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Shop: Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Lets say free will doesn't exist [Re: teknix]
    #16549297 -

Quote:
Does "free" will not imply will?


It really depends on how you want to define the words and a simple implication doesn't create fact. Your logic is faulty if the intent is to show fact by appealing to choice. You would have to prove there is choice rather than just the appearance of it. Choices are narrowed down. This can either be done through reason or random selection. Random isn't really the kind of choice I envision when I consider free will as I like to feel as though I have some choice in the matter, though that's not to say the ability to make a random choice can't be useful. The choice of reason is deterministic. Coming to a reasonable conclusion I may feel some level of confidence in a choice. Will could simply be a word we use for human action, a perceived difference from something like the wind blowing, though there could be symbolic meaning in the will of mother nature. Is choice not assumed? What's to say there isn't only the appearance of choice? Feelings?

As I said, I can't come up with a non-relative definition of freedom. This also precludes a non-relative definition of free will. In lieu of that the most honest answer seems to be "I don't know", which to the mind extrapolates out to doubt and dis-belief. There's always the feelings to fall back on, but it doesn't win the argument.

Would the wise man say quit scrutinizing and be free? Or quit scrutinizing and use your illusion? Would a wise man lie to soothe the mind of his companion?


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

why there is reality and patterned, law-like consistency at all, rather than noise or non-reality is not a question physics answers. It's a question physics presupposes an answer to in order to provide other answers.

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Re: Lets say free will doesn't exist [Re: Rahz]
    #16549350 -

Yes, I already defined it as choosing or deciding, both used to describe will and free will. (I quoted the definitions another posted a while back)

Remember; choice = free will = will?

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Re: Lets say free will doesn't exist [Re: teknix]
    #16549419 -

I looked back several pages and was replying to what I found from your hand. You should bring the relevant info to the fore front. Either link me, or explain how choice = free will = will.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

why there is reality and patterned, law-like consistency at all, rather than noise or non-reality is not a question physics answers. It's a question physics presupposes an answer to in order to provide other answers.

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Re: Lets say free will doesn't exist [Re: Rahz]
    #16549450 -

teknix said:
Definition of WILL
transitive verb
: desire, wish <call it what you will>
verbal auxiliary
1
β€”used to express desire, choice, willingness, consent, or in negative constructions refusal.


Definition of FREE WILL
1
: voluntary choice or decision <I do this of my own free will>
2
: freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention


[url=http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/free will]Linky[/url]


teknix said:
Both will and free will are the same in choices / decisions.

Either there are choices or there are not, that is what it boils down too. You can change every time the word Will was used to Free Will and it will mean the same thing.


teknix said:
For me will implies free will.


teknix said:
No I don't mean that, I mean that "FREE" doesn't matter and can be reduced from the equation entirely, either will or not, "FREE" is irrelevant.

If there is will, it has to be free to decide or choose from decisions or choices, or there is not will, for that would only leave an illusion of will.


teknix said:
dustinthewind13 said:
Did I say will or free will, that is the question.


Will = Free will dude.

Quote:
Free will is the ability of agents to make choices free from certain kinds of constraints. The existence of free will and its exact nature and definition have long been debated in philosophy. Historically, the constraint of dominant concern has been the metaphysical constraint of determinism. The two main positions within that debate are metaphysical libertarianism, the claim that determinism is false and thus that free will exists (or is at least possible); and hard determinism, the claim that determinism is true and thus that free will does not exist.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will




This shows how free will could be possible even in a predetermined (deterministic) universe . . . .

teknix said:
There cannot be choice in a singular predetermined universe so the argument is invalid.

For a predetermined reality, there would have to exist multiple universes, so that every possible outcome has already happened, within the present moment.

Then if the above is the case, we would be choosing which universe prevails into the present course or chain of events, which would still be choosing which universe to observe. SO even predetermination would not be evidence against free will.



teknix said:
The logic is something like this.

If will then free will.
Will
------------------------
Therefore free will.

If will then free will
no free will
-----------------------
Therefore no will.

============================

If free will then will
free will
-------------------------
Therefore will


If free will then will
no will
-------------------------
therefore no free will.

==========================

Will = Free will.

Either there is a choice or there isn't a choice.

If there is any choice the universe is not predetermined.

If choice then will
no will
-------------------
Therefore no choice


If choice then will
Choice
-------------------
Therefore will

=========================

If will then choice
no choice
------------------
Therefore no will


If will then choice
Will
--------------------
Therefore choice

=======================

Will = freewill = choice.



Edited by teknix (07/18/12 02:55 PM)

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Re: Lets say free will doesn't exist [Re: Rahz]
    #16549452 -

Quote:
If will then free will.
Will
------------------------
Therefore free will.

If will then free will
no free will
-----------------------
Therefore no will.

============================

If free will then will
free will
-------------------------
Therefore will


If free will then will
no will
-------------------------
therefore no free will.

==========================

Will = Free will.

Either there is a choice or there isn't a choice.

If there is any choice the universe is not predetermined.

