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InvisiblePynchon
Slow Learner

Registered: 04/28/01
Posts: 578
Loc: New Zealand
Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: NDK]
    #386874 - 09/06/01 07:13 AM (23 years, 5 months ago)

I didn't literally mean that there were animals roaming around with half an eye...I was trying to illustrate that completely new structures like eyes(or a central nervous system, or a brain or...)can't be explained away as mere chance mutations in response to environmental challenge...

Sure, steps like no eye to eye probably couldn't have happened...but I still believe biological evolution arose according to the same general principle that governs complexity in chem. or physics. -- non-random abrupt transitions.


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Offlinefiddler4u
enthusiast
Registered: 08/20/01
Posts: 282
Loc: Where the shrooms are gre...
Last seen: 22 years, 10 months
Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: Pynchon]
    #387226 - 09/06/01 06:16 PM (23 years, 5 months ago)

So on your theory.....what drives it? When you break it all down....whats the story...where's the genuis of it. If we all stop reproducing and die off...does that mean where gone for good. If thats the case(the meaning of life) then i should just go-out...buy gun, and rent a bullit, and say to hell with it all(but then their wouldn't be any hell). Then if so then that means I do understand the true meaning of life (right now...today this very minute), thus I understand infinity. I do not consider myself to be mad.....do you?

I am the vine, you are the branches. If a man remains in me, and I in him, he will bare much fruit.
Apart from me you can do nothing. john 15:5


--------------------
I am the vine, you are the branches. If a man remains in me, and I in him, he will bare much fruit.
Apart from me you can do nothing. john 15:5

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Offlinegnrm23
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/29/99
Posts: 6,491
Loc: n. e. OH, USSA
Last seen: 1 month, 10 days
Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: fiddler4u]
    #387294 - 09/06/01 07:31 PM (23 years, 5 months ago)

