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Offlineplague member
member
Registered: 01/09/01
Posts: 59
Loc: The Great white north
Last seen: 22 years, 7 days
Why God MUST be real
    #384677 - 09/03/01 02:19 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

Now this might be hard to catch because I realized it a mushrooms but
bear with me.

If God is infact not real and evelution is why we are here then why where there
apes before us? Whats the point of?

Okay let me try a different approach. It must have been conceived that
people(that is selfconsous organisims) where to come into existance other
wise what is it all for? By that I mean whats the point of there being a
universe or single cell organisims or grass or trees? If there was never
gonna be a creature that would appriciate it all?

I hope this is clear. Any opinions, insights are welcome.

Thanks,
Ryan
-----------------------

"As you cross the six, seven gram barrier with mushrooms, it becomes less like a drug in the ordinary sense and more like a hapening ,an experience that is unique."


--------------------
"As you cross the six, seven gram barrier with mushrooms, it becomes less like a drug in the ordinary sense and more like a hapening ,an experience that is unique."

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OfflineSQUINTS
Stranger

Registered: 09/02/01
Posts: 5
Last seen: 22 years, 3 months
Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: plague member]
    #384682 - 09/03/01 02:29 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

I do not believe in a god as a person. God is , to me all around us. It is the trees, the grass, animals, and the universe. maybe it was just luck that the earth was perfectly centered around the sun and created a perfect breeding ground for organisms.


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OfflineTengu
journeyman
Registered: 06/07/01
Posts: 77
Last seen: 20 years, 5 months
Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: plague member]
    #384728 - 09/03/01 03:28 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

for me, existence is the reason for itself. why do you need any reason? reasons are human inventions.


but teach me that i am wrong and i will apreciate your ideas.



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OfflineDead Shaman
enthusiast

Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 172
Loc: Unknown
Last seen: 21 years, 10 months
Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: plague member]
    #384774 - 09/03/01 04:40 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

Maybe it's just me but I don't think your post actually described how or WHY God must be real, but I do agree with you in the respect there there seems to be a grander design. Although I don't think anyone can really answer that one. For all we know life is a fluke, a side effect of existence. In my opinion we are what we make ourselves.

"And then you will realize the truth; there is no spoom."

Edited by Dead Shaman on 09/04/01 02:15 PM.


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InvisibleNDK
member
Registered: 07/13/01
Posts: 186
Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: Dead Shaman]
    #385225 - 09/04/01 02:24 AM (22 years, 5 months ago)

"If God is infact not real and evelution is why we are here then why where there apes before us? Whats the point of?"

Sure the ancient apes and the other archeological evidence of beings that are on their way to being modern humans is evidence FOR evolution. One major tenet in evolution is that there is no point. All it suggest is what works, works. What doesn't dies out. You, and every other organism on the planet are, be definition, the most successful "design" to date. Genes in your body have made it through millions of years of hardship.

"Okay let me try a different approach. It must have been conceived that people(that is selfconsous organisims) were to come into existance other wise what is it all for?"

I don't really see why it must have been conceived. None of us remotely understands the concept of consciousness so i can't see that we can draw any concrete conclusions from it's existance.

"By that I mean whats the point of there being a universe or single cell organisims or grass or trees? If there was never
gonna be a creature that would appriciate it all?"

But if there is no point, which is the other possibility, then that argument ceases to be important.

I find hard-core evolution just as amazing - i.e. that the same physical/chemical laws that put the universe into existance and keep it running naturally culminate in the creation of a sentient being. It is as if the universe has developed to a point where it can look at itself.


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Invisibletox
'head

Registered: 08/25/01
Posts: 40
Loc: NE PA
Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: NDK]
    #385364 - 09/04/01 09:12 AM (22 years, 5 months ago)

I, more or less, have a belief in probability. Every single event in your life, from birth to hitting a green traffic light to death, is dictated by odds.

Even our existance on this planet is subject to these odds. If water was slightly denser, ice would sink, kill fish, and never thaw. (I just pulled that right out of nowhere, but there's countless other factors that had to be perfect for earth to sustain us with life. If someone believes that these forces were altered to the correct state by some divine force, I suppose he's entitled to that. I myself just believe in probability, and nothing else.

I sure as hell dont believe that worshipping dead guy nailed to a stick is going to solve the worlds problems.

---------------------------------
Feed Your Head.


--------------------
------
In your face, Space Coyote!

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InvisibleKid
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 07/21/00
Posts: 2,365
Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: plague member]
    #385426 - 09/04/01 10:24 AM (22 years, 5 months ago)

> If God is infact not real and evelution is why we are here then why where there
apes before us?

Maybe there is no reason why. There might be an answer to "how" did we come about, but not necessarily why (other that "just because").

> Whats the point of?

Does there have to be a point?

> It must have been conceived that
people(that is selfconsous organisims) where to come into existance other
wise what is it all for?

A human's just a biological organism. Just as a chemical reaction can occur without it having been conceived, a series of biological reactions can occur without it having been conceived.

> By that I mean whats the point of there being a
universe or single cell organisims or grass or trees? ]

That might be something we'll never know.

> If there was never
gonna be a creature that would appriciate it all?

The problem I have with this kind of reasoning is that you're invoking the idea that the universe was created by some entity, and in your human-centered point of view you obviously invoke the idea that this entity for some reason prefers biological organism, especially homo sapiens sapiens.

If there were a creator entity why wouldn't it prefer chemical reactions? There are far more chemical reactions going on that human actions? Why wouldn't it prefer mathematics? Why should it choose anything? Why do you perceive that there's something out there that has made a choice at all?


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InvisibleKid
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 07/21/00
Posts: 2,365
Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: tox]
    #385428 - 09/04/01 10:26 AM (22 years, 5 months ago)

If we didn't have hydrogen bonding water would evaporate far below zero celcius and life as we know it would not be possible.