If choice then will
no will
-------------------
Therefore no choice


If choice then will
Choice
-------------------
Therefore will

=========================

If will then choice
no choice
------------------
Therefore no will


If will then choice
Will
--------------------
Therefore choice

=======================

Will = freewill = choice.


This is what you're referring to. There's too much for me to address it all, but I will say that it's filled with assumptions about the nature of the words you are using. For example, a lack of predetermination does not prove choice. It just makes choice ambiguous (which I did mention in my previous reply). You start with a hypothetical statement "If will then free will" and take it from there. You present a few options and suggest that one of them must be right. You also assume the meaning of the word will, evident by your rejection of the possibility that will is an illusion without providing any reason.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

why there is reality and patterned, law-like consistency at all, rather than noise or non-reality is not a question physics answers. It's a question physics presupposes an answer to in order to provide other answers.

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Re: Lets say free will doesn't exist [Re: Rahz]
    #16549474 -

No, it puts the definition out there and reduces the ambiguous redundancy of adding "free" which is irrelevant as far as this debate is concerned.

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Re: Lets say free will doesn't exist [Re: teknix]
    #16549538 -

Free will is defined as the ability to make choices that aren't determined by prior causes or divine intervention. This is bullshit because everything with the possible exception of quantum fluctuations is determined by prior causes.

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Re: Lets say free will doesn't exist [Re: Memories]
    #16549555 -

Ah, so you present a possibility and say that possibility is BS. (that is BS)

:tard:

I will give you a clue, impossible means there are no possibilities, which to say free will is impossible is to deny all possibilities of free will, so then it is up to you to disprove all possibilities.

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Re: Lets say free will doesn't exist [Re: teknix]
    #16549581 -

All you guys are really doing is accepting what feels right to you as truth, when in reality your feelings mean shit as far as science is concerned.

No one gives a shit how you feel about it.

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Re: Lets say free will doesn't exist [Re: teknix]
    #16549584 -

Is your brain his?


--------------------
As far as I assume to know...

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Re: Lets say free will doesn't exist [Re: liquidlounge]
    #16549589 -

Does a rooster lay an egg? You have no point.

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Re: Lets say free will doesn't exist [Re: teknix]
    #16549594 -

So you think quantum fluctuations give people free will? Even with quantum fluctuations, which i believe exist, you don't have free will. How would they allow you to have free will?

Quote:
I will give you a clue, impossible means there are no possibilities, which to say free will is impossible is to deny all possibilities of free will, so then it is up to you to disprove all possibilities.


It is impossible to disprove something. You can only attempt to provide evidence and arguments for something's existence. You can then discredit said evidence and arguments.

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Re: Lets say free will doesn't exist [Re: teknix]
    #16549597 -

teknix said:
Does a rooster lay an egg? You have no point.


According to you.


--------------------
As far as I assume to know...

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Re: Lets say free will doesn't exist [Re: Memories]
    #16549599 -

You do not understand do you? For free will to be Impossible (deny free will) it really has to be impossible. It can't just be unlikely, or not make sense to you.

No one here has disproven free-will.

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Re: Lets say free will doesn't exist [Re: teknix]
    #16549623 -

teknix said:
You do not understand do you? For free will to be Impossible (deny free will) it really has to be impossible. It can't just be unlikely, or not make sense to you.

No one here has disproven free-will.


You can't disprove anything. This is one of the most elementary principles of philosophy. :sorry:

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Re: Lets say free will doesn't exist [Re: Memories]
    #16549651 -

You can disprove things, you just don't prove them.

So you admit it is stupid to take the hard-determinism stance seriously and deny free-will.

:congrats:

Memories said:
teknix said:
You do not understand do you? For free will to be Impossible (deny free will) it really has to be impossible. It can't just be unlikely, or not make sense to you.

No one here has disproven free-will.


You can't disprove anything. This is one of the most elementary principles of philosophy. :sorry:


Please do show where you found this to be anything fundamental. What would be the point to philosophy if that was true.

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Re: Lets say free will doesn't exist [Re: liquidlounge]
    #16549663 -

liquidlounge said:
teknix said:
Does a rooster lay an egg? You have no point.


According to you.


Memories can see the point, everyone can see the point but you.


--------------------
As far as I assume to know...

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Re: Lets say free will doesn't exist [Re: liquidlounge]
    #16549668 -

liquidlounge said:
Is your brain his?


liquidlounge said:
liquidlounge said:
teknix said:
Does a rooster lay an egg? You have no point.


According to you.


Memories can see the point, everyone can see the point but you.


Your point only aids my point, that you do not know if another mind is acting of free-will or not.

Can you see how dumb that argument is? (It isn't an argument, you are agreeing with me and don't realize it)


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Re: Lets say free will doesn't exist [Re: teknix]
    #16549679 -

teknix said:
Your point only aids my point, that you do not know if another mind is acting of free-will or not.

Can you see how dumb that argument is?


That arguement is not even an arguement, cant you see it?


--------------------
As far as I assume to know...

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Re: Lets say free will doesn't exist [Re: liquidlounge]
    #16549694 -

:malebrain: :thumbup:


--------------------
As far as I assume to know...

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