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Invisiblemariasabina
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Registered: 10/10/01
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for anyone who wants to follow Jesus
    #611721 - 04/18/02 09:36 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

there have been plenty of discussions regarding christianity on this board. each post i've read, whether pro or con, holds legitimate opinions and i can understand where the person is coming from. yes it seems that the christian god is a narcissistic, sadistic egomaniac. many so called christians are hypocritical and judgemental. many things in the bible are confusing and even seem to contradict. as a christian, i am mocked for being a naive and stupid sheep, for believing in such dumb stories. yet i feel compelled to share the good news with anyone who will listen. there are things about the bible that i still don't understand, but it's ok. i don't need to question it because i have experienced enough to know that for me, it is the truth.

i would like this to be a positive thread for anyone who is sincerely interested in knowing Jesus. the past threads on christianity contain interesting perspectives, and i understand and respect each person's opinion. but like any argument based on spirituality, nothing can be proven, and all those threads just turn into the same arguments going back and forth and going nowhere. i kindly ask that this not be turned into one of those threads. if you must, please start your own thread. so then, this thread goes out to anyone who will dare to open the door to Jesus.

Heavenly Father, I thank you for the opportunity to share your love with anyone who is willing to hear. Lord, I ask you to break down any hearts hardened with pride and disbelief. In the name of Jesus Christ, I bind the spirits of darkness and disbelief which blind the minds of unbelievers from the light of the gospel. I bind and rebuke you, I command you to depart by the power of the Blood and the resurrection. Father, I ask that this thread will start someone, somewhere, on a path to the joy and peace you so graciously offer, for your glory. In Jesus' name, amen.

when i was little, i was a very sad child. It's a long story, but my parents didn't raise me until i was 5. right off the bat, my mother abused me verbally and physically, and i became suicidal. my mother was careful to hide the bruises, but the teachers knew something was wrong. one day a teacher told my mom that i should be checked to see if i was retarded, because all i did was stare off into space all day. years went by and the abuse continued. one day when i was 11, i had come to the end of my rope. i was alone in the house and walking around aimlessly like a trapped rat. i collapsed to the floor and begged God to kill me. A few weeks later, my mom found out she was pregnant. after my brother was born, she stopped hitting me. eventually, the verbal abuse stopped as well. through my brother, my mom learned what it was to raise and love a child. i knew this was God's answer to my prayer.

fast forward to college... as expected of such a messed up childhood, i had major issues. one night i was sobbing, overcome by grief and rage. i was reminded of the things my mother did to me, and i asked God "how can i forgive her for those things? look at how damaged i am, she has no idea what she did to me" no idea what she did to me... Jesus said on the cross, "forgive them, for they know not what they do". he was dying on the cross out of love for them, and they were killing him. suddenly it didn't seem so hard to forgive my mother. after this revelation, i opened the bible and my eyes landed on a passage that spoke of how things hidden in darkness will be exposed and brought to light. this was another issue i was very upset about, and it comforted me to know that one day, my mom would have to stand accountable before God for what she did. the final major issue i was upset about was that i felt hopeless, like my life was destined to be painful and i might as well kill myself. i flipped the pages and was in the book of Daniel. this is the name of my brother, and it seemed that God was saying that the birth of my brother was only the first step to a better future, and there was hope for me. the 3 things that were weighing most heavily on me that night: forgiveness, justice, hope, addressed to me in that order.  playing "flip the pages and read the first thing you see" is hardly any way to communicate with God... but God does indeed work in strange ways sometimes. i'll never forget my encounter with God that night.

i began to learn about spiritual warfare. i learned that i had authority in Christ to rebuke demons, and call down angels. this is the point at which i began to experience God as part of my practical, daily life, and not just a belief system. anyways... when i was 17, i started getting migraines. i'm not saying that all diseases are caused by demons, but there are certain diseases, especially hereditary, that are demonic in origin. my migraines only occurred about once every few months, but they were so bad that no meds worked. they would start by me going completely blind for about 1 minute, then as my vision returned i'd get the pounding headache, nausea, sweats, etc. it was horrible. after learning about spiritual warfare, i tried to rebuke the migraines. i couldn't believe it when it worked! it took about 20 minutes. the next time, it took even less time. it came to a point where now i have been headache free for almost 2 years.

