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Enlightenment Cant be reached
    #1623708 -

Does anyone feel here no matter how many drugs you take or how many years you spend thinking and trying to work stuff out that enlightenment cant be reached while your alive. I think that during life stuff may be worked out but its only realy when your dead you can permantly change things and escape the physical existence or maybe we all have to wait for somesort of technological advancement/evolution to free us all.


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Fighting the man the best way I can.

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Re: Enlightenment Cant be reached [Re: EvilGir]
    #1623719 -

The more I think about it I find myself coming to the same conclusion... It makes sense though, doesn't it? All ego games and needs of the body dissolve in death.

I sometimes wonder if theres an ultimate truth you could come to that would make you die instantly;)

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Re: Enlightenment Cant be reached [Re: lateralus]
    #1623751 -

Quote:
I sometimes wonder if theres an ultimate truth you could come to that would make you die instantly;)



I think thats totaly possible I think the death could be somewhat bizzar though.
But look at terance Mckenna he died young think he was still in his 50s. The thing is did he discover something or was it just a coincedence who knows.
But I just feel like the only way out of this crazy world is either 2012 (not holding my breath though) or simply wait to die, hopefully in another 50-60 years. But I think you still need to prepare for death though, like what to think about when it happens.


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Fighting the man the best way I can.

Edited by jezu (06/10/03 01:39 PM)

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Re: Enlightenment Cant be reached [Re: EvilGir]
    #1623771 -

Inner peace can be reahced within old age. But weren't you enlightened the day you were born? Light, life. Same thing.


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Re: Enlightenment Cant be reached [Re: lateralus]
    #1623780 -

It was said that some Swami's years ago could instantly die right on the spot, they were said to have that much control over their bodies. Their senses and bodily functions could be switched off just like one would switch a TV off. Iam not sure of the creditability and forgot where i read it.

I personally think it is fully possible to reach so called "Enlightenment" in life; drugs themselves will not make one "awake" as the Buddha puts it. According to Buddhist belief, it says there are thousands of different ways to reach enlightenment(correct me if iam wrong on this).

Many people will feel its not possible, but then again this is not a easy task. Of the many Gurus, sages, Swamis and mystics out there only a handful of them that reach what is classified as true awakening; a achievement so large that they free themselves from the law of reincarnation and merge with the Cosmic forces.

Lastly Enlightenment is not the act of escaping one's body, its the union between your whole being; you realize that your body and mind are instruments and your soul is in fact the who you truly are. The purpose of Yoga practices (Yoga=Union)





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Aum Namah Sivaya

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Re: Enlightenment Cant be reached [Re: Cougheeman]
    #1623796 -

Companionship With The Holy

Don?t take a wooden sword into battle.
Go, find one of steel;
Then march forward with joy.

The saint?s protection is Truth?s sword:
Your time with him
Is worth as much as the cup of life itself.

All the wise have said the same:
The one who knows God
Is God?s mercy to his creatures?

Companionship with the holy makes you one of them.
Though you?re rock or marble, you?ll become a jewel
When you reach the man of heart.

Plant the love of the holy ones within your spirit;
Don?t give your heart to anything,
But the love of those whose hearts are glad.

Don?t go to the neighborhood of despair:
There is hope.
Don?t go in the direction of darkness:
Suns exist.
Mathnawi 1, 714-717, 721-724



Find a teacher who is an integral being, a beacon who extends his light and virtue with equal ease to those who appreciate him and those who don't. Shape yourself in his mold, bathe in his nourishing radiance, and reflect it out to the rest of the world.


Nothing kills the ego but the shadow of the shaykh(spiritual master): Cling tightly to the skirt of that ego-killer!
(The Sufi Path of Love: The Spiritual Teachings of Rumi, p. 193)


God does not speak to everyone, just as the kings of this world do not speak to every weaver. They appoint ministers and representatives so that through them people may find the way to them. In the same way God has singled out certain servants so that everyone who seeks Him may find Him within them. All the prophets have come for this reason. Only they are the Way.
(The Sufi Path of Love: The Spiritual Teachings of Rumi, p. 122)


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Please look within. Try. Try more.

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Re: Enlightenment Cant be reached [Re: questforall]
    #1624156 -

i think that, if you think drugs are going to bring "enlightenment" (whatever the fuck that is), you have some serious problems.


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enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.

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Re: Enlightenment Cant be reached [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1624178 -

I disagree.


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Re: Enlightenment Cant be reached [Re: EvilGir]
    #1624191 -

-deleted-

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Re: Enlightenment Cant be reached [Re: EvilGir]
    #1624248 -

i think enlightenment is a misconception. i dont think you should try so hard to find it but rather relax and be positvie and it will find you. ive seen alot of unhappy people try to "find" enlightenment and get depressed because they cant seem to grasp it. part of being enlightend is excepting faults and relizeing that no ones perfect so maybe being enlightend is realizing that no one can become fully enlightend because of basic human nature. well thats just my opinion anyway....i think you can definetly be enlighten by listening the to String Cheese Incident though.. :wink:

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Re: Enlightenment Cant be reached [Re: EvilGir]
    #1624326 -

Some shamans have said that the purpose of life is to become familiar with the after-death body so that we will be ready (for McKenna's transcendental object?) . I would highly recommend reading Gary Zukav's "Seat Of The Soul". (And for those McKenna naysayers: Michio Kaku's "Hyperspace", James Gleick's "Chaos: Making A New Science", and Edwin A. Abbott's "Flatland".

