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Offlineplague member
member
Registered: 01/10/01
Posts: 59
Loc: The Great white north
Last seen: 15 years, 2 months
Why God MUST be real
    #384677 - 09/03/01 04:19 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Now this might be hard to catch because I realized it a mushrooms but
bear with me.

If God is infact not real and evelution is why we are here then why where there
apes before us? Whats the point of?

Okay let me try a different approach. It must have been conceived that
people(that is selfconsous organisims) where to come into existance other
wise what is it all for? By that I mean whats the point of there being a
universe or single cell organisims or grass or trees? If there was never
gonna be a creature that would appriciate it all?

I hope this is clear. Any opinions, insights are welcome.

Thanks,
Ryan
-----------------------

"As you cross the six, seven gram barrier with mushrooms, it becomes less like a drug in the ordinary sense and more like a hapening ,an experience that is unique."


--------------------
"As you cross the six, seven gram barrier with mushrooms, it becomes less like a drug in the ordinary sense and more like a hapening ,an experience that is unique."


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OfflineSQUINTS
Stranger

Registered: 09/02/01
Posts: 8
Last seen: 15 years, 5 months
Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: plague member]
    #384682 - 09/03/01 04:29 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

I do not believe in a god as a person. God is , to me all around us. It is the trees, the grass, animals, and the universe. maybe it was just luck that the earth was perfectly centered around the sun and created a perfect breeding ground for organisms.



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OfflineTengu
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Registered: 06/07/01
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Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: plague member]
    #384728 - 09/03/01 05:28 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

for me, existence is the reason for itself. why do you need any reason? reasons are human inventions.


but teach me that i am wrong and i will apreciate your ideas.




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OfflineDead Shaman
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Registered: 03/01/01
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Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: plague member]
    #384774 - 09/03/01 06:40 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Maybe it's just me but I don't think your post actually described how or WHY God must be real, but I do agree with you in the respect there there seems to be a grander design. Although I don't think anyone can really answer that one. For all we know life is a fluke, a side effect of existence. In my opinion we are what we make ourselves.

"And then you will realize the truth; there is no spoom."

Edited by Dead Shaman on 09/04/01 02:15 PM.



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InvisibleNDK
member
Registered: 07/13/01
Posts: 186
Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: Dead Shaman]
    #385225 - 09/04/01 04:24 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

"If God is infact not real and evelution is why we are here then why where there apes before us? Whats the point of?"

Sure the ancient apes and the other archeological evidence of beings that are on their way to being modern humans is evidence FOR evolution. One major tenet in evolution is that there is no point. All it suggest is what works, works. What doesn't dies out. You, and every other organism on the planet are, be definition, the most successful "design" to date. Genes in your body have made it through millions of years of hardship.

"Okay let me try a different approach. It must have been conceived that people(that is selfconsous organisims) were to come into existance other wise what is it all for?"

I don't really see why it must have been conceived. None of us remotely understands the concept of consciousness so i can't see that we can draw any concrete conclusions from it's existance.

"By that I mean whats the point of there being a universe or single cell organisims or grass or trees? If there was never
gonna be a creature that would appriciate it all?"

But if there is no point, which is the other possibility, then that argument ceases to be important.

I find hard-core evolution just as amazing - i.e. that the same physical/chemical laws that put the universe into existance and keep it running naturally culminate in the creation of a sentient being. It is as if the universe has developed to a point where it can look at itself.



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Invisibletox
'head

Registered: 08/25/01
Posts: 40
Loc: NE PA
Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: NDK]
    #385364 - 09/04/01 11:12 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

I, more or less, have a belief in probability. Every single event in your life, from birth to hitting a green traffic light to death, is dictated by odds.

Even our existance on this planet is subject to these odds. If water was slightly denser, ice would sink, kill fish, and never thaw. (I just pulled that right out of nowhere, but there's countless other factors that had to be perfect for earth to sustain us with life. If someone believes that these forces were altered to the correct state by some divine force, I suppose he's entitled to that. I myself just believe in probability, and nothing else.

I sure as hell dont believe that worshipping dead guy nailed to a stick is going to solve the worlds problems.

---------------------------------
Feed Your Head.


--------------------
------
In your face, Space Coyote!


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InvisibleKid
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Registered: 07/22/00
Posts: 2,365
Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: plague member]
    #385426 - 09/04/01 12:24 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

> If God is infact not real and evelution is why we are here then why where there
apes before us?

Maybe there is no reason why. There might be an answer to "how" did we come about, but not necessarily why (other that "just because").

> Whats the point of?

Does there have to be a point?

> It must have been conceived that
people(that is selfconsous organisims) where to come into existance other
wise what is it all for?

A human's just a biological organism. Just as a chemical reaction can occur without it having been conceived, a series of biological reactions can occur without it having been conceived.

> By that I mean whats the point of there being a
universe or single cell organisims or grass or trees? ]

That might be something we'll never know.

> If there was never
gonna be a creature that would appriciate it all?