another time, my college roomate confided to me that she was having satanic dreams every night for nearly a month, and was afraid to go to sleep. i told her to pray and that i would pray for her too. i prayed asking God to give her a pleasant night's sleep, and asked for guardian angels to stand guard at each post of her bed until morning. i bound the spirits that had been giving her nightmares. i had complete faith that God would answer my prayer, and could almost envision the angels standing at her bed. the next day, i asked my roomate if she had slept ok. her eyes opened wide in surprise. she had forgotten to pray, but nonetheless, God was faithful to my prayer for her. She then started going to church with me.

an awesome gift to all believers is the Holy Spirit, who is God, who dwells inside of us. the bible says that the Holy Spirit prays for us and makes intercession for us. i had a very strange brush with the supernatural on new year's eve a couple of years back. i had a dream in which i died (the dream itself holds meaning, but is too long for me to go into) and suddenly i was awakened by something hitting against the side of my bed. at first i thought maybe my leg was twitching or something, causing the bed to move... but i realized that something angry was definitely ramming itself repeatedly into the side of the bed, buckling the mattress and making the whole bed shake. for some reason, i felt absolutely no fear at all. i should mention here also that i awoke mid-sentence. i realized that i (or rather, the Holy Spirit) was saying "in the name of Jesus Christ I command you to depart" and it immediately went away. the bible says "He who watches over you does not slumber"... indeed, even as i was sleeping, the Holy Spirit in me was protecting me.

i could go on forever, but these are only a few examples of why i believe what i do. and of these examples, there is so much more detail that i haven't gone into. but hopefullly it was enough for some of you to want to experience it. getting to know Christ is truly exhilirating... there are no words to describe it. without going into detail, here are the basic steps to letting Jesus into your life. first, realize that God is holy, and people are not, and we need to be cleansed of all sin to be holy and dwell with God forever. God sent his son Jesus Christ to be the ultimate sacrifice to pay for all sins. it is a free gift of love. if you believe this and want to accept Jesus, simply pray this prayer:

Dear God, I know that I am a sinner, but you loved me enough to send your son Jesus to die for me. I accept this gift. Jesus please come into my heart and lead my life. Help me to experience you in my life so that I will have no doubt that you are the true and living God. Thank you. In Jesus' name I pray, amen".

simple as that. you may not feel much differently now, but if you meant that prayer, have peace in knowing that you have secured your eternal destiny forever. feel free to PM me about anything :smile: 


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Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot. - Niel Gaiman


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: for anyone who wants to follow Jesus [Re: mariasabina]
    #611759 - 04/18/02 10:40 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Murder is evil.
Evil is sin.
Sin is forgiven.
So do it again.

Gotta love the way these things work...


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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Invisibleraytrace
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Registered: 01/15/02
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Re: for anyone who wants to follow Jesus [Re: mariasabina]
    #611776 - 04/18/02 11:02 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

regardless of the existence of God(s) and how do they look like, and beyond any religions, i believe in prayer.

it costs you nothing and sometimes it's all that you have.


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OfflineWarped_Ventricle
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Re: for anyone who wants to follow Jesus [Re: raytrace]
    #611790 - 04/18/02 11:38 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I am all for what Jesus taught. I don't know wheather he was a physical being or not, but he still exists as a spiritual being in my mind. I think it is important for someone to go about their life with love and other things that Jesus taught. Most of what I have read about christianity has been off of sites like bluhoney and deoxy.


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OfflineLOBO
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Re: for anyone who wants to follow Jesus [Re: mariasabina]
    #611803 - 04/18/02 12:10 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I am all for Jesus, he was one of the grate masters of humanity, (not a God), he came to teach us Universal love and compassion, and other grate teachings, but most Christians don't fallow Jesus teachings, they have change the meaning of his teachings for there own convenience.
For example: People quote Jesus saying, "I am the path bla, bla"
But what he said is "The I am is the path, bla, bla, bla"
Which is totally different.
And for what is even worse are the fanatic bible students that hang on more to the Old Testament, which contradict Jesus essential teachings.
But People don't wana think for them self's they want rules, rules are easier to fallow even if they are crazy, but to think and comprehend involves effort


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Anonymous

Re: for anyone who wants to follow Jesus [Re: mariasabina]
    #611808 - 04/18/02 12:25 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I don't know if this has any significance, but when I was younger I had a series of dreams in which demons were trying to 'recruit' me. They used practically every technique possible, from phone calls of "Do you want to know the devil?" to attacks on my logic. I am grateful that I was raised in a spiritual household, or else I'm not sure I would have been able to fend off their attacks the way that I did. When these things began spilling over from my dreams into reality.. and their constant bombardment didn't stop, I began using the words of Jesus whenever they were trying their tricks. That ALWAYS made them dissapear.