Brother... revere, seek, think, unthink, and find.



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++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Chart your own course... but only from here to there.

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Re: Enlightenment Cant be reached [Re: psilyhunter]
    #1624441 -

enlightenment is just a tool for religious control. monks claim to be enlightened so that communities give them economic support, its superiority needed to justify a spiritually elitest community's existance.

enlightenment is not magic, its very basic, this is enlightenment: a person understands their reality in way that makes them feel comfortable and happy, without needing anything external to make them feel this happiness.

its being cool with the universe, nothing more, enlightenment aint shit, westerns bastardize and romanticize eastern philosophy in order to justify and romanticize their own existance.


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enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.

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Re: Enlightenment Cant be reached [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1624494 -

Does anyone feel here no matter how many drugs you take or how many years you...

I think this post put it best...

Thats your first problem. Drugs cannot bring you to enlightenment.

Drugs are tools of development - paths unexplored by the vast majority of society. They twist your perception and can disolve feelings of self - some people call that enlightenment - Some people call that addiction. If being enlightened requires using a substance foreign to the brain as a crutch to the door, then I don't want enlightenment.


BTW-FULL enlightenment cannot be reached in a human body.

I love how people who have no experience in the field are self termed pro's at this kind of thing. It's like talking about computers with a Futureshop salesman..


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No one knows the worth of innocence till he knows it is gone forever, and that money can't buy it back. Not the saint, but the sinner that repenteth, is he to whom the full length and breadth, and height and depth, of life's meaning is revealed. Good and evil loose all objective meaning and are seen as equally necessary and contrasting elements in the masterpiece that is the universe.

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Re: Enlightenment Cant be reached [Re: nubious]
    #1624539 -

Quote:
  BTW-FULL enlightenment cannot be reached in a human body.

I love how people who have no experience in the field are self termed pro's at this kind of thing. It's like talking about computers with a Futureshop salesman..


LOL, I totally agree with you.  They just know.... :grin:

Enlightenment can mean so many things.  But basically it is just a term.  Like someone said earlier, it can mean you have just accepted your position in your reality.

But to think that you must do drugs to reach some sort of higher plain is laughable. 


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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine

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Re: Enlightenment Cant be reached [Re: psilyhunter]
    #1624570 -

Quote:
James Gleick's "Chaos: Making A New Science


OMG!! I have never met anyone who has read this book. An excellent read! I'm not sure if I'd call it enlightening but it definitely changed my entire perspective on this world. The prinicples in this book can be applied to any, i repeat, ANY facet of life.


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To be honest, I fear the OTD. ---TheMadConductor

Now I'm gonna have to start getting down on my knees and blowing mushrooms... ---RogerRabbit

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Re: Enlightenment Cant be reached [Re: debianlinux]
    #1624587 -

Quote:
I'm not sure if I'd call it enlightening but it definitely changed my entire perspective on this world.



That's funny. That is exactly what I would call enlightening.


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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine

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Re: Enlightenment Cant be reached [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #1624640 -

ahh, but if the principles fail to be applicable then it was false enlightenment. enlightenment imparts knowledge and knowledge involves experience. reading a book can give you the opportunity to choose a new or modified belief structure but only the test of time can determine enlightenment. IMO there is no such thing as instantaneous enlightenment outside of personal experience. one could say that the first time your tripping and come to the conclusion that you are the only existing entity and all other persons/objects/animals are merely a "figment of your imagination" is enlightenment. it may well be true but until one can verify such a "claim" i would hesitate to term it enlightening. it's a pretty ambigous term... enlightenment... it's really what you make it.


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To be honest, I fear the OTD. ---TheMadConductor

Now I'm gonna have to start getting down on my knees and blowing mushrooms... ---RogerRabbit

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Re: Enlightenment Cant be reached [Re: debianlinux]
    #1624675 -

yup, the ego posing as enlightenment... all part of a big cosmic joke...
"I feel the self drifting away...peace... serenity... love... nirvana.... a light...
a vision...it's... it's...it's...it's just me....damn fooled again..."


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"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."

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Re: Enlightenment Cant be reached [Re: debianlinux]
    #1624698 -

First off, I think 90% of the people on this thread are viewing enlightenment differently. Or maybe even more.


It depends what you term enlightenment.

Was it ram dass who said that words are like a bridge..and once you experience the concept that the word brought you to, you should get rid of the bridge?

WHat he meant was that words can throw us off so easily. We NEED words to express concepts to each other, but words dont do justice.


So when talking about enlightnement, we all are probably talking about different things.



I have experience enlightenment - the enlightenment i believe in, anyway.

In my belief, enlightenment is not necessarily, and even USUALLY not permanment. Anyone can have an enlightening experience. For it to last, that is the challenge.

EVERY human being is enlightened underneath their Ego, Perception, Perspective, Thoughts, Mental Blocks, and Ignornace. Enlightenment CAN be reached through psychedelics, but it CANNOT last from pscyehdelics.

