but I have read enough to know I'm not missing anything really. If I ever read it, it will be fore the sake of reading THE BIBLE! I'd actually give a few esoteric religious texts a 8-9 score on entertaining, but this is in the top 1% of religion.


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"It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and forget his own." - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"A room without books is like a body without a soul."  - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"Do not bite at the bait of pleasure, till you know there is no hook beneath it." -Thomas Jefferson

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Re: If Jesus was really God [Re: johnm214]
    #17181967 -

johnm214 said:
You can also do what confettihead does, and make arrogant posts about Jesus's teachings and then when he is challenged equivocate immediately to the position that there is no Jesus.  I guess that's one way to get out of backing up your claims, just change the definition of words constantly on the fly.

Dumb.



When did I ever make an arrogant post claiming that Jesus is real? If you're referring to my first post then you have misinterpreted it, just like you misinterpret the words of the bible. Jesus's teachings are very real, but I have no idea if he actually existed or not because I wasn't there to witness it. What is up your ass? You've done nothing but throw fits at people here on this thread. Maybe you need to review some of Jesus's teachings again and grow a moral backbone. I'll admit, some of your arguments are valid, but you have zero respect for other posters. Therefore, I can only take your words with a grain of salt. I don't know if the church burned you or what, but you seem to have a lot of built up resentment against it. Just let go man, you're only digging yourself a deeper hole.

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According to John and the psalms, are we not gods too?



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Not to my knowledge.  I've never heard/read that that I can recall.


Yeah, it's in the bible. But, obviously you haven't read it enough to know, thus making all your claims about the bible irrelevant. Go do some homework and then come back and share your viewpoint.


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Re: If Jesus was really God [Re: ConfettiHead]
    #17182085 -

ConfettiHead said:
johnm214 said:
You can also do what confettihead does, and make arrogant posts about Jesus's teachings and then when he is challenged equivocate immediately to the position that there is no Jesus.  I guess that's one way to get out of backing up your claims, just change the definition of words constantly on the fly.

Dumb.



When did I ever make an arrogant post claiming that Jesus is real?


I didn't say you did, I said you dishonestly equivocated between discussing Jesus the historical person and Jesus the charecter.  You mentioned Jesus:  "It's not that Jesus was God. He just embodied god-like characteristics such as love for all, self-sacrifice, forgiveness, etc. Remember he was a son of God, just like the rest of us"

yet when i did you respond with a self-serving post laughing off the refrences as impossible due to describing a fictional man.  Clearly you equivocate at your convieniance as to what concept jesus describes.


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If you're referring to my first post then you have misinterpreted it, just like you misinterpret the words of the bible.


More bare claims.  I'm still waiting for your method of interpretation that produces something coherent and consistant with the bible being god's instructions.  If you can't do that, it seems your just bitching about taste and personal preference in the guise of a "correct interpretation".

Quote:
J I'll admit, some of your arguments are valid, but you have zero respect for other posters. Therefore, I can only take your words with a grain of salt.


When someone comes into a thread and makes arrogant pronouncements that reveal he thinks those who disagree with him must be ignorant rather than having a principled objection, I do often loose respect for them. 


Quote:
Quote:
According to John and the psalms, are we not gods too?



Quote:
Not to my knowledge.  I've never heard/read that that I can recall.


Yeah, it's in the bible. But, obviously you haven't read it enough to know, thus making all your claims about the bible irrelevant. Go do some homework and then come back and share your viewpoint.



I see we've jumped straight to the ad hominem.  My knowledge is irrelevant.

I've also read the bible as well as your posts, and nowhere do you present a contrary argument beyond bleating about "true meanings" and other trash.

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Re: If Jesus was really God [Re: johnm214]
    #17182208 -

You've done nothing but throw another fit. Congratulations, you've made no progress in presenting a valid argument either to me or to any of the other posters that have challenged you. You continuously play ring around the rosy expecting to get somewhere and yet you never realize that you're going nowhere fast. The funny thing is I wasn't even trying to debate with you or anyone else here. I simply presented my viewpoint and you took things personally (as most selfish, rebellious children do).


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Re: If Jesus was really God [Re: ConfettiHead]
    #17182232 -

Jesus isn't God. Jesus is the Son of God.

God, Jesus, and The Holy Spirit is The Trinity Thang.


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Re: If Jesus was really God [Re: ConfettiHead]
    #17182248 -

:flame:

:popcorn:


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★★★ ★

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Re: If Jesus was really God [Re: EYE AM SWIM]
    #17182281 -

That's not what I heard.


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Orgone Conclusion...Bringing OTD to PS&P since 2007.

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Re: If Jesus was really God [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #17182353 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
wouldn't he have seen how his teachings would be misused and cause untold suffering?



examples?


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Re: If Jesus was really God [Re: johnm214] * 1
    #17182409 -

johnm214 said:
ConfettiHead said:
You can't skim over Jesus's teachings (or any spiritual master's teachings) one time, very quickly and expect to understand it..



Great.  Another self important proclamation that anybody who doesn't agree with the poster's philosophy must be an ignorant fool.