I have no problem with Christianity, it is a solid religion based on good things. There are a lot of really decent Christians. I think somewhere along the line though, I picked up too many bad vibes from shall we say... "Fake Christians".. who were only trying to force their religion down your throat... "Their religion is the only true one, and any other path is the path to hell" mentality. That's initially why I turned my back on the religion, that's not to say I don't believe in God, Jesus, and some of the stories of the Bible, but I wanted a religion where people can believe in those things and still remain humble and not force their belief on others. I think what you are doing here is a good thing, you are being honest and not trying to force this down anyone's throat. A lot of Christians would be wise to follow your example. This is the true nature of Christianity.


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InvisibleLallafa
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Re: for anyone who wants to follow Jesus [Re: ]
    #611816 - 04/18/02 12:41 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

"Fake Christians".. who were only trying to force their religion down your throat... "Their religion is the only true one, and any other path is the path to hell" mentality.


those arent fake christians
thats exactly what it says in the bible

if you really believed that jesus is the only way to not burn in hell (which it does clearly state in the WORD), you would be trying to force your beliefs on others too

silly christians..


--------------------
my tax dollars going to more hits of acid for charles manson


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Anonymous

Re: for anyone who wants to follow Jesus [Re: Lallafa]
    #611821 - 04/18/02 12:48 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I like to think of it as Jesus is a level of consciousness that must be reached in order to become enlightened. As well as a man that existed to show everyone that it was possible. People take the Bible way too literally. Not to mention it has been changed so many times, it doesn't even resemble its original form. Where a lot of Christians go wrong, is in thinking that their religion is the only true one. Yeah, it does say this in the Bible... and like I said the Bible has been changed, words have been added, things have been taken away.. so they can have more control over their religion.


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OfflineTannis
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Re: for anyone who wants to follow Jesus [Re: mariasabina]
    #611991 - 04/18/02 03:44 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

.........only believe............


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OfflineLOBO
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Re: for anyone who wants to follow Jesus [Re: ]
    #612023 - 04/18/02 04:54 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Just to correct you Christ is a level consciousness not Jesus, the same idea. :smile: he he.


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OfflineLOBO
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Re: for anyone who wants to follow Jesus [Re: Lallafa]
    #612024 - 04/18/02 04:55 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Were did Jesus said that? Tell me were?


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Invisiblemariasabina
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Re: for anyone who wants to follow Jesus [Re: LOBO]
    #612027 - 04/18/02 04:56 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

>>But People don't wana think for them self's they want rules, rules are easier to fallow even if they are crazy, but to think and comprehend involves effort<<

isn't that the truth. there are so many people who don't even know why they believe what they believe. i guess it's just not very important to them.


shroomism thanks for sharing your experiences with demons... it's not that uncommon for people to experience things like this, however most people don't disclose it, fearing that they will be thought of as crazy or strange


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Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot. - Niel Gaiman


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Offlinenugsarenice
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Re: for anyone who wants to follow Jesus [Re: mariasabina]
    #612233 - 04/18/02 09:03 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I remember years ago, I had a dream where someone or something took me from a place I don't know, and flew me over thousands of people, and then the spirit communicated to me, that I should save these people. After I woke up I had a premonition so to say, where someone told me to write in my bible. I ended up writing a 5 sentence paragraph, with various parts that made sense, and other's I still don't understand. These word were to serve me to save the people, but I still don't understand how. The writings are not with me, otherwise I would post them, two sentences I shared here before were "All people are inherintly good" and "Meaings don't lie" They make sense to me, when I look again at my writings maybe I will understand more.

That same passage you wrote about accepting Jesus into your heart, a preacher told me before, but it sounded different. I have read very little of the bible, however I respect the short section of the Proverbs very much.


