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Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: CACA]
    #393362 -

In reply to:

You won't "complicate" matters? Its all you want to do. Science is the one that has brought complication. Why were you not aware of this?


You make no sense here. How does science complicate? It explains by breaking wholes into simpler parts.




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Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: zetek]
    #393365 -

Tell me what is more complicated, a stick or a nuclear bomb? We do have the responsibility in having the ability for such science to ourselves to do what we will after careful consideration only.

:frown: I believe in Mr. Grieves !


--------------------
"I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." John 15:5

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Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: CACA]
    #393368 -

In reply to:

If you want to be a robot, then you can say that Occam's Razor is going to run your life. You can make many "assumptions", but if you make the one that matters most, it is the only thing that matters. If you have no soul, Occam's Razor works with the argument. I didn't say that you brough it up. I brought up the fact that the evolution excuse for putting off God is now useless and that is a model for the rest of "breakthroughs". If you have no conscience, you can call believing in God an assumption, but to a person who is ready to accept the truth, it is not. You are only serving what your brain wants, which is very impressionable in this day. What about the rest of you? You have other parts to you. That's like saying that a person doesn't want to live just to live and instead living for their number 2, their quality of existence - i.e. pleasures. We are not cats. We are, however, humans.



You've lost me here... I choose to make decisions using logic and reason, if that in anyway replies to the above ramblings.




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Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: zetek]
    #393371 -

How can you ever say that science has not complicated things? This level of science, it was inevitable. Science has helped us stay alive longer, but we now understand genetic code. Is it easier and more healthy to accept death or do we keep trying to keep ourselves alive ? What is suicide? What is wrong? Ends justify means when? It is about not being selfish.

:frown: I believe in Mr. Grieves !


--------------------
"I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." John 15:5

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Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: gaastra]
    #393372 -

In reply to:

Humans are self-conscious, but apes are not,



At first read I'd have to disagree with this. Please elaborate on what you mean by "self-conscious." Self-aware?


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Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: zetek]
    #393376 -

lol sorry. When I was talking about when I said that I didn't bring it up was in reference to the Darwin thing. rambling?

:frown: I believe in Mr. Grieves !


--------------------
"I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." John 15:5

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Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: CACA]
    #393384 -

I prefer to make a distinction between something being "complicated" and something being "complex" which you seem to be referring to. Something is complicated if it is hard to understand. Science makes things easier to understand by giving us knowledge that we didn't previously have. DNA was complicated (hard to understand or explain) before Watson & Crick described it. So I see the process of science as a way of un-complicating things.


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Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: zetek]
    #393394 -

You are right. What I meant was complex. Sorry. But, how to you understand these things in the first place? You look complication in the eyes and get down to it. Everytime I think of science, I picture a young boy who always goes straight to the middle of his Twinkie, to get to the cream or a young one who broke his new remote-controlled car to get the magnet out. The problem with science is that when it wants to be, it is completely superficial. If it ever wanted to explain something, it would. If the user does not want to, science doesn't have to. I mean, I knew you were going to say that science uncomplicates things... okay. Osama Bin Laden is known to have many cells that operate knowing not enough of the big picture to comprimise any operation. With all of our science, the computer popped out of the womb. Now, it is harder than ever to stop these people. Through the ages, things have been able to be done, but the level of diffuculty has gone up. Whether someone is up to the task or not is not the question. The question is what is making things harder and harder? Now there are psychiatrists to help us with this stress. We have backups for our backups. Science definitely complicates life. It isn't the only thing science does to life, it does do nice things like provide us with air conditioning.... but when you are barreling down the road in the sitting position in a chunk of metal and it makes sense, because you have to drive to get to the place you need to get to because the place you live in is so large that walking is not a realistic option, don't you think that things are a little more complicated? How can you argue this point at all ? Have you ever seen the Andy Griffith Show?? (I know that it came in on a television, but just look at what life it was trying to depict.) Just ... compare. Compare life then and now and even twenty years before that. Who cares about ignorance?