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Anonymous

Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: plague member]
    #385615 - 09/04/01 04:04 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

but where did god come from? does god have a god? I personally feel, well it's true that, everything is energy. This energy flows in and out of everything and everyone. Our minds decide that we are unique, and we are because we all think independently and in a unique way. But the energy that gives our minds the power to think is the same. I'm sure a lot of you have felt this energy in it's purist form at one point or another. It is the essence of everything . . .
Let's say then that this energy is God, or if not, it is God's energy. Then we are left with the idea that we are all essentually this energy. So then, we are all god. We are not seperate... this energy that is god doesn't die, it has no boundry, it connects everything.
And since I've basically started rambling like a mad man...
maybe we aren't even us. Maybe we are all in the imagination of one individual...

okay, I'll stop now... thank you for your time =)

Deep in the vortex I rest... clueless to time, for madness has its own circle.

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InvisibletrendalM
J♠
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: plague member]
    #385638 - 09/04/01 04:41 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

I once read a mathematical proof that God exists. It had to do with causality and the theory that the universe began as an uncausable event (something that defies causality). It was quite interesting.

On the other hand, I have read some theories that make the idea of God irrellivant. There's a theory called the "mltiverse theory" which states that there are an infinite number of universes and that each universe is a subtle variation of the other universes. In this theory EVERYTHING that could happen in a universe, has happened in some universe. So the formation of life was just a random event that happened to occur in X number of universes.

Just a couple sides of the argument to think about.

-----------------------
"Our culture's defined by the ones least defined..." -- The Offspring


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Offlinefiddler4u
enthusiast
Registered: 08/20/01
Posts: 282
Loc: Where the shrooms are gre...
Last seen: 21 years, 11 months
Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: plague member]
    #385803 - 09/04/01 08:02 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

Do you want to belive?....try this:
There is so much proof that everything that the bible speaks of is true, that it really isn't funny!
There also proof of a man being here that was named jesus, who was called the son of man.
Look around you....we keep track of time by his death.
I could go into sooooo much, but i will not.
I will tell you that i personal belive that shrooms were used.
Called manna. check it out.
GOD bless

I am the vine, you are the branches. If a man remains in me, and I in him, he will bare much fruit.
Apart from me you can do nothing. john 15:5


--------------------
I am the vine, you are the branches. If a man remains in me, and I in him, he will bare much fruit.
Apart from me you can do nothing. john 15:5

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Offlinefiddler4u
enthusiast
Registered: 08/20/01
Posts: 282
Loc: Where the shrooms are gre...
Last seen: 21 years, 11 months
Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: plague member]
    #385812 - 09/04/01 08:09 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

One more thing about the ape theory:
There have been over 54 cases/studies done where children grow up with human contact. None of them had any type of communication with anything. Animals are always being studied for this. They and us have to be taught no matter how you look at it.
Another pointer....pretty simple but if the world were to change axis by 1 degree either way, we wouldn't be talking right now.
I now some of this stuff is simple but thats all i really want to write right now....heh.
c ya


I am the vine, you are the branches. If a man remains in me, and I in him, he will bare much fruit.
Apart from me you can do nothing. john 15:5


--------------------
I am the vine, you are the branches. If a man remains in me, and I in him, he will bare much fruit.
Apart from me you can do nothing. john 15:5

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Offlinefiddler4u
enthusiast
Registered: 08/20/01
Posts: 282
Loc: Where the shrooms are gre...
Last seen: 21 years, 11 months
Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: plague member]
    #385818 - 09/04/01 08:12 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

Me again...sorry about this.
about MANNA. in the bible GOD says he uses this as a tool to see if were going to follow his law. So in a sence it's not a tool for us, but for him.

I am the vine, you are the branches. If a man remains in me, and I in him, he will bare much fruit.
Apart from me you can do nothing. john 15:5


--------------------
I am the vine, you are the branches. If a man remains in me, and I in him, he will bare much fruit.
Apart from me you can do nothing. john 15:5

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Offlinemountainbiker
Stranger
Registered: 09/02/01
Posts: 11
Last seen: 22 years, 3 months
Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: fiddler4u]
    #386169 - 09/05/01 08:20 AM (22 years, 5 months ago)

hi all. i'm new here and have ideas on the below, and how it relates to the idea that God must exist.

>There's a theory called the "mltiverse theory" which states that there are an infinite number of universes and that each universe is a subtle variation of the other universes. In this theory EVERYTHING that could happen in a universe, has happened in some universe.

i agree with this, and would like to expand on it. Infinity is something that humans can't fully grasp, by it's very nature, of course. We can only realise part of infinity. If we were to somehow see more of infinity than is humanly possible, we would go mad or die of shock. But the nature of infinity implies that nothing is impossible, that infact EVERYTHING IS. And not just physical universes. Any idea or crazy universe or reality you can imagine is manifest in the infinite fractal matrix of all.

Edited by mountainbiker on 09/05/01 10:37 AM.


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InvisiblePynchon
Slow Learner

Registered: 04/28/01
Posts: 578
Loc: New Zealand
Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: mountainbiker]
    #386201 - 09/05/01 09:38 AM (22 years, 5 months ago)

Maybe some definitions are in order...

"universe" = all that can be known -- so perhaps to speculate on "other universes" is a contradiction in terms? This is the problem I have with the so-called multi-verse theory -- it's not a scientific theory at all, given that it can't be used to make any predictions, nor can it say much about the early history of our universe -- it attempts to define the logical difficulty of creation away -- and a definition is a million miles south of an explanation...

Paul Davies has made valiant attempts to explain the origin of life and conciousness by suggesting that, in addition to the underlying laws of physics, there are "complementary" laws that come into play at a certain levels of complexity -- ie, as far as Darwin was concerned, the mechanism of evolution was entirely predicated upon reproduction -- organisms which reproduced the "best" survived...so why isn't the world filled with furiously replicating ameoba's? All a single-celled organism need do to replicate is split itself in two -- no slipping cheerleaders rohypnol required! -- but here we are...why? Davies suggests that the laws of biology(and by extension, those of physics) are not on their own enough to answer these questions...he uses automata theory and the famed Belousov-Zhabatinski reaction to conjecture that, given certain boundary conditions, order and complexity must -- or at least, should -- arise from apparent quantum chaos...

Also, he takes drugs.