IT can be reached from numerous things, yoga, meditation, psychedelics, etc.


I believe we are all born enlightened.

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Re: Enlightenment Cant be reached [Re: lucid]
    #1624710 -

I've got to agree that you can't reach enlightenment with drugs -- at least, not drugs alone. I think, however, that it is possible to reach enlightenment -- whatever that is, really -- with experience, and thought; drugs are certainly an experience.



--------------------
"Do we want the stars? We can have them. Can we borrow cups of fire from the sun? We can and must and light the world." --"On the Shoulders of Giants", Ray Bradbury

All of my posts are full of fiction and blatant lies.

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Re: Enlightenment Cant be reached [Re: tekramrepus]
    #1624721 -

ok, allow me to define my "personal" enlightment...it's when all concerns about the self cease... when all desires are gone (not repressed but simply gone - dissapeared), when all suffering is gone, when all pain is gone, and all that is left is awe, bliss, scared amazement at every single thing that one can percieve... an overwhelming "suchness" of things...when u look at the most ordinary thing and your jaw drops open because u are stunned at it's presence and magnificence... when u feel overwhelmed by joy and extacy... dizzy and intoxicated with the sheer delight of being here, in this moment, aware... eternally grateful to have glimpsed the sacred... a state of the universe...to have been a part of it and to have embraced it......... to have dissolved in love......


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"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."

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Re: Enlightenment Cant be reached [Re: tekramrepus]
    #1624729 -

Enlightenment...
is not a commodity.
is not a place.
is not even a noun.

It is therefore not attainable and you can never get "there".
If you think it is something that you can put on your cosmic resume, you have it all wrong.
If you think there is only one path, you have it all wrong.
If you give a shit about whether or not one is enlightened, you have it all wrong.

But hey... that's merely my two cents... and I'm just an asshole "skeptic".


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: Enlightenment Cant be reached [Re: Sev]
    #1624776 -

so one component of enlightenment is knowing how long it's going to last?

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Re: What's the meaning of life? [Re: Sev]
    #1624784 -


It's a test of our ability to resolve conflict.
Those of us who can resolve conflict inclusively can go on to greater power, and those of us who's serenity depends on exclusive tactics can not be trusted with greater power.

Perhaps this is the dumping ground for souls who transgress the Law and depend exclusive resolution...Look around...Ain't it so?
It's the single common trait of humanity

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Re: What's the meaning of life? [Re: castaway]
    #1624814 -

for me, enlightenment would be a permenant change of perception. A complete
tranformation of the self. There would be no "going back" that would make no sense.


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"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."

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Re: Enlightenment Cant be reached [Re: EvilGir]
    #1624840 -

define enlightenment, please


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if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?

this is the purpose

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Re: Enlightenment Cant be reached [Re: CleverName]
    #1624846 -

I did, up above in the thread...or at least I tried to...


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"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."

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Re: Enlightenment Cant be reached [Re: Sclorch]
    #1624852 -

i agree with sclorch. the experiences in my life that i deem enlightening have simply been moments of self-realisation followed with a sincere resolve to apply my newfound (not necessarily, more later) "discovery" to my future actions/interactions/thought patterns.

many times I am guilty, as i am sure many are, of having a self-realisation yet failing to make a steadfast effort towards self-progression. it is a form of denial. a type of procrastination that generally results in a "re-discovery" of the same damn lesson. IME failing to make a positive change based on self-discovery leaves one in a stupid loop where they will come to terms with their "deficiency" repeatedly until a postive change is made and then one will simply move to a new discovery where they have the choice of making further positive change or remaining in denial

the argument i presented earlier was that sometimes a discovery may seem "enlightening" but when the principles are applied they fall short or fail dismally. a gross example is the Atkin's diet (0 carbs and practically unregulated fats and proteins for those in the dark). On the surface the concept appears enlightening. A new methodology for weight control. At first it seems to work but in the end it proves futile to intentionally cut a significant part of your diet out completely. While you may lose weight you have effectively put yourself in a state of denial. A denial of the fact that there is no suitable replacement for a properly regulated COMPLETE diet coupled with the equivalent amount of physical exertion.

one who claims to be completely enlightened has simply withdrawn themselves from society in some form. monks for example. of course they have reached some level of ultimate enlightenment because they have a very limited interaction with the world around them and can focus on minute discrepancies. enlightenment is a life-long journey that is unique to every individual and can only be attained by personal experience and endeavor.

I can see that many of my above statements appear as though i think i'm stating some sort of fact. i can only relate my own point of view on what enlightement is to me.

BTW, i don't give a rat's ass if I can call myself enlightened but I do strive to integrate concepts i find particularly interesting or beneficial into my own stream of conciousness.