i am...
thou art...
all that groks...
is...
god...
~~~
mud... comet residues... starstuff, all of it... bits of matter, dancing, clinging, changing, staying the same... autopoeisis... replication... sharing information, adapting to changes in the world and changing the world to optimize for life... life combining into new communiities... prokaryotes conspiring to invent eukaryotes... thus sex, death, reproduction entwined... but more opportunities to change... move from water to land, to sky... to space next? consciousness --- more observer capacity, information transfer, possibilities blossom... and lurking like a strange attractor, as we antientropic communities dance over the sea of chaos... timewave zero, the omega point... are we ready?

old enough to know better
not old enough to care


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care

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OfflineCACA
veteran
Registered: 07/12/01
Posts: 1,122
Last seen: 22 years, 9 months
Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: NDK]
    #387309 - 09/06/01 07:40 PM (23 years, 5 months ago)

Maybe not "no eye" to "eye", but there are always black dots in the white and white in the black and grey thats the grey in the middle. Somewhere beyond the grey, where there is a white dot all by itself, that could be the "half eye".

:frown: I believe in Mr. Grieves !


--------------------
"I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." John 15:5

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Offlineplague member
member
Registered: 01/09/01
Posts: 59
Loc: The Great white north
Last seen: 22 years, 11 months
Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: CACA]
    #387341 - 09/06/01 08:05 PM (23 years, 5 months ago)

I guess I just have a hard time believing that some random
change created selfconscious highly intelligent creatures.

I guess some people will never get it

Ryan
----------------------

"As you cross the six, seven gram barrier with mushrooms, it becomes less like a drug in the ordinary sense and more like a hapening ,an experience that is unique."


--------------------
"As you cross the six, seven gram barrier with mushrooms, it becomes less like a drug in the ordinary sense and more like a hapening ,an experience that is unique."

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OfflineCACA
veteran
Registered: 07/12/01
Posts: 1,122
Last seen: 22 years, 9 months
Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: plague member]
    #387356 - 09/06/01 08:18 PM (23 years, 5 months ago)

I do believe that there is a God. I believe that there is nothing that can ever prove that he does not exist. Any thought out charge of nonexistence brought against him most likely just a list of details coming from a person's point of view. You know, that makes the Bible so much more important, since it is written from the only point of view that can surely never conflict with truth-whether that truth is known now or is known later. I think that we can never understand God anymore than we can already in this existence and that is one reason why it is said that God "works in mysterious ways". Anyways, there is no way to argue with God. He is the one who gave humans the very logic they use and I believe that is why he can defy it.

:frown: I believe in Mr. Grieves !


--------------------
"I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." John 15:5

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InvisiblePynchon
Slow Learner

Registered: 04/28/01
Posts: 578
Loc: New Zealand
Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: plague member]
    #387571 - 09/06/01 11:37 PM (23 years, 5 months ago)

Thats just it...random changes on their own aren't enough to account for conciousness -- sapiens = "to know" -- I'm saying there are more laws at work here than there appears...complexity, un-predictability pop up in inanimate systems too...think how easy it is to generate pi, with its infinite string of numerical static...but most religious people don't see the connection.

As to what drives all this, god remains a perfectly acceptable hypothesis -- tho I personally think religious belief creates more problems than it solves(relax CACA, I mean logically, not morally). You can still believe in god in the age of reason, you just don't have to...

But, um...I guess some people will never get it?


Edited by Pynchon on 09/07/01 03:43 AM.


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InvisibletrendalM
J♠
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: fiddler4u]
    #387629 - 09/07/01 12:47 AM (23 years, 5 months ago)

Have you ever stopped to wonder if there is no answer? That maybe we are just a random event in an infinite universe? It's hard to belive, but in an infinite universe life would HAVE to exist somewhere and sometime. Think about it. If the universe is infinite, then EVERYTHING exists. So life has to exist as part of an infinite system.

I'm just making an observation. Please note that I do believe in some sort of higher being who brought the universe into existance.

-----------------------
"Our culture's defined by the ones least defined..." -- The Offspring


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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OfflineCACA
veteran
Registered: 07/12/01
Posts: 1,122
Last seen: 22 years, 9 months
Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: Pynchon]
    #387652 - 09/07/01 01:22 AM (23 years, 5 months ago)

The harder you look, the more complex things will get, but some things never change.

:frown: I believe in Mr. Grieves !


--------------------
"I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." John 15:5

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InvisibleJared
Stranger
Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/22/01
Posts: 8,783
Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: plague member]
    #387655 - 09/07/01 01:29 AM (23 years, 5 months ago)