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InvisibletrendalM
J♠
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: Pynchon]
    #386211 - 09/05/01 09:49 AM (22 years, 5 months ago)

In the book The Lost World (the sequal to Jurassic Park) there is a nice explanation for evolution and the existance of life given by Ian Malcom. I don't have the book in front of me but it goes something along the lines that chaos theory shows that life and DNA and evolution are the only possible outcomes of a chaotic system.

I know it's just a fictional book, but Chriton uses real science when writing so I wouldn't be surprised if this was an actual theory.

-----------------------
"Our culture's defined by the ones least defined..." -- The Offspring


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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InvisiblePynchon
Slow Learner

Registered: 04/28/01
Posts: 578
Loc: New Zealand
Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: trendal]
    #386233 - 09/05/01 10:35 AM (22 years, 5 months ago)

Crichton uses psuedo-science to make money...maybe I should have said that when a system is pushed into non-equilibrium -- chaos -- creativity can spontaneously appear...without necessarily requiring any screwy god-stuff to guest-star...stuff that is by definition impossible to predict according to the "lower" laws. It's important to remember tho, that these new laws can't be in contradiction to the basic laws of physics, they can only be...supplementary?

There is some evidence to suggest that evolution actually did occur this way -- I mean spontaneously, in steps, not as a long, drawn-out process...particularly in regards to complex organs...after all, of what concievable evolutionary value is half an eye? Half an ear? Random gen. mutations can't be responsible for these...not to say that there is some "end-product" the universe has in mind(teleology), rather that the universe is as scoobied as the rest of us, and she's trying out any and all designs that might work...she just has an awful lot of material to work with...

Does zetek read this forum? He/she could put this much better than I can...

Edited by Pynchon on 09/05/01 11:37 AM.


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Offlineplague member
member
Registered: 01/09/01
Posts: 59
Loc: The Great white north
Last seen: 22 years, 7 days
Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: NDK]
    #386427 - 09/05/01 04:58 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

I tried to be as clear as I cloud but I guess its like that
part of the mushroom trip that you cant ever explain in
words but somehow still understand it.

I wish I could help you guys understand what im trying to
say, Ohwell....

Thanks for listening,

Ryan

--------------------------

"As you cross the six, seven gram barrier with mushrooms, it becomes less like a drug in the ordinary sense and more like a hapening ,an experience that is unique."


--------------------
"As you cross the six, seven gram barrier with mushrooms, it becomes less like a drug in the ordinary sense and more like a hapening ,an experience that is unique."

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Offlinegnrm23
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/29/99
Posts: 6,488
Loc: n. e. OH, USSA
Last seen: 4 months, 25 days
Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: plague member]
    #386457 - 09/05/01 06:09 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

it's the short words that are slippery...
(attributed to michael valentine smith, THE MAN FROM MARS!!!)

old enough to know better
not old enough to care


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care

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InvisibleNDK
member
Registered: 07/13/01
Posts: 186
Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: gnrm23]
    #386808 - 09/06/01 03:32 AM (22 years, 5 months ago)

Half an eye wouldn't happen nor need to. Eyes have been developing for millions of years, probably from vaguely photosensitive cells. There is evidence for environmental events that "sped up" evolution if that is a useful way of looking at it. But steps like no eye to eye could not have happened.


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InvisiblePynchon
Slow Learner

Registered: 04/28/01
Posts: 578
Loc: New Zealand
Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: NDK]
    #386874 - 09/06/01 07:13 AM (22 years, 5 months ago)

I didn't literally mean that there were animals roaming around with half an eye...I was trying to illustrate that completely new structures like eyes(or a central nervous system, or a brain or...)can't be explained away as mere chance mutations in response to environmental challenge...

Sure, steps like no eye to eye probably couldn't have happened...but I still believe biological evolution arose according to the same general principle that governs complexity in chem. or physics. -- non-random abrupt transitions.


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Offlinefiddler4u
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Registered: 08/20/01
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Loc: Where the shrooms are gre...
Last seen: 21 years, 11 months
Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: Pynchon]
    #387226 - 09/06/01 06:16 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

So on your theory.....what drives it? When you break it all down....whats the story...where's the genuis of it. If we all stop reproducing and die off...does that mean where gone for good. If thats the case(the meaning of life) then i should just go-out...buy gun, and rent a bullit, and say to hell with it all(but then their wouldn't be any hell). Then if so then that means I do understand the true meaning of life (right now...today this very minute), thus I understand infinity. I do not consider myself to be mad.....do you?

I am the vine, you are the branches. If a man remains in me, and I in him, he will bare much fruit.
Apart from me you can do nothing. john 15:5


--------------------
I am the vine, you are the branches. If a man remains in me, and I in him, he will bare much fruit.
Apart from me you can do nothing. john 15:5

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Offlinegnrm23
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/29/99
Posts: 6,488
Loc: n. e. OH, USSA
Last seen: 4 months, 25 days
Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: fiddler4u]
    #387294 - 09/06/01 07:31 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