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To be honest, I fear the OTD. ---TheMadConductor

Now I'm gonna have to start getting down on my knees and blowing mushrooms... ---RogerRabbit

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Re: What's the meaning of life? [Re: lucid]
    #1624862 -

Ok, just a little disertation here. Drug use is forced conciousness expansion, not enlightenment. Enlightenment is a purely mental thing, like figuring something out. Conciousness expansion is the basis for Nirvana and Zen. This goal is achieved through many years of training in meditation. I know Practicers of the Wiccan religion that achieve tripping visuals and mindsets through extensive meditation practices. The reason drug users (like us) don't have the control in the spiritual world that they do is because we've forced ourselves there. Like in the Matrix, when they dowload Judo and Karate, they may know how to do it, but their bodies haven't had the years of toning and training allowing them to do so. Those monks spend years learning how to manuver in the spiritual world, we a bag of shroomies and get there in 2 hours. You really can't expect to reach true expansion like that.


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Nothing is idiot proof. Just need a real talented idiot.

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Re: Enlightenment Cant be reached [Re: EvilGir]
    #1624978 -

Its is said that budda himself, attanded enlightenment by meditating 49 days straight.


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And the gameshow host rings the buzzer (brrnnntt) oh and now you get a face full of face!

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Re: What's the meaning of life? [Re: BetMomIsProud]
    #1624983 -

to achieve enlightenment, one must not think and just be

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Re: Enlightenment Cant be reached [Re: EvilGir]
    #1625002 -

"Enlightenment," like any "goal," can always be stretched further.. This is nothing unusual to strive for the unobtainable.

Its like scientists trying to figure out what the smallest "thing" is, or the biggest "thing."


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

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Re: Tao [Re: ]
    #1625006 -

56. Mystical Unity

Those who know do not speak.
Those who speak do not know.
Close the mouth; shut the doors.
Smooth the sharpness; untie the tangles.
Dim the glare; calm the turmoil.
This is mystical unity.
Those achieving it are detached from friends and enemies,
from benefit and harm, from honor and disgrace.
Therefore they are the most valuable people in the world.

(bear in mind that this was written for a highly restrictive society where submissiveness was considered a virtue)





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Re: Enlightenment Cant be reached [Re: nubious]
    #1625068 -

-deleted-

Edited by paradis (06/10/03 10:20 PM)

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Re: Enlightenment Cant be reached [Re: ]
    #1625177 -

Enlightenment in my belief is NOT a permanment transformation.

Enlightenment is simply an awakening that allows you to see things the way they are. To see things, not necessarily in their TRUEST Form, for that cannot be seen. Instead, enlightenment is percieving things EXACTLY as your senses receieve them. WIthout any inner conflict.

Consider this. We are already enlightened. Everyone on this planet. However - our enlightenment gets filtered through our Ego, Filtered through our Ignorance, Filtered through our fear, Filtered through our doubt, Filtered through our Mental Blocks.

After all the filtering - we rarely catch glimpses of true enlightenment, HOWEVER it was there the whole time!




So yes, technically enlightenment lasts forever, but its ALREADY there. It never left us. We were born with it, but now its hidden. Its being filtered by the things I mentioned.


One psychedelic trip may let enlightenment shine through, but your filters eventually return to normal. If you practice something everyday that will break these things, or practice several things - its POSSIBLE to retain your enlightened state for as long as you practice them.

Perphaps once you practice so much ,you no longer need to practice anymore - this is what I believe happened to buddha.

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Re: Enlightenment Cant be reached [Re: ]
    #1625183 -

Quote:
enlightenment:
n 1: education that results in understanding and the spread of knowledge


then i consider myself to be that

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Re: Enlightenment Cant be reached [Re: ]
    #1625283 -

"Its is said that budda himself, attanded enlightenment by meditating 49 days straight."

religious propaganda. buddhism is no different than chrisitianity in the sense that it contains an institution with a government and a heirarchy that depends on economic success in order to sustain its existance.

have you ever been to asia, anyone? do you know how elitest buddhist monks are?

go to asia, see all the enlightened buddhist monks driving in their brand new lexus sedans.


--------------------
enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.

Edited by atomikfunksoldier (06/10/03 11:19 PM)

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Re: Enlightenment Cant be reached [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1625321 -

atomikfunksoldier makes a interesting point.

I bet there are many eastern equivalents of those on this board that bash Buddhism and point to all the good things Christianity has to offer.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: Enlightenment Cant be reached [Re: ]
    #1625338 -


I think there is no one single truth to the megaverse- It's like a layered concept that can never be totally achieved because there are so many 'layers'.

I just try to grasp as much of the 'bigger pitcure' as I can.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


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Re: Enlightenment Cant be reached [Re: Murex]
    #1625353 -

exactly Murex.

Thats why I say enlightenment is not seeing things AS THEY ARE IN THEIR TRUEST FORM.

Because as long as you percieve things with your senses, which is how ALL living beings according to my knowledge function ; you are still just PERCEIVING. Perception is interpretation.

However, we CAN see things exactly as our senses bring them in, and act accordingly, without interference. This is enlightenment in my opinion. It goes beyond emotions EFFECTING our lives - it may sound like a bad thing, but its not.

I, and probably everyone Ive ever met - does NOT see things clearly. Our mind is so congested that we very rarely if ever live in the moment and just percieve things, without judging, fearing, or our mind doing extra tasks.

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Re: Enlightenment Cant be reached [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1625922 -

lol, maybe true, i don't know that much of eastern religions. True the knowledge came from a textbook, so your probibliy right!


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And the gameshow host rings the buzzer (brrnnntt) oh and now you get a face full of face!