Your post makes no cohereant sense to me.. Chemical reactions.. heat.. diferent, electricity all teh thigns present on the earth before life. These combined to make the differnet things inside modernday cells. Mitochondria, nucleus, ribosomes, etc. These things came together to createa single celled organism, worked together. Then these cells began working together in yet another step as a multi-celular organism. Procaryoritc and Eucaryotic organisms began to appear more and more, then more complex examples of each. Eventually over time we ahve what we have now.. god didnt start the begining shit. It was jsut step by step, the small formation of a cyst filled with a certain chemical which prduced atp met up with another that sent out electrical signals etc.. happening trillions upon trillions of times everywhere at once would eventually lead to some sort of life forming.. I've lost the point of my psot so I'll stop now..

Namaste

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OfflineCACA
veteran
Registered: 07/12/01
Posts: 1,122
Last seen: 22 years, 9 months
Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: Pynchon]
    #387965 - 09/07/01 01:03 PM (23 years, 5 months ago)

That was thoughtful. =)

:frown: I believe in Mr. Grieves !


--------------------
"I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." John 15:5

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InvisibleGabbaDjS
BTH
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/01
Posts: 19,696
Loc: By The Lake
Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: trendal]
    #388203 - 09/07/01 06:36 PM (23 years, 5 months ago)

we are simply players in a vicsious repetitive cycle.. Ever hear the term"curiosity killed the cat" well thats exactly what we are going to do to ourselvs. and just as some other people did on some other planet thousands of light years away we too will kill ourselvs off along with most of the planets bio-organisms. then once inter stellar expansion pushes us far enough away from the sun to disrupt our orbit and the earths revolutions begin to slow, the lack of gravity will carry our basic "life" building blocks through the cosmos till they land in the atmosphere of a new budding planet with the same general atmosphere which started "our life".
to me life is easy to explain away, its origins will never be found because they have already been destroyed. what I want to know is. Where does instinct come from?

GabbaDj



--------------------
GabbaDj

FAMM.ORG             

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OfflineHB
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/06/01
Posts: 42,528
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: plague member]
    #388986 - 09/08/01 10:00 PM (23 years, 5 months ago)

I am fully agnostic. I try not to find out reasons for things and though there are billions of theories about everything, there are some things which we may never know and to me, this means that it isn't worth thinking about. I have had insights into creation etc but I haven't come up with anything good. and another reason I avoid religious issues is because I can't stand religions and I get very pissed easily when in a debate about religion. that is the hardest topic for me to keep my cool on. i already feel anger, so I am going to stop writing

We're all MADD here...

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Offline~`Tursiops truncatus`~
enthusiast

Registered: 11/01/00
Posts: 105
Loc: CO... UsA
Last seen: 23 years, 1 month
Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: GabbaDj]
    #388993 - 09/08/01 10:07 PM (23 years, 5 months ago)

"The mystery of life is not a problem to be solved but a reallity to be experienced" ~
~ Some guy I forgot the name of. . .

You breath in you breath out, You came out of "The Void" and eventually you'll go back to it. The universe is made up of cycles and as you all probably know circles are endlessssss. We are the universe experiencing itself and that's all there is to it, and once you realize this you will see that everything around you is perfect just the way it is, there will be no more need to use classifications or definitions to builld up a false sense of what reallity is, because all you will have to do is look feel taste hear and smell. Enjoy your senses while you have them cause they're all we have to experience ourself with =D AHHHHHHHHHHH!!!! words suck!! The only thing words can express is other words, and yet so many people base thier reallitys on theroys and concepts and ideas which are all vocabablee based. It's no wonder people are so confused, and I'm probably just making it worse so I'll shut my mouth now and go.








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OfflineShroomph
member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 123
Last seen: 22 years, 8 months
Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: plague member]
    #389032 - 09/08/01 10:54 PM (23 years, 5 months ago)

I believe in God, Jesus, Christianity... the whole bit. I once referred to myself as a Christian, although now, I feel that I have "fallen from grace". I was brought up with the teaching of eternal salvation (once saved, always saved), but I just don't buy that. I've found that God's thick book of rules is a little hard for me to live by at this point in my life.
I realize, here at the Shroomery, my beliefs will probably be laughed at; I may even get flamed. I don't really care. What really saddens me are the anti-christian people; people that label christians as "upper/middle class, holier than thou pricks who would rather point their finger at somebody elses' wrong doings". Sadly enough, there are people like that. It really pisses me off when I'm surfing through the channels and I get to one of the Christian stations and it has this woman with like really BIG blonde hair, fake tits (and yeah, it's easy to tell), tight clothes, a facelift, and sitting in what looks like a chair made of solid gold. Let me set the record straight... that's not what Christianity is about and that's not how God tells his people to act. It's about humility and meekness; it's about belief and faith.
Back to my point, I believe in God; others do not and I have no problem with that. I may think your beliefs are incorrect, but I'm certainly not going to put you down for it. Give others the same respect.

Why, oh, why didn't I take the BLUE pill?
Join the fight against marijuana prohibition; join NORML


--------------------
Why, oh, why didn't I take the BLUE pill?
Join the fight against marijuana prohibition; join NORML

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OfflineMrKurtz
enthusiast
Registered: 08/04/01
Posts: 303
Last seen: 22 years, 10 months
Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: plague member]