i am...
thou art...
all that groks...
is...
god...
~~~
mud... comet residues... starstuff, all of it... bits of matter, dancing, clinging, changing, staying the same... autopoeisis... replication... sharing information, adapting to changes in the world and changing the world to optimize for life... life combining into new communiities... prokaryotes conspiring to invent eukaryotes... thus sex, death, reproduction entwined... but more opportunities to change... move from water to land, to sky... to space next? consciousness --- more observer capacity, information transfer, possibilities blossom... and lurking like a strange attractor, as we antientropic communities dance over the sea of chaos... timewave zero, the omega point... are we ready?

old enough to know better
not old enough to care


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care

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OfflineCACA
veteran
Registered: 07/12/01
Posts: 1,122
Last seen: 21 years, 10 months
Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: NDK]
    #387309 - 09/06/01 07:40 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

Maybe not "no eye" to "eye", but there are always black dots in the white and white in the black and grey thats the grey in the middle. Somewhere beyond the grey, where there is a white dot all by itself, that could be the "half eye".

:frown: I believe in Mr. Grieves !


--------------------
"I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." John 15:5

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Offlineplague member
member
Registered: 01/09/01
Posts: 59
Loc: The Great white north
Last seen: 22 years, 7 days
Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: CACA]
    #387341 - 09/06/01 08:05 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

I guess I just have a hard time believing that some random
change created selfconscious highly intelligent creatures.

I guess some people will never get it

Ryan
----------------------

"As you cross the six, seven gram barrier with mushrooms, it becomes less like a drug in the ordinary sense and more like a hapening ,an experience that is unique."


--------------------
"As you cross the six, seven gram barrier with mushrooms, it becomes less like a drug in the ordinary sense and more like a hapening ,an experience that is unique."

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OfflineCACA
veteran
Registered: 07/12/01
Posts: 1,122
Last seen: 21 years, 10 months
Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: plague member]
    #387356 - 09/06/01 08:18 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

I do believe that there is a God. I believe that there is nothing that can ever prove that he does not exist. Any thought out charge of nonexistence brought against him most likely just a list of details coming from a person's point of view. You know, that makes the Bible so much more important, since it is written from the only point of view that can surely never conflict with truth-whether that truth is known now or is known later. I think that we can never understand God anymore than we can already in this existence and that is one reason why it is said that God "works in mysterious ways". Anyways, there is no way to argue with God. He is the one who gave humans the very logic they use and I believe that is why he can defy it.

:frown: I believe in Mr. Grieves !


--------------------
"I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." John 15:5

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InvisiblePynchon
Slow Learner

Registered: 04/28/01
Posts: 578
Loc: New Zealand
Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: plague member]
    #387571 - 09/06/01 11:37 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

Thats just it...random changes on their own aren't enough to account for conciousness -- sapiens = "to know" -- I'm saying there are more laws at work here than there appears...complexity, un-predictability pop up in inanimate systems too...think how easy it is to generate pi, with its infinite string of numerical static...but most religious people don't see the connection.

As to what drives all this, god remains a perfectly acceptable hypothesis -- tho I personally think religious belief creates more problems than it solves(relax CACA, I mean logically, not morally). You can still believe in god in the age of reason, you just don't have to...

But, um...I guess some people will never get it?


Edited by Pynchon on 09/07/01 03:43 AM.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: fiddler4u]
    #387629 - 09/07/01 12:47 AM (22 years, 5 months ago)

Have you ever stopped to wonder if there is no answer? That maybe we are just a random event in an infinite universe? It's hard to belive, but in an infinite universe life would HAVE to exist somewhere and sometime. Think about it. If the universe is infinite, then EVERYTHING exists. So life has to exist as part of an infinite system.

I'm just making an observation. Please note that I do believe in some sort of higher being who brought the universe into existance.

-----------------------
"Our culture's defined by the ones least defined..." -- The Offspring


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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OfflineCACA
veteran
Registered: 07/12/01
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Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: Pynchon]
    #387652 - 09/07/01 01:22 AM (22 years, 5 months ago)

The harder you look, the more complex things will get, but some things never change.

:frown: I believe in Mr. Grieves !


--------------------
"I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." John 15:5

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InvisibleJared
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Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: plague member]
    #387655 - 09/07/01 01:29 AM (22 years, 5 months ago)

Your post makes no cohereant sense to me.. Chemical reactions.. heat.. diferent, electricity all teh thigns present on the earth before life. These combined to make the differnet things inside modernday cells. Mitochondria, nucleus, ribosomes, etc. These things came together to createa single celled organism, worked together. Then these cells began working together in yet another step as a multi-celular organism. Procaryoritc and Eucaryotic organisms began to appear more and more, then more complex examples of each. Eventually over time we ahve what we have now.. god didnt start the begining shit. It was jsut step by step, the small formation of a cyst filled with a certain chemical which prduced atp met up with another that sent out electrical signals etc.. happening trillions upon trillions of times everywhere at once would eventually lead to some sort of life forming.. I've lost the point of my psot so I'll stop now..

Namaste

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OfflineCACA
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Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: Pynchon]
    #387965 - 09/07/01 01:03 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

That was thoughtful. =)

:frown: I believe in Mr. Grieves !


--------------------
"I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." John 15:5

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InvisibleGabbaDjS
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Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: trendal]
    #388203 - 09/07/01 06:36 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

we are simply players in a vicsious repetitive cycle.. Ever hear the term"curiosity killed the cat" well thats exactly what we are going to do to ourselvs. and just as some other people did on some other planet thousands of light years away we too will kill ourselvs off along with most of the planets bio-organisms. then once inter stellar expansion pushes us far enough away from the sun to disrupt our orbit and the earths revolutions begin to slow, the lack of gravity will carry our basic "life" building blocks through the cosmos till they land in the atmosphere of a new budding planet with the same general atmosphere which started "our life".
to me life is easy to explain away, its origins will never be found because they have already been destroyed. what I want to know is. Where does instinct come from?

GabbaDj



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GabbaDj

FAMM.ORG             

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OfflineHB
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Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: plague member]
    #388986 - 09/08/01 10:00 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

I am fully agnostic. I try not to find out reasons for things and though there are billions of theories about everything, there are some things which we may never know and to me, this means that it isn't worth thinking about. I have had insights into creation etc but I haven't come up with anything good. and another reason I avoid religious issues is because I can't stand religions and I get very pissed easily when in a debate about religion. that is the hardest topic for me to keep my cool on. i already feel anger, so I am going to stop writing

We're all MADD here...

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Offline~`Tursiops truncatus`~