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Anonymous

Re: for anyone who wants to follow Jesus [Re: mariasabina]
    #612241 - 04/18/02 09:22 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

however most people don't disclose it, fearing that they will be thought of as crazy or strange

around here we all know that Shroomism is crazy, so he really has nothing to lose...



(j/k shroomism)


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OfflineStrangeDays
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Re: for anyone who wants to follow Jesus [Re: mariasabina]
    #612311 - 04/18/02 10:25 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Maria,

I've been asking God alot lately about how to improve my relationship with Him.. I have heard his reply in your post, Thankyou.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: for anyone who wants to follow Jesus [Re: mariasabina]
    #612348 - 04/18/02 10:59 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Thank you for your testimony. I realize that such things are often not well-received. The language of prayer and thanksgiving, sinfulness and healing, grate the average ego for many reasons. Many have had Christianity imparted by adults who are very lacking in understanding, but big on superstition, tradition and control. Essentially, we all have to change, no matter what level we're at, and change doesn't happen without humility, which is ego-death in small amounts. In this forum, ego-death via entheogens can sometimes (with grace) result in ego-transcendence. For a Westerner, this frequently takes the form of what 'BE HERE NOW' calls "Unbearable Compassion," and which I have come to understand by the Greek word for the 'enlightened' mind - or more properly - "Annointed" - which is Christ.

Raised in a Reformed Jewish home, by parents who practiced an essentially socio-cultural Judaism, with no spirituality, I became a Christian at the age of 21. Marginal Jews or not, this is a radical thing to do, and it followed 4 years of experimentation that ran something like this: Materialist>Satanist>Ceremonial Magician>[then LSD entered the picture]>Zen Buddhism>Hatha Yoga>Raja Yoga>Tibetan Buddhist Yoga>Christianity. It was the similarity between the meditations of Tibetan Buddhists and the Greek Orthodox Hesychast monks on Mt. Athos, Greece that allowed me to 'intellectually' bridge the gap between Buddhism and Christianity. The emotional change was different.

Having changed my major from bio-medical studies to philosophy, after a few solid acid trips, and graduating after 4 ecstatic years back into the world wherein I held a B.A. degree and worked as a janitor, a factory worker and then a truck driver, life brought me to my knees in despair. In that state of mind, confident meditation was impossible, but a reaching out to a Reality in pain and despair and tears - asking, God-knows-Who (God indeed) for help...things began to change.

I pulled myself together while once again living with Mom and Dad (which wasn't easy after 4 years of sex, drugs and Grateful Dead); got baptized in a Catholic Church (long story), and entered a Methodist seminary for 2 years. Most of what I came away with was learned on my own, but Drew University's seminary was the place where I did it. There, I met a Benedictine and a Cistercian monk, and while at first I contemplated becoming celibate for life (I'd practiced for a year or more at a time), I later learned that these monks, and many other Catholic 'celibates'I met were in fact gay, and living among men, w/o women was no sacrifice at all. I abandoned the path of celibacy [Whew!]

My current teacher on Biblical studies is the former Archbishop John Shelby Spong, whose books 'Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism,' and 'Liberating the Gospels," I HIGHLY recommend for anyone who wants to understand the Bible and its contradictions in an adult manner. He belongs to the 'liberal' school of theologians who recognize the importance of understanding the Hebrew notion of 'Midrash' - the use of story-telling to impart a spiritual truth. Literal, historical, 'reporter-on-the-scene' mentality did not belong to 1st century Hebrews. This is very late scientific mind set. There was no reporter taking notes in Bethlehem, or Nazareth, depending on the account. Nevertheless, the Bible is a vehicle of enlightening perspective.

The bottom line for me is that I learned a great deal from my studies and Faustian practices, as well as from other faiths, but, when push came to shove, I ended up reaching out to a living God who is at least personal, and certainly transpersonal, but definately not impersonal. The Godhead transcends the personal God-with-attributes, yet can and must be approached with "all of one's heart, all of one's soul and all of one's might." I do not belong to a 'cult of Jesus,' and my theology is still developing (when one realizes that Jesus or Paul never knew of trinitarian ideas, for one example, it's difficult to agree with most theology). That Christ is the true Gnosis, I do believe, and I believe because I have experienced for years what Paul said: "I live, yet not I, Christ liveth in me." Further, "He must increase while I must decrease," for those of you who wish to find the Biblical basis of 'ego-death' in the New Testament. There is much I could say, but I've said enough. I'll end with this about tripping. When a Christian trips, it's a Christian trip, and one discovers more of Who and What makes one a Christian to begin with.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineOpiumWeed
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Re: for anyone who wants to follow Jesus [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #612394 - 04/19/02 12:00 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Most people who believe in religion are weak minded, in that they have lost or never had the ability to think for them selfs, unable to analyze and rationalize there life and the world they live in.