The problem I have with this kind of reasoning is that you're invoking the idea that the universe was created by some entity, and in your human-centered point of view you obviously invoke the idea that this entity for some reason prefers biological organism, especially homo sapiens sapiens.

If there were a creator entity why wouldn't it prefer chemical reactions? There are far more chemical reactions going on that human actions? Why wouldn't it prefer mathematics? Why should it choose anything? Why do you perceive that there's something out there that has made a choice at all?



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InvisibleKid
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Registered: 07/22/00
Posts: 2,365
Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: tox]
    #385428 - 09/04/01 12:26 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

If we didn't have hydrogen bonding water would evaporate far below zero celcius and life as we know it would not be possible.



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Anonymous

Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: plague member]
    #385615 - 09/04/01 06:04 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

but where did god come from? does god have a god? I personally feel, well it's true that, everything is energy. This energy flows in and out of everything and everyone. Our minds decide that we are unique, and we are because we all think independently and in a unique way. But the energy that gives our minds the power to think is the same. I'm sure a lot of you have felt this energy in it's purist form at one point or another. It is the essence of everything . . .
Let's say then that this energy is God, or if not, it is God's energy. Then we are left with the idea that we are all essentually this energy. So then, we are all god. We are not seperate... this energy that is god doesn't die, it has no boundry, it connects everything.
And since I've basically started rambling like a mad man...
maybe we aren't even us. Maybe we are all in the imagination of one individual...

okay, I'll stop now... thank you for your time =)

Deep in the vortex I rest... clueless to time, for madness has its own circle.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 19,729
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: plague member]
    #385638 - 09/04/01 06:41 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

I once read a mathematical proof that God exists. It had to do with causality and the theory that the universe began as an uncausable event (something that defies causality). It was quite interesting.

On the other hand, I have read some theories that make the idea of God irrellivant. There's a theory called the "mltiverse theory" which states that there are an infinite number of universes and that each universe is a subtle variation of the other universes. In this theory EVERYTHING that could happen in a universe, has happened in some universe. So the formation of life was just a random event that happened to occur in X number of universes.

Just a couple sides of the argument to think about.

-----------------------
"Our culture's defined by the ones least defined..." -- The Offspring


--------------------
BTC - 1KqrSHZ1C3NsQP4g3PkHhppBnhdgyXr6sB


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Offlinefiddler4u
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Registered: 08/20/01
Posts: 282
Loc: Where the shrooms are gre...
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: plague member]
    #385803 - 09/04/01 10:02 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Do you want to belive?....try this:
There is so much proof that everything that the bible speaks of is true, that it really isn't funny!
There also proof of a man being here that was named jesus, who was called the son of man.
Look around you....we keep track of time by his death.
I could go into sooooo much, but i will not.
I will tell you that i personal belive that shrooms were used.
Called manna. check it out.
GOD bless

I am the vine, you are the branches. If a man remains in me, and I in him, he will bare much fruit.
Apart from me you can do nothing. john 15:5


--------------------
I am the vine, you are the branches. If a man remains in me, and I in him, he will bare much fruit.
Apart from me you can do nothing. john 15:5


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Offlinefiddler4u
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Registered: 08/20/01
Posts: 282
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Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: plague member]
    #385812 - 09/04/01 10:09 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

One more thing about the ape theory:
There have been over 54 cases/studies done where children grow up with human contact. None of them had any type of communication with anything. Animals are always being studied for this. They and us have to be taught no matter how you look at it.
Another pointer....pretty simple but if the world were to change axis by 1 degree either way, we wouldn't be talking right now.
I now some of this stuff is simple but thats all i really want to write right now....heh.
c ya


I am the vine, you are the branches. If a man remains in me, and I in him, he will bare much fruit.
Apart from me you can do nothing. john 15:5


--------------------
I am the vine, you are the branches. If a man remains in me, and I in him, he will bare much fruit.
Apart from me you can do nothing. john 15:5


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Offlinefiddler4u
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Registered: 08/20/01
Posts: 282
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Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: plague member]
    #385818 - 09/04/01 10:12 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Me again...sorry about this.
about MANNA. in the bible GOD says he uses this as a tool to see if were going to follow his law. So in a sence it's not a tool for us, but for him.

I am the vine, you are the branches. If a man remains in me, and I in him, he will bare much fruit.
Apart from me you can do nothing. john 15:5


--------------------
I am the vine, you are the branches. If a man remains in me, and I in him, he will bare much fruit.
Apart from me you can do nothing. john 15:5


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Offlinemountainbiker
Stranger
Registered: 09/02/01
Posts: 11
Last seen: 15 years, 5 months
Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: fiddler4u]
    #386169 - 09/05/01 10:20 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

hi all. i'm new here and have ideas on the below, and how it relates to the idea that God must exist.