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Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: GabbaDj]
    #388993 - 09/08/01 10:07 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

"The mystery of life is not a problem to be solved but a reallity to be experienced" ~
~ Some guy I forgot the name of. . .

You breath in you breath out, You came out of "The Void" and eventually you'll go back to it. The universe is made up of cycles and as you all probably know circles are endlessssss. We are the universe experiencing itself and that's all there is to it, and once you realize this you will see that everything around you is perfect just the way it is, there will be no more need to use classifications or definitions to builld up a false sense of what reallity is, because all you will have to do is look feel taste hear and smell. Enjoy your senses while you have them cause they're all we have to experience ourself with =D AHHHHHHHHHHH!!!! words suck!! The only thing words can express is other words, and yet so many people base thier reallitys on theroys and concepts and ideas which are all vocabablee based. It's no wonder people are so confused, and I'm probably just making it worse so I'll shut my mouth now and go.








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OfflineShroomph
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Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: plague member]
    #389032 - 09/08/01 10:54 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

I believe in God, Jesus, Christianity... the whole bit. I once referred to myself as a Christian, although now, I feel that I have "fallen from grace". I was brought up with the teaching of eternal salvation (once saved, always saved), but I just don't buy that. I've found that God's thick book of rules is a little hard for me to live by at this point in my life.
I realize, here at the Shroomery, my beliefs will probably be laughed at; I may even get flamed. I don't really care. What really saddens me are the anti-christian people; people that label christians as "upper/middle class, holier than thou pricks who would rather point their finger at somebody elses' wrong doings". Sadly enough, there are people like that. It really pisses me off when I'm surfing through the channels and I get to one of the Christian stations and it has this woman with like really BIG blonde hair, fake tits (and yeah, it's easy to tell), tight clothes, a facelift, and sitting in what looks like a chair made of solid gold. Let me set the record straight... that's not what Christianity is about and that's not how God tells his people to act. It's about humility and meekness; it's about belief and faith.
Back to my point, I believe in God; others do not and I have no problem with that. I may think your beliefs are incorrect, but I'm certainly not going to put you down for it. Give others the same respect.

Why, oh, why didn't I take the BLUE pill?
Join the fight against marijuana prohibition; join NORML


--------------------
Why, oh, why didn't I take the BLUE pill?
Join the fight against marijuana prohibition; join NORML

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OfflineMrKurtz
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Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: plague member]
    #389127 - 09/09/01 01:18 AM (22 years, 5 months ago)

well, if you look at how things evolved through time, they started as mindless single cell organisms, and slowly they became more and more intelligent. probably because intelligence always wins over physical prowess (thats why the dinosaurs died out). i think, we're here because we are better at surviving then anything else to date.

as for higher beings... i don't believe or disbelieve in them. if they are greater then me, i can't understand them, so whats the use in trying? can a dog understand what a human is? hell, can a human really understand what he is? everyone can believe what they want.. but it all adds up to nothing i guess.


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Offlinelucid_dreams
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Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: MrKurtz]
    #389524 - 09/09/01 03:50 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

I know nothing of god, i can't bring myself to have faith
without proof. but i still feel the need to have faith in
something, so i put my faith in things i see are true. i
see that we all come from two creators not one, a mother
and a father. i see the earth fits the mother role
nicely,it nurtures our every need, and appears to be a
living being.and in turn the sun fits the father role,
giving his warming love,and wacthing over us. so i put
apply that to my every day life, i thank mother earth when
i eat and for any thing she supplies for me, and when im in
need, i pray to my father for guidence. i learn and use
alot of my tribes oldways(Dakota) . its hard thou, most
ways of my tribe are long gone replaced by christan beleifs



you only need what you take with you
>>>>>>>>>>>>MIND YOUR HEAD<<<<<<<<


--------------------

when injecting rust, sniff lunar dust
>>>>>>>>>>>>MIND YOUR HEAD<<<<<<<<<<<

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Offlinealuminum_can
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Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: plague member]
    #389525 - 09/09/01 03:50 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

it all was a mistake!!! we are just people. the universe just fuckin happened. it is crazy. god and the universe are the same thing. it is just like a vocabulary word. god is just another way of putting it so we arent confused. i personnaly dont believe in that shit, it is just a waste of time. it is like when people see me rambling on about crazy acid trips i had. when i see some person talking about god, it makes me think that they are crazy and must have some probs if they need to make sure everyone believes in god. i am also starting to hate it when people talk shit on our society!!! our society is awsome, and we just dont know it. we have built up communities and other things that makes the human race better than others. we dont even know how much we rely on instincts. i dont like the fact that we are so intent on having money and becoming famouse though. were all famouse!!! if someone knows youre name then you are famouse. just because you dont see your little ugly face on the television everyday we freak out. there is this girl in one of my classes whos head i fuck with!!! it is the funniest shit!!! she always gets these good grades and she has started surfing since "it is the hardest sport to do and if i get good at it then other sports will be a little bit easier". it is like she thinks of reasons for things, but these truely are excuses. it doesnt seems like she even enjoys surfing. and she thinks shes all hot and shit!!! it is fun just to fuck with peoples heads that are all into the things that arent real, like pop music and television. it really makes my day.

so back to the god thing. i dont see how people can believe in this spirit. humans dont have spirits, they have brains!!! brains that we dont know how to use!!! this is the confusing part of life. you ever feel like youre doing something wright, but then again, it is so wrong? i hate that!!! we need to get over that.

one plus one plus one equals three


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the little kridders of nature; they dont know that thyre ugly!


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Offlinezetek
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Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: Pynchon]
    #389601 - 09/09/01 05:35 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

In reply to:

There is some evidence to suggest that evolution actually did occur this way -- I mean spontaneously, in steps, not as a long, drawn-out process...particularly in regards to complex organs...after all, of what concievable evolutionary value is half an eye? Half an ear? Random gen. mutations can't be responsible for these...not to say that there is some "end-product" the universe has in mind(teleology), rather that the universe is as scoobied as the rest of us, and she's trying out any and all designs that might work...she just has an awful lot of material to work with...

Does zetek read this forum? He/she could put this much better than I can...




Hi, Pynchon. Funny, I don't usually check out this forum at the Shroomery but since I've been busy posting on this subject area elsewhere on the WWW, I thought I'd take a peek in here. Have I posted something dealing with this previously in The Shroomery, or have you coincidentally been to the same sites I have recently, i.e. "educating Connie"?

NDK and yourself understand biological evolution but if anyone reading this thread wants to do some more specific posting on the topic of how organisms evolve, I'd be happy to discuss.

Cheers.




Edited by zetek on 09/09/01 06:39 PM.


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OfflineCACA
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Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: aluminum_can]
    #389617 - 09/09/01 05:56 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