Usually conversations with these people reveal they know jack shit- kinda funny how that works out.

In any case, Jesus said many times that he had god like powers, and your summary of his teachings is baseless. 

Quote:
Don't blame Jesus, blame those individuals or are using good teachings for some petty, worthless material gain.



Good teachings?

Good like eternal torture for finite crimes (and noncrimes)? 

Good like abandoning your family?


Good like giving away everything you own?

Good like not planning for the future at all?



What a disgusting comment you've made.  I'd hate to see what "bad" is in your eyes.  These teachings are the raving of a mad man that would cause, and have caused, untold misseries in families around the world.


:werd:

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Re: If Jesus was really God [Re: Wise Toad]
    #17182568 -

Good and bad, good and evil, dark and light.
They come in a package, the world does not work in one or the other extremes.
everything is fundamentally ying and yang, if you realize this, you have seen a archetypal truth.


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Orgone Conclusion...Bringing OTD to PS&P since 2007.

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Re: If Jesus was really God [Re: ConfettiHead] * 1
    #17183841 -

you've made no progress in presenting a valid argument either to me or to any of the other posters

I see the opposite. He's neatly torn your position to shreds. And you don't defend your position, you just whine without addressing any of the problems with your argument he highlighted.

Then you tell him he is "misinterpreting" the bible. When he asks you to provide a method to coherently interpret the bible, you don't give him one and again tell him he's "misinterpreting" the bible.

You're the one going in circles.

The funny thing is I wasn't even trying to debate with you or anyone else here.

The funny thing is that you haven't read the forum rules and strut in here like you own the place and everyone should play by your rules.

This is a debate-oriented forum. You can expect everything you post here to be debated. Even people who agree with you in principle will debate everything you post here because, again since you've neglected to read the rules, this is a debate-oriented forum.

I simply presented my viewpoint

And john214 pointed out contradictions and inconsistencies (plus more than a little intellectual dishonesty) in your presentment. None of which you've addressed.

My guess is because your contradictions and inconsistencies are indefensible and you're starting to see that from the debate. The intellectual dishonesty comes from neither defending your position nor accepting that it's flawed.

Meanwhile, read the rules like a polite visitor should before posting and bitching that the rules are being followed by everyone but himself.


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Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: If Jesus was really God [Re: Diploid]
    #17184238 -

Way to back up your buddy Diploid. I presented my interpretation clearly and coherently, however it continues to be ignored by those who oppose my viewpoint. Apparently Shamanick was able to understand it with ease, but johnm can't grasp the idea of metaphorical teachings. He must think there was a real Jesus made out of bread (see John 6:35)! I presented my case politely and soundly, only when I was disrespected did I become unpolite. My apologies for that. Anyway, I never expected to win the debate, considering this forum is controlled by atheists and materialists.


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Re: If Jesus was really God [Re: ConfettiHead] * 1
    #17184239 -

Quote:
Anyway, I never expected to win the debate, considering this forum is controlled by atheists and materialists.


What a lame cop-out.  :thumbdown:

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Re: If Jesus was really God [Re: johnm214]
    #17184301 -

johnm214 said:
What a disgusting comment you've made.  I'd hate to see what "bad" is in your eyes.  These teachings are the raving of a mad man that would cause, and have caused, untold misseries in families around the world.


According to professor Andrew Newberg ( http://www.thegreatcourses.com/tgc/professors/professor_detail.aspx?pid=443 ) being more spiritual and going more to church is correlated with less depression and better physical health ( probably because of a lower release of the stress hormone cortisol ). Of course, I am not saying people should be more religious just because it makes them less depressed and gives them better physical health. Personally I think better health and less depression can be achieved in numerous of other ways. Anyhow. Saying that religion is the root cause of social harm is probably nonsense. I think social harmony is much higher in the US and in Brazil, than in atheistic ex-communist countries like Russia or east Europe. There is also a difference between religions. Christian and Buddistic teachings are much more benevolent than the Islamic and Jewish teachings.

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Re: If Jesus was really God [Re: Zanthius] * 1
    #17184307 -

Quote:
According to professor Andrew Newberg ( http://www.thegreatcourses.com/tgc/professors/professor_detail.aspx?pid=443 ) being more spiritual and going more to church is correlated with less depression and better physical health ( probably because of a lower release of the stress hormone cortisol ).


Due to the stress that believers put atheists and secular people through right?  Fitting in is less stressful than standing up for an unpopular minority position.

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Re: If Jesus was really God [Re: DieCommie]
    #17184313 -

:lol::thumbup:


--------------------
"It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and forget his own." - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"A room without books is like a body without a soul."  - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"Do not bite at the bait of pleasure, till you know there is no hook beneath it." -Thomas Jefferson

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Re: If Jesus was really God [Re: DieCommie]
    #17184328 -

DieCommie said:
Due to the stress that believers put atheists and secular people through right?  Fitting in is less stressful than standing up for an unpopular minority position.


Yeah, but if religion is so bad, then there should be much more social harmony in atheistic countries like Russia and east Europe than in religious countries like the US and Brazil. Do you really think things are better in Russia than in the US?

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