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Re: Enlightenment Cant be reached [Re: johnnyfive]
    #1626251 -

Enlightenment can be better termed as "Awakening," which cannot be thought of as something to posess, something to grasp, something to attain, a place to arrive. It is to fully realize the true nature of our own being, the underlying essence of all Things. It is this suchness we cannot see. Our ignorance is the fundamental cause of all suffering.

When a pond is stirred by a storm, the water becomes cloudy with sediment. We cannot see to the bottom. The reflections on the surface of the pond are jumbled and indiscernable. When the storm passes, the pond will settle and shimmer with brightness, mirroring it's surroundings with perfect clarity. The water becomes clear, and we can see deep inside.

Our minds are like this pond, disturbed by our frantic desire to be freed from the suffering we are all born into. Our minds are at all times craving for satisfaction from external objects: beautiful sights, music, luxurious commodities, profits, fame and power. Why should it be so? Because we seek contentment.

If we live without food and clothing, we will need to obtain money in order to solve the problem of livelihood. But once we have enough food and clothing, we will still be dissatisfied. This time we will seek for food and clothing of better quality. We will want stylish sedans to drive, and a magnificent mansion to live in. When we have all these, we will still remain dissatisfied. The human mind is just like that, forever seeking, never contented. It runs like a galloping horse; no sooner than its rear feet touch the ground, its fore feet are already in the air. Never will its four feet land at the same time. *

If we do not find contentment, we will never have peace and happiness. Thus we say, "We have to be content in order to have peace and happiness." Yet the fact remains that the human mind can never be content. So how can there be peace and happiness? Religions in general try to give people comfort and make them content. Giving comfort may also be considered a common denominator of most religions. Some religions preach salvation through faith and say that salvation will naturally bring contentment and peace of mind. However, they can be seen to treat adults like children. That is, they will give "toys" to the children if the latter obey their guidance and refrain from crying. In fact the problem remains unsolved, because a discontent mind cannot be satisfied by external gifts. *

It is safe to say that we've all experienced to some degree the effects of "Karma". Karma can be thought of as a relationship between the causes and effects of suffering. The more wicked we are to others, the more we impede Life than assist it, such will come to us in the form of suffering. To purge the poisonous effects of bad deeds, we refrain from exercising them, while grapsing every opportunity to perform good deeds, striving toward altruism.

Altruism is to consider others before yourself as the first and foremost intention of every word, every act, every where and every time. This helps us purify the mind, and awakens us to the Reality of Things.

It is an ideal that requires discipline, and a lifetime of practice. Certainly not something that can be obtained by ingesting this or that. Though, it can be said that certain entheogens may act as a powerfully impelling factor.


--------------------


:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace

Edited by Ped (06/11/03 11:49 AM)

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Re: Enlightenment Cant be reached [Re: Ped]
    #1626320 -

Great post Ped. True that the human mind is never satisfied with anything, it desires more and more. And again good job on pointing out that Enlightenment is not a one day or even one year deal; it requires extensive work and very high amounts of will power. Enlightenment also has become a cause of suffering; many people try so hard to obtain it, yet most never reach it, they fall deeply into regret and think of how much time they have wasted. Yet they do not see that they have indeed progressed from their original state. That is why no one should in practice desire enlightenment, it is just something that will eventually come to all of us.


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Aum Namah Sivaya

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Re: Enlightenment Cant be reached [Re: Cougheeman]
    #1626330 -

Great post, enlightenment can be reached, i have reached it, you wont find it in your mind though. You should learn to see with your chin, and feel with your ears, that is the practice of zazen.


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" liken this life illusory, for your sand castle will one day be adrift amongst the wind "



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Re: Enlightenment Cant be reached [Re: ViBrAnT]
    #1626339 -

>i have reached it
so what's it like ? or what isn't it like ? or what is it ?
or... nevermind :grin:


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"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."

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Re: Enlightenment Cant be reached [Re: lucid]
    #1626340 -

>You should learn to see with your chin, and feel with your ears
is it safe to do this while crossing the road ?


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."

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Re: Enlightenment Cant be reached [Re: lucid]
    #1626342 -

it is if you say it is, just dont be late for your appointment with death.


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" liken this life illusory, for your sand castle will one day be adrift amongst the wind "



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Re: Enlightenment Cant be reached [Re: ViBrAnT]
    #1626350 -

constant rushes of bliss, aimless wandering at night while stoned, dont care about anything, love everything.


--------------------
" liken this life illusory, for your sand castle will one day be adrift amongst the wind "



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Re: Enlightenment Cant be reached [Re: ViBrAnT]
    #1626375 -

>just dont be late for your appointment with death
I always keep my appointments... it's death that evades me...
and life that's firmly planted it's claws in me...the scars go deep...


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."

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Re: Enlightenment Cant be reached [Re: ViBrAnT]
    #1626662 -

>> Enlightenment also has become a cause of suffering; many people try so hard to obtain it, yet most never reach it, they fall deeply into regret and think of how much time they have wasted. Yet they do not see that they have indeed progressed from their original state. That is why no one should in practice desire enlightenment, it is just something that will eventually come to all of us.