Anyway I found this written by an ex-Preacher who does have the ability to think.

Bible Contradictions
PAUL SAID, "God is not the author of confusion," (I Corinthians 14:33), yet never has a book produced more confusion than the bible! There are hundreds of denominations and sects, all using the "inspired Scriptures" to prove their conflicting doctrines.
Why do trained theologians differ? Why do educated translators disagree over Greek and Hebrew meanings? Why all the confusion? Shouldn't a document that was "divinely inspired" by an omniscient and omnipotent deity be as clear as possible?

"If the trumpet give an uncertain sound," Paul wrote in I Corinthians 14:8, "who shall prepare himself to the battle? So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air." Exactly! Paul should have practiced what he preached. For almost two millennia, the bible has been producing a most "uncertain sound."

The problem is not with human limitations, as some claim. The problem is the bible itself. People who are free of theological bias notice that the bible contains hundreds of discrepancies. Should it surprise us when such a literary and moral mish-mash, taken seriously, causes so much discord? Here is a brief sampling of biblical contradictions.

Should we kill?
Exodus 20:13 "Thou shalt not kill."
Leviticus 24:17 "And he that killeth any man shall surely be put to death."
vs.


Exodus 32:27 "Thus sayeth the Lord God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, . . . and slay every man his brother, . . . companion, . . . neighbor."
I Samuel 6:19 " . . . and the people lamented because the Lord had smitten many of the people with a great slaughter."
I Samuel 15:2,3,7,8 "Thus saith the Lord . . . Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. . . . And Saul smote the Amalekites . . . and utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword."
Numbers 15:36 "And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses."
Hosea 13:16 "they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with children shall be ripped up."
For a discussion of the defense that the Commandments prohibit only murder, see "Murder, He Wrote", chapter 27 (Losing Faith In Faith: From Preacher To Atheist).

Should we tell lies?
Exodus 20:16 "Thou shalt not bear false witness."
Proverbs 12:22 "Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord."
vs.


I Kings 22:23 "The Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee."
II Thessalonians 2:11 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie."
Also, compare Joshua 2:4-6 with James 2:25.

Should we steal?
Exodus 20:15 "Thou shalt not steal."
Leviticus 19:13 "Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbor, neither rob him."
vs.


Exodus 3:22 "And ye shall spoil the Egyptians."
Exodus 12:35-36 "And they spoiled [plundered, NRSV] the Egyptians."
Luke 19:29-34 "[Jesus] sent two of his disciples, Saying, Go ye into the village . . . ye shall find a colt tied, whereon yet never man sat: loose him, and bring him hither. And if any man ask you, Why do ye loose him? thus shall ye say unto him, Because the Lord hath need of him. . . . And as they were loosing the colt, the owners thereof said unto them, Why loose ye the colt? And they said, The Lord hath need of him."
I was taught as a child that when you take something without asking for it, that is stealing.

Are we saved through works?
Ephesians 2:8,9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith . . . not of works."
Romans 3:20,28 "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight."
Galatians 2:16 "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ."
vs.


James 2:24 "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."
Matthew 19:16-21 "And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he [Jesus] said unto him . . . keep the commandments. . . . The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven."
The common defense here is that "we are saved by faith and works." But Paul said "not of works."

Should good works be seen?
Matthew 5:16 "Let your light so shine before men that they may see your good works."
I Peter 2:12 "Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that . . . they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation."
vs.


Matthew 6:1-4 "Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them . . . that thine alms may be in secret."
Matthew 23:3,5 "Do not ye after their [Pharisees'] works. . . . all their works they do for to be seen of men."
Should we own slaves?
Leviticus 25:45-46 "Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, . . . and they shall be your possession . . . they shall be your bondmen forever."
Genesis 9:25 "And he [Noah] said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren."
Exodus 21:2,7 "If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing. . . . And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the manservants do."
Joel 3:8 "And I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the children of Judah, and they shall sell them to the Sabeans, to a people far off: for the Lord hath spoken it."
Luke 12:47,48 [Jesus speaking] "And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes."
Colossians 3:22 "Servants, obey in all things your masters."
vs.