aluminum, you are nice and everything and helpful when you can be, but you never have anything solid to say. "I think my dick is a lollipop, because it is shaped like one."

:frown: I believe in Mr. Grieves !


--------------------
"I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." John 15:5

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Offline~`Tursiops truncatus`~
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Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: CACA]
    #389948 - 09/10/01 02:31 AM (22 years, 5 months ago)

I enjoy chocolate donuts


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InvisiblePynchon
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Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: zetek]
    #389995 - 09/10/01 05:37 AM (22 years, 5 months ago)

'lo, zetek --

Nope, haven't been to the site you mentioned, but I remember reading a post of yours in political discussion where you mentioned you were a biologist -- and I could have sworn your title-thingee used to say "bi-pedal primate"...plus you do a pretty good job of staying calm and rational with some of the other polital discussion regulars, something I thought would come in handy here given the subject matter...

Yeesh, I've gotta get a life sometime...


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Offlinezetek
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Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: Pynchon]
    #390007 - 09/10/01 06:10 AM (22 years, 5 months ago)

Ah... yeah, zoologist. Thanks for the compliments. I've been busy "debating" a very tenacious creationist whom I connected with through another very highly perused site. The eye subject was mentioned so I thought you'd seen it.


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Anonymous

Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: ~`Tursiops truncatus`~]
    #390020 - 09/10/01 07:00 AM (22 years, 5 months ago)

I can't eat chocolate donuts without a glass of milk. I prefer one with powdered donuts too, but I can get away with not having any for them.

Deep in the vortex I rest... clueless to time, for madness has its own circle.

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Offlinealuminum_can
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Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: ~`Tursiops truncatus`~]
    #390396 - 09/10/01 04:02 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

i know!!! thats the great part about it!! it is slowly becoming easier to do things for me, since i just dont give a shit, and any single tiny thought that i get i can explain it and give excuses for reasons for things. sometimes i dont make sense to myself!! i just try my hardest to say thoughts. really weird!!

one plus one plus one equals three


--------------------
the little kridders of nature; they dont know that thyre ugly!


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OfflineCACA
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Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: aluminum_can]
    #390769 - 09/10/01 09:38 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

... you're happy about talking nonsense...?.. i am not saying that i don't understand what you're saying, i am saying that you talk bullshit and that what you have to say won't get anyone to understand any truth. you speak nontruth and anyone can do that.

:frown: I believe in Mr. Grieves !


--------------------
"I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." John 15:5

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OfflineSurf Bum
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Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: plague member]
    #390820 - 09/10/01 10:38 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

Considering the universe is infinite and everything exists, then wouldn't things replicate like randomly... wouldn't things be repeated and in an infinite pool of random repeating wouldn't alternate earths that randomly formed to the exact of ours be relative? like i have this weird conclusion that if you can "understand" infinity then couldn't far away the exact world be replicated to the exact, with everyone and everything existing an infinite number of times, doing the exact thing you and i are doing on this rock we call home. another weird thing i think about is that everything goes both ways, like we think of aliens as being human sized creatures, but wouldn't it make sense that they could be minut small and exist millions of times smaller than a cell for example? then i go back to the old episode of "kids in the hall" "i'm squishing your head, i'm squishing your head" except i go, "i'm squishing your universe, i'm squishing your universe" Peace



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OfflineArCh_TemPlaR
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Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: plague member]
    #391799 - 09/11/01 10:00 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

I ran across this webiste: www.skepticsannotatedbible.com. I browsed through some of it's interpretations of the Bible, both Old and New Testament. I have yet to verify the veracity of the interpreter's 'opnions'. Thought, he doesn't paint a pretty picture of (uh) 'God.'


For Twilight


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Offlinepyromaniac
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Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: ArCh_TemPlaR]
    #391815 - 09/11/01 10:21 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

The theory of evolution makes way to much sense for me to believe in some higher being or whatever. I personally can believe that we evolved from single-celled bacteria (eukaryotic cells, archaebacteria, whatever it is). Evolution is a rather simple theory that people get confused about a little too easy, I just think it makes more sense than "god".

Support the FSR!


--------------------
I admit it, Im a fungal-feliac :wink:
Support the FSR!

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OfflineCACA
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Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: pyromaniac]
    #391887 - 09/11/01 11:32 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

Except for the fact that you have no idea why anything is here for those "simple" things to happen. How did something come out of nothing???? You tell me. Even extreme evolutionists have become Zions after going so deep into it, because they see the truth.

:frown: I believe in Mr. Grieves !


--------------------
"I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." John 15:5

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Offlinezetek
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Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: CACA]
    #392235 - 09/12/01 10:35 AM (22 years, 5 months ago)

Evolution has nothing to say about the origin of life. That's something called abiogenesis which is better left to biochemists rather than biologists.


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OfflineCACA
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Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: zetek]
    #392405 - 09/12/01 02:05 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

Yeah, I was trying to tell that to the other guy. He is trying to say that he would rather believe in evolution than some higher power, but those are two different issues.

:frown: I believe in Mr. Grieves !


--------------------
"I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." John 15:5

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Offlinezetek
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Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: CACA]
    #392709 - 09/12/01 07:15 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

Even so, abiogenesis can be plausibly explained by biochemists. It doesn't take a god to cause life. Or a lot of other phenomena. The "God of the Gaps" has a piss-poor record. Humanity has a tendency to attribute things that it doesn't understand to a/ god(s). That/those god(s) keep getting pushed farther and farther back into corners as we dissect and understand the universe.


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OfflineCACA
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Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: zetek]
    #392769 - 09/12/01 08:06 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

If they are being pushed farther back in your mind, it is because you haven't or don't want to see the connections. You tell me how there was nothing and then there was something. Do you think that there was nothing anywhere and then there was something- anything?? Not any "life" in particular, just anything. Do you really think that that anything just CAME ? "Something just came to be." Thats what you're saying? Explain it any way you want. Understand things in ways that you want to. Go ahead. Tell me now why these prophecies are coming true and how they could be true, but the message cannot be. Tell me how, now. Read what is going on in the world. Read how it was foretold. Don't be blind and full of yourself in your knowledge. You will run into new secrets. Darwin finds out about evolution and immediately man wants to use it to sever his ties to God and accountability. Today, evolution is not a valid argument to raise when discussing whether or not God exists. So will any new findings end up, eventually.