How misguided, to be motivated toward awakening for no cause greater than desire!  It is our desires that lull us to sleep all along, after all.  There is much to be said for the ethical and personally virtuous progress that can be made along that path, but even so, it is not unlike attempting to cross an ocean whilst anchored to shore by a thousand-mile lead.


>> Great post, enlightenment can be reached, i have reached it, you wont find it in your mind though. You should learn to see with your chin, and feel with your ears, that is the practice of zazen

To claim you have reached Satori is immediately to admit otherwise. :smile:  Or did you mean something else? 


--------------------


:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace

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Re: Enlightenment Cant be reached [Re: Ped]
    #1626907 -

There is still many things that seem to get in the way of reaching enlightenment, such as the weird creature in DMT hyperspace or the explanation of diffrent dimentions ect. How can we awake from the dream if they are thing we dont understand. Is it just the physical world that dosnt realy exist or is it the whole experience of being here that is the illusion including the machine elves.
Then there is the part of trying to be happy and desire nothing in a world that is constantly trying to screw with you head and make you want everything.

Anyway say enlightenment was achived in life would this then mean that you would view the world in its true from, the best example of this could be seen in the matrix where neo sees the world in code. But this could bring up other problem such as this would set the basics for magick the reason being is that if you can see the code then you can change it.

The problem with this tho would contradict Enlightenment because powers like these would probably corrupt you and feed the ego. Unless this would mean there would be no ego games and any powers gained from Enlightenment would simply not be used.


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Fighting the man the best way I can.

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Re: Enlightenment Cant be reached [Re: EvilGir]
    #1627123 -

Here is a short passage on what Satguru Sivaya Subramuniyaswami said after his awakening and returning to the city. (btw Satguru stands for a self realized swami)

"Returning back to the city, nothing looked the same anymore. I was in another dimension. Everything was different. I had lost something: the desire for the realization of the Self. I felt complete. I felt alone.
One night, just before sleep, I saw before me a vision of a tremendous peacock tail, open and framing the screen before my eyes. In Hindu mysticism, Lord Murugan rides through the akasha on a peacock. This is the way he traveled in the inner area of the mind."

This is another passage in which he talks about his awakening.
"There was just one thing lacking, however- and i had to do it myself- the ultimate goal, the realization of the Self. It was with joy and burning desire that I approached the caves of Jalani. I had absolutely nothing with me. I had given all of my money to the villagers along the way. I didn't take any food. I had given all of my clothing away, everything. I just went there to be alone.
I said to myself. "I am going to fast until i find this realization that I so wanted and have wanted for such a long time." I started to fast. The Mustan wasn't there. He had gone away on a pilgrimage. No one was there. There were no pilgrims. I was left alone. I went up and into the cave. I started to meditate. I went in and in and in and in and then in and in again, and finally I went in and in until awareness became totally aware of itself, and into the control of the breath until the breath breathed no more, and then into the Self, Parasiva.
I came out again into the mind. Villagers had seen me on the cliffs from the villages three hundred feet below. They thought I was some sort of holy man and brought food and all sorts of nice things. We had a big feast. I was hungry. They had come all the way up from the valley. They were so kind."

"The enlightened being sees beyond duality and knows the oneness of all. He is the illumined one, filled with life, filled with love."

Satguru Sivaya Subramuniyaswami is the founder of Hinduism Today and also the founder of Kaui's Hindu Monastery and Iraivan Temple. He passed away recently in 2001. Here is website if you would like to learn more http://www.gurudeva.org/


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Aum Namah Sivaya

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Re: Enlightenment Cant be reached [Re: EvilGir]
    #1627859 -

There are no boundaries


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Re: Enlightenment Cant be reached [Re: Shroomism]
    #1629286 -

>Enlightenment Cant be reached
Nope, and yet it's always for sale :grin:


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."

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Re: Enlightenment Cant be reached [Re: EvilGir]
    #1629346 -

Physical death is not Enlightenment any more than it is entrance into Heaven - giving two ways of talking about the same thing. As Cougheeman put it, it's about wholeness, not dissolution. Dissolution of the mind-body is death, not integration or wholeness which constitutes a truly spiritual dimension to one's life. This is what the psychedelic pioneers of the 1960's were trying to teach society, with the Tibetan Book of the Dead (or translated into 'The Psychedelic Experience' by Leary et al.) in hand. Ego death does occur at death, but it can occur from non-fatal mystical experience - even psychedelically "occasioned' mystical experience. Ego-death alone doesn't transform one's personality into the "Inner Man," (of St. Paul) or "the Immortal Fetus" (of the Taoists). This is what the classic tripping text 'BE HERE NOW' is about.

BHN gleaned mystical perspectiveves from mostly Hindu and Buddhist sources, but the Gospel According to Thomas - a genuine 'Gnostic Gospel,' also describes a 'Realized Eschatology,' which means that unlike the New Testament which places Heaven primarily in the indeterminate future (even though "the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand..."), for Thomas, and Gnostics in general, it is, yup, Here and Now. The Awareness of this Truth is what Enlightenment is. It is nothing to be 'attained,' or 'possessed' once and for all, but the glimpses may be more frequent with age, and the lapses into meaningless existence grow shorter in duration until those numerous glimpses form One complete vision (like beads of Mercury that connect into one large drop). So cheer up! Stay on a Path with Heart, and your character will also attain a radiant nature.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: What's the meaning of life? [Re: lucid]
    #1631740 -

Quote:
for me, enlightenment would be a permenant change of perception. A complete
tranformation of the self. There would be no "going back" that would make no sense.