Isaiah 58:6 "Undo the heavy burdens . . . let the oppressed go free, . . . break every yoke."
Matthew 23:10 "Neither be ye called Masters: for one is your Master, even Christ."
Pro-slavery bible verses were cited by many churches in the South during the Civil War, and were used by some theologians in the Dutch Reformed Church to justify apartheid in South Africa. There are more pro-slavery verses than cited here.

Does God change his mind?
Malachi 3:6 "For I am the Lord; I change not."
Numbers 23:19 "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent."
Ezekiel 24:14 "I the Lord have spoken it: it shall come to pass, and I will do it; I will not go back, neither will I spare, neither will I repent."
James 1:17 " . . . the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning."
vs.


Exodus 32:14 "And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people."
Genesis 6:6,7 "And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth . . . And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth . . . for it repenteth me that I have made him."
Jonah 3:10 ". . . and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not."
See also II Kings 20:1-7, Numbers 16:20-35, Numbers 16:44-50.

See Genesis 18:23-33, where Abraham gets God to change his mind about the minimum number of righteous people in Sodom required to avoid destruction, bargaining down from fifty to ten. (An omniscient God must have known that he was playing with Abraham's hopes for mercy--he destroyed the city anyway.)

Are we punished for our parents' sins?
Exodus 20:5 "For I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation." (Repeated in Deuteronomy 5:9)
Exodus 34:6-7 " . . . The Lord God, merciful and gracious, . . . that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation."
I Corinthians 15:22 "For as in Adam all die, . . ."
vs.


Ezekiel 18:20 "The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father."
Deuteronomy 24:16 "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin."
Is God good or evil?
Psalm 145:9 "The Lord is good to all."
Deuteronomy 32:4 "a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he."
vs.


Isaiah 45:7 "I make peace and create evil. I the Lord do all these things." See "Out of Context" for more on Isaiah 45:7.
Lamentations 3:38 "Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?"
Jeremiah 18:11 "Thus saith the Lord; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you."
Ezekiel 20:25,26 "I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live. And I polluted them in their own gifts, in that they caused to pass through the fire all that openeth the womb, that I might make them desolate, to the end that they might know that I am the Lord."
Does God tempt people?
James 1:13 "Let no man say . . . I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man."
vs.


Genesis 22:1 "And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham."
Is God peaceable?
Romans 15:33 "The God of peace."
Isaiah 2:4 ". . . and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."
vs.


Exodus 15:3 "The Lord is a man of war."
Joel 3:9-10 "Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up: Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong."
Was Jesus peaceable?
John 14:27 "Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you."
Acts 10:36 "The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ."
Luke 2:14 " . . . on earth peace, good will toward men."
vs.


Matthew 10:34 "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household."
Luke 22:36 "Then said he unto them, . . . he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
Was Jesus trustworthy?
John 8:14 "Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true."
vs.


John 5:31 "If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true."
"Record" and "witness" in the above verses are the same Greek word (martyria).

Shall we call people names?
Matthew 5:22 "Whosoever shall say Thou fool, shall be in danger of hellfire." [Jesus speaking]
vs.


Matthew 23:17 "Ye fools and blind." [Jesus speaking]
Psalm 14:1 "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God."
Has anyone seen God?
John 1:18 "No man hath seen God at any time."
Exodus 33:20 "Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live."
John 6:46 "Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God [Jesus], he hath seen the Father."
I John 4:12 "No man hath seen God at any time."
vs.


Genesis 32:30 "For I have seen God face to face."
Exodus 33:11 "And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend."
Isaiah 6:1 "In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple."
Job 42:5 "I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee."
How many Gods are there?
Deuteronomy 6:4 "The Lord our God is one Lord."
vs.


Genesis 1:26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image."
Genesis 3:22 "And the Lord God said, Behold, the man has become as one of us, to know good and evil."
I John 5:7 "And there are three that bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."
It does no good to claim that "Let us" is the magisterial "we." Such usage implies inclusivity of all authorities under a king's leadership. Invoking the Trinity solves nothing because such an idea is more contradictory than the problem it attempts to solve.