:frown: I believe in Mr. Grieves !


--------------------
"I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." John 15:5

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InvisibleKid
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Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: CACA]
    #392966 - 09/12/01 11:09 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

Maybe there is no time, and time is only the apparation of different possible paths along configuration space, and it just so happens that this configuration space path is one that has "snapshots" of other configuration spaces in our nervous systems, giving us the impression of time. So, the instant is not in time, but time is in the instant.


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OfflineCACA
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Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: Kid]
    #393245 - 09/13/01 10:22 AM (22 years, 5 months ago)

Keep trying to get out of it. Yours and other humans efforts were also inevitable. There is no time if you want there to not be time. We, however live by time. It doesn't matter. Whether or not a person believes they are living by time or not, what was said will happen, whether it happens in time or in an instant or if you feel that you're outside of time when it happens or whatever.

:frown: I believe in Mr. Grieves !


--------------------
"I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." John 15:5

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Offlinezetek
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Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: CACA]
    #393327 - 09/13/01 12:17 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

In reply to:

Do you think that there was nothing anywhere and then there was something- anything??




Sounds good enough to me. I'm sure as hell not going to complicate the matter by assuming there had to be some big, pre-existing ghost in order for the universe to exist. Where'd the ghost come from?

Occam's Razor: One should not make more assumptions than the minimum needed.

In reply to:

Tell me now why these prophecies are coming true and how they could be true, but the message cannot be.




What prophecies?

In reply to:

Darwin finds out about evolution and immediately man wants to use it to sever his ties to God and accountability.



If someone wants to toss their religion or their accountability, they don't need Charles Darwin to do that.

In reply to:

Today, evolution is not a valid argument to raise when discussing whether or not God exists.




I'm aware of that; I'm not the one that raised it. I simply responded when I was cited as being knowledgeable of evolutionary biology.

The "god of the gaps" concept is useful however, in pointing out to theists that just because we don't know the mechanism of something, it does not necessitate the existance of a god to explain it.


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OfflineCACA
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Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: zetek]
    #393338 - 09/13/01 12:30 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

You won't "complicate" matters? Its all you want to do. Science is the one that has brought complication. Why were you not aware of this?

:frown: I believe in Mr. Grieves !


--------------------
"I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." John 15:5

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OfflineCACA
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Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: zetek]
    #393340 - 09/13/01 12:38 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

If you want to be a robot, then you can say that Occam's Razor is going to run your life. You can make many "assumptions", but if you make the one that matters most, it is the only thing that matters. If you have no soul, Occam's Razor works with the argument. I didn't say that you brough it up. I brought up the fact that the evolution excuse for putting off God is now useless and that is a model for the rest of "breakthroughs". If you have no conscience, you can call believing in God an assumption, but to a person who is ready to accept the truth, it is not. You are only serving what your brain wants, which is very impressionable in this day. What about the rest of you? You have other parts to you. That's like saying that a person doesn't want to live just to live and instead living for their number 2, their quality of existence - i.e. pleasures. We are not cats. We are, however, humans.

:frown: I believe in Mr. Grieves !


--------------------
"I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." John 15:5

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Offlinegaastra
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Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: Shroomph]
    #393349 - 09/13/01 12:44 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

"There is definetly a god!!"

--Me while shroomin

Humans are self-conscious, but apes are not, so when was the EXACT instant where non-self-consciousness became self consciousness? what happened at the precise monent?

thats what i want to know



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Offlinezetek
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Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: CACA]
    #393362 - 09/13/01 12:57 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

In reply to:

You won't "complicate" matters? Its all you want to do. Science is the one that has brought complication. Why were you not aware of this?



You make no sense here. How does science complicate? It explains by breaking wholes into simpler parts.




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OfflineCACA
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Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: zetek]
    #393365 - 09/13/01 12:59 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

Tell me what is more complicated, a stick or a nuclear bomb? We do have the responsibility in having the ability for such science to ourselves to do what we will after careful consideration only.

:frown: I believe in Mr. Grieves !


--------------------
"I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." John 15:5

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Offlinezetek
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Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: CACA]
    #393368 - 09/13/01 01:01 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

In reply to:

If you want to be a robot, then you can say that Occam's Razor is going to run your life. You can make many "assumptions", but if you make the one that matters most, it is the only thing that matters. If you have no soul, Occam's Razor works with the argument. I didn't say that you brough it up. I brought up the fact that the evolution excuse for putting off God is now useless and that is a model for the rest of "breakthroughs". If you have no conscience, you can call believing in God an assumption, but to a person who is ready to accept the truth, it is not. You are only serving what your brain wants, which is very impressionable in this day. What about the rest of you? You have other parts to you. That's like saying that a person doesn't want to live just to live and instead living for their number 2, their quality of existence - i.e. pleasures. We are not cats. We are, however, humans.




You've lost me here... I choose to make decisions using logic and reason, if that in anyway replies to the above ramblings.




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OfflineCACA
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Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: zetek]
    #393371 - 09/13/01 01:03 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

How can you ever say that science has not complicated things? This level of science, it was inevitable. Science has helped us stay alive longer, but we now understand genetic code. Is it easier and more healthy to accept death or do we keep trying to keep ourselves alive ? What is suicide? What is wrong? Ends justify means when? It is about not being selfish.

:frown: I believe in Mr. Grieves !


--------------------
"I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." John 15:5

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Offlinezetek
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Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: gaastra]
    #393372 - 09/13/01 01:03 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

In reply to:

Humans are self-conscious, but apes are not,




At first read I'd have to disagree with this. Please elaborate on what you mean by "self-conscious." Self-aware?


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OfflineCACA
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Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: zetek]
    #393376 - 09/13/01 01:06 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

lol sorry. When I was talking about when I said that I didn't bring it up was in reference to the Darwin thing. rambling?

:frown: I believe in Mr. Grieves !