There is no going back unless you manage to forget the whole experience, but I can't imagine how anyone could do that. However, there is a kind of "going back" in the sense of coming down and re-entering a personal ego-perspective again, in the same human body as the one that consumed the mushrooms in the first place. If you know what I'm talking about you will also recognize that the "going back" was a choice that was made at a particular point during the trip.

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Re: Enlightenment Cant be reached [Re: EvilGir]
    #8424219 -

no you've got it. perfect enlightenment is complete ego loss, which can only be obtained with the dissolution of your physical self.

I dont think I could tell my body to turn off with my mind, but I can turn it off other ways. and when you are comfortable doing that you know for sure that you are enlightened.

some people know!

death and taxus

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Re: Enlightenment Cant be reached [Re: panjandrum]
    #8424258 -

don't think he's listening :lol: this thread is 5 years old

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Re: Enlightenment Cant be reached [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #8432539 -

Hello, your thoughts are interesting. I have a couple of questions. Is it not possible that to gain control of your ego, you must experience the dissolution of the ego first. Timothy Leary, and Richard Alpert mixed hallucinogens and eastern philosophy, and used it to become rich and famous. What did they actually accomplish. Were any of their words ever proven to be true. How could two people with such large egos attain any beneficial knowledge. I have read many of the so called "banned books of the bible", including the gnostic scriptures. Why do you think people are hesitant to include these in their reading material.

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Re: Enlightenment Cant be reached [Re: EvilGir]
    #8439569 -

EvilGir said:
Does anyone feel here no matter how many drugs you take or how many years you spend thinking and trying to work stuff out that enlightenment cant be reached while your alive. I think that during life stuff may be worked out but its only realy when your dead you can permantly change things and escape the physical existence or maybe we all have to wait for somesort of technological advancement/evolution to free us all. 


It cant be reached because it is already so! How far are you from your self!? Technology will not ever help you to be free from the idea you have of yourself.

If you think it is a thing that can be reached you already have some mental construct of what it "is" as if its some distance from what you already are. It is you, without the conditioning & attachments of you, that simple awareness.

All that enlightenment is, is realising that there is no-one to become enlightened, realisation that the "me" ego identity is a dream then all beliefs & thoughts are left to play they're play as theyre are seen as unreal, all that you remain as is as the neutral observer of all that arises. This is unchanging reality is pure joy.
Dont wait to discover it its already here.

:peace:


--------------------
"Don't keep searching for truth, simply let go of your beliefs" Buddha

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Re: Enlightenment Cant be reached [Re: EvilGir]
    #8442216 -

EvilGir said:
Does anyone feel here no matter how many drugs you take or how many years you spend thinking and trying to work stuff out that enlightenment cant be reached while your alive.


I don't know whether enlightenment is attainable during life. But drugs are not the way to get there. For me psychedelics have always just uncovered deeper questions, and never provided answers (that I could remember or understand once I came back to reality).

I read about tibetan buddhist monks that were given LSD, and they said that it brought them to the first bardo, which is where they believe the spirit goes immediately after death. That seemed to be about all they got out of the experience.

Psychedelics are an intense and insightful experience, but they're not gonna give you the answers to the great questions.

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Re: Enlightenment Cant be reached [Re: BoneMan]
    #8442783 -

while you are thinking things through, you hold the image or cadence of one idea in your mind and then bring up another idea or process and fit them together
- usually, for me, I like to hold one still, and I fit the other around, a bit like a child playing with lego, but sometimes both ideas are moving.

these mental excercises are possible with natural intelligence and plasticity.

people on psychedelics seem to have more mental plasticity than normal, and all varieties of things can be surmized:
it seems easier to hold more than one thing in mind at the same time, and it is easier to find them fitting.

the elated mind does not check very much for inconsistencies, but rolls along happily making connections.

When so many things fit together, is it enlightenment or delusion?
When one goes with the flow without annoying doubts is it enlightenment or delusion?

Many say that the buoyant easiness and openness that "can be achieved" on psychedelics (a fraction of the time) is simmilar to a preview of what enlightenment is like.

I think it relates to the plasticity of mind, and the understanding of the essential sameness in the potential of all people, however I don't think enlightenment is an inebriated state/stasis.

plasticity and understanding can operate in all states, from cold sober, through normalcy of ho-hum pain & pleasure, tipsiness, debauched, discombobulated, and even sleep as well, or heavily layered "ego-loss" type dreams.

there is no need to call it enlightenment, except to contrast with the alternative which is entanglement and suffering.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Enlightenment Cant be reached [Re: Sev]
    #8442875 -

I also agree enlightenment is an illusion. For one thing, why are people so obsessed with it? Also, I don't necessarily believe in souls and the belief in a soul must be made before the belief that enlightenment is achievable must be made.