Are we all sinners?
Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God."
Romans 3:10 "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one."
Psalm 14:3 "There is none that doeth good, no, not one."
vs.


Job 1:1 "There was a man . . . who name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright."
Genesis 7:1 "And the Lord said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation."
Luke 1:6 "And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless."
How old was Ahaziah?
II Kings 8:26 "Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign."
vs.


II Chronicles 22:2 "Forty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign."
Should we swear an oath?
Numbers 30:2 "If a man vow a vow unto the Lord, or swear an oath . . . he shall do according to all that proceedeth out of his mouth."
Genesis 21:22-24,31 " . . . swear unto me here by God that thou wilt not deal falsely with me . . . And Abraham said, I will swear. . . . Wherefore he called that place Beersheba ["well of the oath"]; because there they sware both of them."
Hebrews 6:13-17 "For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself . . . for men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife. Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath."
See also Genesis 22:15-19, Genesis 31:53, and Judges 11:30-39.

vs.


Matthew 5:34-37 "But I say unto you, swear not at all; neither by heaven . . . nor by the earth . . . . Neither shalt thou swear by thy head . . . . But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil."
James 5:12 ". . . swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation."
When was Jesus crucified?
Mark 15:25 "And it was the third hour, and they crucified him."
vs.


John 19:14-15 "And about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King! But they cried out . . . crucify him."
It is an ad hoc defense to claim that there are two methods of reckoning time here. It has never been shown that this is the case.





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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Registered: 12/10/99
Posts: 12,793
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Re: for anyone who wants to follow Jesus [Re: OpiumWeed]
    #612662 - 04/19/02 07:26 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

The canonical Bible is a cut-and-paste affair. Even with Genesis, there are 2 creation acounts, and the earlier version which speaks to the original androgenous nature of [Hu]man wholeness comes after the later version ("Fiat Lux!")

Why are there no 'empty tomb' narratives in Paul? Why does he write of the Resurrected Lord as Light and Word? Some of the writings attributed to Paul are considered authentic. There was no belief or acceptance in Paul's time of the Resurrection being a resusitation of the physical body as the much later Gospel authors portrayed in their own public relations to spread the Gospel. This is the language of mythology, and as one can easily read, the Easter events are different from Gospel to Gospel. Most of what every Christian holds in mind as image, or simply accepts and doesn't question is wrong. Tradition is not necessarily based on historicity. Literal acceptance was not intended by the authors, whoever they were. It was Jewish midrash.

In Islam, the same Koran, written down, not by Mohammed himself, but by followers, is the same translation. Many Muslims maintain that it must be read in the original Arabic. Rather than Mohammed, it is the Koran which is the 'Eternal Word of God,' 'written in Eternity.' Rather than a cult of personality (Jesus), there is a cult of 'the book.' Persons and writings may well serve as vehicles for the Divine, but worship of either amounts to idolatry. Jesus is my 'yardstick' for Compassion and human development, but I know that the title 'Son of God' was used throughout the Old Testament and means a King. Kings have always been attributed with Divine Right. Only those completely unfamiliar with Jewish writings see that kind of uniqueness in the New Testament. Check out Spong. One will understand the Bible better and still remain a believer.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineLOBO
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Registered: 03/19/01
Posts: 655
Loc: NY
Last seen: 10 years, 4 months
Re: for anyone who wants to follow Jesus [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #612677 - 04/19/02 07:59 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I believe if Jesus where looking down at us monkeys , and see what we have done to his teachings he must be puling out his beard !


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Invisiblewhiterasta
Day careobserver
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Registered: 04/09/02
Posts: 1,780
Loc: Oregon
Re: for anyone who wants to follow Jesus [Re: OpiumWeed]
    #612698 - 04/19/02 09:07 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

As what I refer to as a Christian Shaman I have found god in paradox more often than in linear reality.As the opposites of the tao circle so does the recursive logic in the bible,embrace the opposites as both sides of a greater truth and the contradictions of the bible become Zen koans.So many folks would point out the illogic of religeon,I put to you that life itself is a series of unlikely events,contradictions and impossibilities,as such NO book on spirituality should be without them.Bon Chance WR


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