--------------------
"I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." John 15:5

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Offlinezetek
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Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: CACA]
    #393384 - 09/13/01 01:12 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

I prefer to make a distinction between something being "complicated" and something being "complex" which you seem to be referring to. Something is complicated if it is hard to understand. Science makes things easier to understand by giving us knowledge that we didn't previously have. DNA was complicated (hard to understand or explain) before Watson & Crick described it. So I see the process of science as a way of un-complicating things.


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OfflineCACA
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Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: zetek]
    #393394 - 09/13/01 01:27 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

You are right. What I meant was complex. Sorry. But, how to you understand these things in the first place? You look complication in the eyes and get down to it. Everytime I think of science, I picture a young boy who always goes straight to the middle of his Twinkie, to get to the cream or a young one who broke his new remote-controlled car to get the magnet out. The problem with science is that when it wants to be, it is completely superficial. If it ever wanted to explain something, it would. If the user does not want to, science doesn't have to. I mean, I knew you were going to say that science uncomplicates things... okay. Osama Bin Laden is known to have many cells that operate knowing not enough of the big picture to comprimise any operation. With all of our science, the computer popped out of the womb. Now, it is harder than ever to stop these people. Through the ages, things have been able to be done, but the level of diffuculty has gone up. Whether someone is up to the task or not is not the question. The question is what is making things harder and harder? Now there are psychiatrists to help us with this stress. We have backups for our backups. Science definitely complicates life. It isn't the only thing science does to life, it does do nice things like provide us with air conditioning.... but when you are barreling down the road in the sitting position in a chunk of metal and it makes sense, because you have to drive to get to the place you need to get to because the place you live in is so large that walking is not a realistic option, don't you think that things are a little more complicated? How can you argue this point at all ? Have you ever seen the Andy Griffith Show?? (I know that it came in on a television, but just look at what life it was trying to depict.) Just ... compare. Compare life then and now and even twenty years before that. Who cares about ignorance?

:frown: I believe in Mr. Grieves !

Edited by CACA on 09/14/01 02:30 AM.



--------------------
"I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." John 15:5

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Offlinegaastra
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Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: zetek]
    #393844 - 09/13/01 10:08 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

By being self conscious, we know we exist, and we question our existence.

I don't know for sure, but Apes act much on instinct and don't question thier existernce

I think thats what I mean



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OfflineArCh_TemPlaR
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Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: pyromaniac]
    #394000 - 09/14/01 01:27 AM (22 years, 5 months ago)

all it'll do is give you tunnel-vision. Evolution theory is just one subroutine in an algorithm design of a problem to be solved (if possible)

Algorithmic (Self-)Realization Structure is way of architeching insights, usable knowledge, and personal/spiritual cultivation. ASRS is like desigining a program with subrountines linked to the problem/goal.


For Twilight


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Offlinezetek
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Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: gaastra]
    #394040 - 09/14/01 04:31 AM (22 years, 5 months ago)

Abundant experimental and observational data have demonstrated that apes are self-aware.


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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: gaastra]
    #394083 - 09/14/01 06:34 AM (22 years, 5 months ago)

"apes are not self conscious..."
who told you that???

old enough to know better
not old enough to care


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care

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InvisiblePynchon
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Registered: 04/28/01
Posts: 578
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Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: gaastra]
    #394090 - 09/14/01 07:07 AM (22 years, 5 months ago)

gaastra --

Remember also that its not really accurate to say that "man came from the apes", as you imply. We share a common ancestor with modern apes. As for the "precise moment" of conciousness -- there are no precise moments in evolution...well, maybe one -- life from non-life? Maybe not even then if you subscribe to the "proteins-first" school...anyway...

CACA --

Don't confuse science with technology. Einstein wasn't thinking about nuclear weapons when he developed relativity...tho he did mention that, had he known what people would make of his discoveries, he would have become a watchmaker. Sure, technology can complicate our lives (recall whoever it was that said a labour-saving device had yet to be invented) but science seeks to "reduce"...which is exactly the problem many christians have with it..."We hope to explain the entire universe in a single, simple formula that you can wear on your t-shirt." -- attributed to Leon Lederman.

What interests me is why you're both so sure that evolution is incompatible with faith?




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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: gnrm23]
    #394091 - 09/14/01 07:24 AM (22 years, 5 months ago)

anyway... a bit of a drift from the necessity of god to the creationist/evolutionist controversy...
the desire to explain god by observing the complexity of the physical world (the so-called "argument from design") is an old one... deemed insufficient by modern philosophers, but still holding great popular appeal...
and a smart-cookie scientist like dr shulgin does not accept conventional interpretation of red-shift as indicative of a 16 billion year-ago "big bang"... but...
"fiat lux" --- let there be light... most likely something happened... and in this "local universe" energy and matter and time appeared... and eventually in our little corner of the local galaxy ("the milky way") our sun lit up to shine on planets developing... and on the one(s) where water could be liquid, soon after "life" appeared... ane, eventually, death as well... and a growing ability to sense "self" and "other" also started to appear... and some of the entities cultivated the ability to remember, and to plan, and to communicate, and to ponder... and here we are...
as to "god(s)" well, each must decide if that is an adequate explanation... but as to "spirit" well, each must experience...
buddha insisted that we take nothing on faith, except the possibility of "waking up" --- and yet we are given the pronouncement that "all sentient beings have buddha nature" ...
who is asking this question?
where did we come from?
what is next?
...
science tries to answer "how?"
religion tries to answer "why?"
...
here we are...
hello, goodbye...

old enough to know better
not old enough to care


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care

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OfflineCACA
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Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: Pynchon]
    #394370 - 09/14/01 02:30 PM (22 years, 5 months ago)

Science is the most important part in modern-day instructions/directions for technology; the use and construction of it. Why can't you just look back and see it???? Life was definitely easier before. Ask any old person. The more you try to have things your own way, the more problems you get. That one thing is connected to ever more problems, which to the person with that burning desire for information, might be very delicious. I have no problem with accepting the connections and the double-edged truths that signify the mirroring- not only the understandings or raw connections or self-implicating interests- of the two. Man tries to understand things his way and gets one answer for the simple answer that has already been given in some cases. These answers, once understood and edited by the whole of the scientific community, do not contradict existing answers or easier answers.

:frown: I believe in Mr. Grieves ! Also, everything in the above post is entirely fictional, like PC !


--------------------
"I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." John 15:5

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