:frown: I believe in Mr. Grieves !

Edited by CACA on 09/14/01 02:30 AM.



--------------------
"I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." John 15:5

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Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: zetek]
    #393844 -

By being self conscious, we know we exist, and we question our existence.

I don't know for sure, but Apes act much on instinct and don't question thier existernce

I think thats what I mean



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Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: pyromaniac]
    #394000 -

all it'll do is give you tunnel-vision. Evolution theory is just one subroutine in an algorithm design of a problem to be solved (if possible)

Algorithmic (Self-)Realization Structure is way of architeching insights, usable knowledge, and personal/spiritual cultivation. ASRS is like desigining a program with subrountines linked to the problem/goal.


For Twilight


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Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: gaastra]
    #394040 -

Abundant experimental and observational data have demonstrated that apes are self-aware.


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Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: gaastra]
    #394083 -

"apes are not self conscious..."
who told you that???

old enough to know better
not old enough to care


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care

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Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: gaastra]
    #394090 -

gaastra --

Remember also that its not really accurate to say that "man came from the apes", as you imply. We share a common ancestor with modern apes. As for the "precise moment" of conciousness -- there are no precise moments in evolution...well, maybe one -- life from non-life? Maybe not even then if you subscribe to the "proteins-first" school...anyway...

CACA --

Don't confuse science with technology. Einstein wasn't thinking about nuclear weapons when he developed relativity...tho he did mention that, had he known what people would make of his discoveries, he would have become a watchmaker. Sure, technology can complicate our lives (recall whoever it was that said a labour-saving device had yet to be invented) but science seeks to "reduce"...which is exactly the problem many christians have with it..."We hope to explain the entire universe in a single, simple formula that you can wear on your t-shirt." -- attributed to Leon Lederman.

What interests me is why you're both so sure that evolution is incompatible with faith?




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Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: gnrm23]
    #394091 -

anyway... a bit of a drift from the necessity of god to the creationist/evolutionist controversy...
the desire to explain god by observing the complexity of the physical world (the so-called "argument from design") is an old one... deemed insufficient by modern philosophers, but still holding great popular appeal...
and a smart-cookie scientist like dr shulgin does not accept conventional interpretation of red-shift as indicative of a 16 billion year-ago "big bang"... but...
"fiat lux" --- let there be light... most likely something happened... and in this "local universe" energy and matter and time appeared... and eventually in our little corner of the local galaxy ("the milky way") our sun lit up to shine on planets developing... and on the one(s) where water could be liquid, soon after "life" appeared... ane, eventually, death as well... and a growing ability to sense "self" and "other" also started to appear... and some of the entities cultivated the ability to remember, and to plan, and to communicate, and to ponder... and here we are...
as to "god(s)" well, each must decide if that is an adequate explanation... but as to "spirit" well, each must experience...
buddha insisted that we take nothing on faith, except the possibility of "waking up" --- and yet we are given the pronouncement that "all sentient beings have buddha nature" ...
who is asking this question?
where did we come from?
what is next?
...
science tries to answer "how?"
religion tries to answer "why?"
...
here we are...
hello, goodbye...

old enough to know better
not old enough to care


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care

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Re: Why God MUST be real [Re: Pynchon]
    #394370 -

Science is the most important part in modern-day instructions/directions for technology; the use and construction of it. Why can't you just look back and see it???? Life was definitely easier before. Ask any old person. The more you try to have things your own way, the more problems you get. That one thing is connected to ever more problems, which to the person with that burning desire for information, might be very delicious. I have no problem with accepting the connections and the double-edged truths that signify the mirroring- not only the understandings or raw connections or self-implicating interests- of the two. Man tries to understand things his way and gets one answer for the simple answer that has already been given in some cases. These answers, once understood and edited by the whole of the scientific community, do not contradict existing answers or easier answers.

:frown: I believe in Mr. Grieves ! Also, everything in the above post is entirely fictional, like PC !


--------------------
"I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." John 15:5

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