    #389127 - 09/09/01 01:18 AM (23 years, 5 months ago)

well, if you look at how things evolved through time, they started as mindless single cell organisms, and slowly they became more and more intelligent. probably because intelligence always wins over physical prowess (thats why the dinosaurs died out). i think, we're here because we are better at surviving then anything else to date.

as for higher beings... i don't believe or disbelieve in them. if they are greater then me, i can't understand them, so whats the use in trying? can a dog understand what a human is? hell, can a human really understand what he is? everyone can believe what they want.. but it all adds up to nothing i guess.


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Offlinelucid_dreams
journeyman
Registered: 06/30/01
Posts: 65
Loc: the great plains
Last seen: 22 years, 11 months
Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: MrKurtz]
    #389524 - 09/09/01 03:50 PM (23 years, 5 months ago)

I know nothing of god, i can't bring myself to have faith
without proof. but i still feel the need to have faith in
something, so i put my faith in things i see are true. i
see that we all come from two creators not one, a mother
and a father. i see the earth fits the mother role
nicely,it nurtures our every need, and appears to be a
living being.and in turn the sun fits the father role,
giving his warming love,and wacthing over us. so i put
apply that to my every day life, i thank mother earth when
i eat and for any thing she supplies for me, and when im in
need, i pray to my father for guidence. i learn and use
alot of my tribes oldways(Dakota) . its hard thou, most
ways of my tribe are long gone replaced by christan beleifs



you only need what you take with you
>>>>>>>>>>>>MIND YOUR HEAD<<<<<<<<


--------------------

when injecting rust, sniff lunar dust
>>>>>>>>>>>>MIND YOUR HEAD<<<<<<<<<<<

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Offlinealuminum_can
addict
Registered: 05/18/01
Posts: 695
Loc: california, orange
Last seen: 22 years, 7 months
Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: plague member]
    #389525 - 09/09/01 03:50 PM (23 years, 5 months ago)

it all was a mistake!!! we are just people. the universe just fuckin happened. it is crazy. god and the universe are the same thing. it is just like a vocabulary word. god is just another way of putting it so we arent confused. i personnaly dont believe in that shit, it is just a waste of time. it is like when people see me rambling on about crazy acid trips i had. when i see some person talking about god, it makes me think that they are crazy and must have some probs if they need to make sure everyone believes in god. i am also starting to hate it when people talk shit on our society!!! our society is awsome, and we just dont know it. we have built up communities and other things that makes the human race better than others. we dont even know how much we rely on instincts. i dont like the fact that we are so intent on having money and becoming famouse though. were all famouse!!! if someone knows youre name then you are famouse. just because you dont see your little ugly face on the television everyday we freak out. there is this girl in one of my classes whos head i fuck with!!! it is the funniest shit!!! she always gets these good grades and she has started surfing since "it is the hardest sport to do and if i get good at it then other sports will be a little bit easier". it is like she thinks of reasons for things, but these truely are excuses. it doesnt seems like she even enjoys surfing. and she thinks shes all hot and shit!!! it is fun just to fuck with peoples heads that are all into the things that arent real, like pop music and television. it really makes my day.

so back to the god thing. i dont see how people can believe in this spirit. humans dont have spirits, they have brains!!! brains that we dont know how to use!!! this is the confusing part of life. you ever feel like youre doing something wright, but then again, it is so wrong? i hate that!!! we need to get over that.

one plus one plus one equals three


--------------------
the little kridders of nature; they dont know that thyre ugly!


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Offlinezetek
enthusiast

Registered: 04/28/01
Posts: 210
Loc: United States
Last seen: 22 years, 9 months
Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: Pynchon]
    #389601 - 09/09/01 05:35 PM (23 years, 5 months ago)

In reply to:

There is some evidence to suggest that evolution actually did occur this way -- I mean spontaneously, in steps, not as a long, drawn-out process...particularly in regards to complex organs...after all, of what concievable evolutionary value is half an eye? Half an ear? Random gen. mutations can't be responsible for these...not to say that there is some "end-product" the universe has in mind(teleology), rather that the universe is as scoobied as the rest of us, and she's trying out any and all designs that might work...she just has an awful lot of material to work with...

Does zetek read this forum? He/she could put this much better than I can...




Hi, Pynchon. Funny, I don't usually check out this forum at the Shroomery but since I've been busy posting on this subject area elsewhere on the WWW, I thought I'd take a peek in here. Have I posted something dealing with this previously in The Shroomery, or have you coincidentally been to the same sites I have recently, i.e. "educating Connie"?

NDK and yourself understand biological evolution but if anyone reading this thread wants to do some more specific posting on the topic of how organisms evolve, I'd be happy to discuss.

Cheers.




Edited by zetek on 09/09/01 06:39 PM.


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OfflineCACA
veteran
Registered: 07/12/01
Posts: 1,122
Last seen: 22 years, 9 months
Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: aluminum_can]
    #389617 - 09/09/01 05:56 PM (23 years, 5 months ago)

aluminum, you are nice and everything and helpful when you can be, but you never have anything solid to say. "I think my dick is a lollipop, because it is shaped like one."

:frown: I believe in Mr. Grieves !


--------------------
"I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." John 15:5

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