>There's a theory called the "mltiverse theory" which states that there are an infinite number of universes and that each universe is a subtle variation of the other universes. In this theory EVERYTHING that could happen in a universe, has happened in some universe.

i agree with this, and would like to expand on it. Infinity is something that humans can't fully grasp, by it's very nature, of course. We can only realise part of infinity. If we were to somehow see more of infinity than is humanly possible, we would go mad or die of shock. But the nature of infinity implies that nothing is impossible, that infact EVERYTHING IS. And not just physical universes. Any idea or crazy universe or reality you can imagine is manifest in the infinite fractal matrix of all.

Edited by mountainbiker on 09/05/01 10:37 AM.



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InvisiblePynchon
Slow Learner

Registered: 04/28/01
Posts: 578
Loc: New Zealand
Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: mountainbiker]
    #386201 - 09/05/01 11:38 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Maybe some definitions are in order...

"universe" = all that can be known -- so perhaps to speculate on "other universes" is a contradiction in terms? This is the problem I have with the so-called multi-verse theory -- it's not a scientific theory at all, given that it can't be used to make any predictions, nor can it say much about the early history of our universe -- it attempts to define the logical difficulty of creation away -- and a definition is a million miles south of an explanation...

Paul Davies has made valiant attempts to explain the origin of life and conciousness by suggesting that, in addition to the underlying laws of physics, there are "complementary" laws that come into play at a certain levels of complexity -- ie, as far as Darwin was concerned, the mechanism of evolution was entirely predicated upon reproduction -- organisms which reproduced the "best" survived...so why isn't the world filled with furiously replicating ameoba's? All a single-celled organism need do to replicate is split itself in two -- no slipping cheerleaders rohypnol required! -- but here we are...why? Davies suggests that the laws of biology(and by extension, those of physics) are not on their own enough to answer these questions...he uses automata theory and the famed Belousov-Zhabatinski reaction to conjecture that, given certain boundary conditions, order and complexity must -- or at least, should -- arise from apparent quantum chaos...

Also, he takes drugs.



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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: Pynchon]
    #386211 - 09/05/01 11:49 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

In the book The Lost World (the sequal to Jurassic Park) there is a nice explanation for evolution and the existance of life given by Ian Malcom. I don't have the book in front of me but it goes something along the lines that chaos theory shows that life and DNA and evolution are the only possible outcomes of a chaotic system.

I know it's just a fictional book, but Chriton uses real science when writing so I wouldn't be surprised if this was an actual theory.

-----------------------
"Our culture's defined by the ones least defined..." -- The Offspring


--------------------
BTC - 1KqrSHZ1C3NsQP4g3PkHhppBnhdgyXr6sB


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InvisiblePynchon
Slow Learner

Registered: 04/28/01
Posts: 578
Loc: New Zealand
Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: trendal]
    #386233 - 09/05/01 12:35 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Crichton uses psuedo-science to make money...maybe I should have said that when a system is pushed into non-equilibrium -- chaos -- creativity can spontaneously appear...without necessarily requiring any screwy god-stuff to guest-star...stuff that is by definition impossible to predict according to the "lower" laws. It's important to remember tho, that these new laws can't be in contradiction to the basic laws of physics, they can only be...supplementary?

There is some evidence to suggest that evolution actually did occur this way -- I mean spontaneously, in steps, not as a long, drawn-out process...particularly in regards to complex organs...after all, of what concievable evolutionary value is half an eye? Half an ear? Random gen. mutations can't be responsible for these...not to say that there is some "end-product" the universe has in mind(teleology), rather that the universe is as scoobied as the rest of us, and she's trying out any and all designs that might work...she just has an awful lot of material to work with...

Does zetek read this forum? He/she could put this much better than I can...

Edited by Pynchon on 09/05/01 11:37 AM.



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Offlineplague member
member
Registered: 01/10/01
Posts: 59
Loc: The Great white north
Last seen: 15 years, 2 months
Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: NDK]
    #386427 - 09/05/01 06:58 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

I tried to be as clear as I cloud but I guess its like that
part of the mushroom trip that you cant ever explain in
words but somehow still understand it.

I wish I could help you guys understand what im trying to
say, Ohwell....

Thanks for listening,

Ryan

--------------------------

"As you cross the six, seven gram barrier with mushrooms, it becomes less like a drug in the ordinary sense and more like a hapening ,an experience that is unique."


--------------------
"As you cross the six, seven gram barrier with mushrooms, it becomes less like a drug in the ordinary sense and more like a hapening ,an experience that is unique."


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Offlinegnrm23
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Registered: 08/30/99
Posts: 6,481
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Last seen: 5 days, 10 hours
Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: plague member]
    #386457 - 09/05/01 08:09 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

it's the short words that are slippery...
(attributed to michael valentine smith, THE MAN FROM MARS!!!)

old enough to know better
not old enough to care


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care


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InvisibleNDK
member
Registered: 07/13/01
Posts: 186
Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: gnrm23]
    #386808 - 09/06/01 05:32 AM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Half an eye wouldn't happen nor need to. Eyes have been developing for millions of years, probably from vaguely photosensitive cells. There is evidence for environmental events that "sped up" evolution if that is a useful way of looking at it. But steps like no eye to eye could not have happened.



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