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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Lets say free will doesn't exist [Re: teknix]
    #16556469 -

A wavefunction is not the same thing as a wave. It's a mathematical object that gives a probability amplitude for every point in space. Just like a sine function is not the same thing as the ~260Hz sine wave induced in the air by a guitar string tuned to middle-C.

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. :yesnod:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Lets say free will doesn't exist [Re: Diploid]
    #16556500 -

Yeah, replace it with wave function and you see what I meant.

:rolleyes:

I will coin my waveform to apply to the actual form of wave susceptible to collapse upon observation.

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Re: Lets say free will doesn't exist [Re: teknix]
    #16556525 -

/sigh

Wavefunctions are not waves. They're math. You're confused.

This is a wavefunction:



--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Lets say free will doesn't exist [Re: Diploid]
    #16556534 -

They are intended to describe the the actual phenomena of the waveform.

IE; The wave form is behind the wave function. That which is existing behind an observed particle.

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Re: Lets say free will doesn't exist [Re: teknix]
    #16556548 -

They are intended to describe the the actual phenomena of the waveform.

No. They describe probability amplitudes, not waves.

A wavefunction doesn't collapse into a particle any more than this:



collapses into a sine wave on a pond. You're being nonsensical.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Lets say free will doesn't exist [Re: Diploid]
    #16556598 -

No, because it wouldn't apply to a wave on a pond, because the function doesn't collapse. I specifically said that.

Look, remember how Sagan was saying that we wouldn't really be able to view a 4th dimensional object? The waveform is that 4th dimensional object. The particle is a part of that waveform that is observed.

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Re: Lets say free will doesn't exist [Re: teknix]
    #16556662 -


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Re: Lets say free will doesn't exist [Re: Diploid]
    #16556840 -

Ok, refer to quantum decoherence for a better explanation.

Quote:
Decoherence does not generate actual wave function collapse. It only provides an explanation for the appearance of the wavefunction collapse, as the quantum nature of the system "leaks" into the environment. That is, components of the wavefunction are decoupled from a coherent system, and acquire phases from their immediate surroundings. A total superposition of the global or universal wavefunction still exists (and remains coherent at the global level), but its ultimate fate remains an interpretational issue. Specifically, decoherence does not attempt to explain the measurement problem. Rather, decoherence provides an explanation for the transition of the system to a mixture of states that seem to correspond to those states observers perceive. Moreover, our observation tells us that this mixture looks like a proper quantum ensemble in a measurement situation, as we observe that measurements lead to the "realization" of precisely one state in the "ensemble".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_decoherence




"A total superposition of the global or universal wavefunction still exists (and remains coherent at the global level), but its ultimate fate remains an interpretational issue."

Can now be reduce to:

The waveform still exists (and remains coherent at the global level), but its ultimate fate remains an interpretational issue."




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Re: Lets say free will doesn't exist [Re: teknix]
    #16556896 -

It was my failure at articulating what I meant properly.

:banghead:

My apologies.

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Re: Lets say free will doesn't exist [Re: teknix]
    #16558734 -

teknix said:
Quote:
Martin Heisenberg, "Is Free Will an Illusion?", Nature, 459, (May 2009): 164-165

"Evidence of randomly generated action β€” action that is distinct from reaction because it does not depend upon external stimuli β€” can be found in unicellular organisms. Take the way the bacterium Escherichia coli moves. It has a flagellum that can rotate around its longitudinal axis in either direction: one way drives the bacterium forward, the other causes it to tumble at random so that it ends up facing in a new direction ready for the next phase of forward motion. This 'random walk' can be modulated by sensory receptors, enabling the bacterium to find food and the right temperature." - Martin Heisenberg






A flagellum is free will? :what:


--------------------
"It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and forget his own." - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"A room without books is like a body without a soul."  - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"Do not bite at the bait of pleasure, till you know there is no hook beneath it." -Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Lets say free will doesn't exist [Re: dustinthewind13]
    #16560180 -

Nah man, flagellum moves by a rotory engine.

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Re: Lets say free will doesn't exist [Re: teknix]
    #16563280 -

What was the point of that quote again?


--------------------
"It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and forget his own." - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"A room without books is like a body without a soul."  - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"Do not bite at the bait of pleasure, till you know there is no hook beneath it." -Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Lets say free will doesn't exist [Re: dustinthewind13]
    #16563378 -

Randomness.

I think Martin Heisenberg is arguing that the direction that the E. coli will be facing after "tumbling" is random and indicative of free-will. That direction the bacterium will be facing is indeterminate.

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


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