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Re: Enlightenment Cant be reached [Re: Boots]
    #8442909 -

Past research has found that subjects can identify a word faster if the previous string of characters is a closely related word. For example, subjects can recognize the word "black" more quickly if it has been immediately preceeded by the word "white." This effect is known as semantic priming. In normal subjects, semantic priming occurs only with closely related words. However, indirectly related words ("sweet" and "lemon," for example) produce semantic priming in thought-disordered schizophrenic subjects (Spitzer et al 1993a, 1993b).

Semantic priming

The researchers found that psilocybin slowed the subjects' reaction times while at the same time producing a semantic priming effect for indirectly related words ("sweet" and "lemon"), similar to that seen in the schizophrenia research. The finding that psilocybin slowed reaction times was not unexpected; past research with psychedelics has found the same effect. However, the finding that psilocybin produced indirect semantic priming is more interesting. In their discussion, the researchers point out that their findings are relevant to claims that psychedelics "enhance creativity" or "broaden consciousness":

Although most objective measures have failed to support these claims, our data suggest that the [hallucinogenic] agent in fact leads to an increased availability of remote associations and thereby may bring cognitive contents to mind that under normal circumstances remain nonactivated; however, the generally decreased psychological performance under hallucinogenic agents suggest that the increased indirect priming effect is due to a decreased capacity to use contextual information for the focusing of semantic processing. Hence, subjectively experienced increases in creativity as well as the broadening of consciousness have been found to parallel decreases in objective performance measures (p. 1056-1057).

Thus, the researchers suggest that psychedelics may in fact "broaden consciousness" by making remote mental associations more available. However, this involves a trade-off. Although remote mental associations are more available, subjects are less able to focus, which slows their reaction times.

Semantic neural networks

The researchers interpret their findings using a model which states that the brain contains semantic neural networks which can become activated by semantic information. The spread of this activation through the networks determines the amount of semantic priming that occurs in the word-recognition task. Activation spreads further and faster in thought-disordered schizophrenics and psilocybin users than in normal volunteers. One explanation for this unusual amount of activation is decreased efficiency in the cortex where semantic information is processed (Servan-Schreiber et al 1990, Cohen and Servan-Schreiber 1992, 1993). There is evidence that this inefficient processing is related to the decreased dopaminergic modulation. In support of this theory, the researchers have found that L-dopa, a precursor to dopamine, reduces the spread of activation and therefore reduces indirect semantic priming (Kischka et al 1995). In the context of this theory, psilocybin (which acts on the serotonin system) can be seen as increasing activation of semantic networks.

From: http://www.maps.org/news-letters/v07n1/07110bag.html


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Re: Enlightenment Cant be reached [Re: backfromthedead]
    #8443018 -

i.e. associative mentation
== pattern simmilarity

elevation in the serotonin system makes things fade more slowly
this allows more easy matching (up to a point)
though it does not promote distinctions
some things are taken as good matches which normally are only mediocre matches...


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Enlightenment Cant be reached [Re: EvilGir]
    #8443526 -

EvilGir said:
Does anyone feel here no matter how many drugs you take or how many years you spend thinking and trying to work stuff out that enlightenment cant be reached while your alive. I think that during life stuff may be worked out but its only realy when your dead you can permantly change things and escape the physical existence or maybe we all have to wait for somesort of technological advancement/evolution to free us all.


So you don't think this thought of your is enlightening at all?


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing

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Re: Enlightenment Cant be reached [Re: BoneMan]
    #8443569 -

The Icelander is as enlightened as it gets.:satansmoking:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Enlightenment Cant be reached [Re: Cracka_X]
    #8443648 -

Ahhh... good ol' enlightenment. 

In a society of spiritual seekers, is there any word that is more loaded with meaning than enlightenment?

I liken the concept of enlightenment to the Greek story of Tantalus.  The more you strive for it, the further away it seems.

Here is something my Teacher wrote that I find gives great insight into the moment of awakening:

Quote:
Dogen zenji says, "At that moment, our eyes have become black beads."

This phrase means that in actualizing the ten directions as this bodymind we are not excited, are not overcome or overwrought. An equivalent might be the English phrase, "we are steely-eyed" except that this has the sense of being braced and prepared. Dogen means that in recognizing, at that moment, in this moment, the wonders of the ten directions that are completely this bodymind and completely the ten directions, the realization is so deep that we do not regard it as something separate from us. It is not merely an experience that we are having. It is a moment in which experiences are there without us getting in the way. Sometimes there is an opening or a kensho in our practice and we might find ourselves laughing or crying or feeling very joyful. This is fine. But these reactions also often mean that the opening is narrowing and fading and we are reacting to it, are separating ourselves from it. They can also be ways of venting away the energy of the opening and a way of closing it down. Deep openings on the other hand are often so radical that they seem ordinary. We might arch our brow and smile slightly when we realize that we are always already beyond birth and death and have utterly transcended the Total Field of All Possibilities.



It is like the process of trying to see your own eyes, which can cause quite a strain.  Waking up can be like saying "fuck it" and just seeing with the eyes instead.  So much easier.

:hippie:

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Re: Enlightenment Cant be reached [Re: Boots]
    #8443840 -

Boots said:
I also agree enlightenment is an illusion. For one thing, why are people so obsessed with it? Also, I don't necessarily believe in souls and the belief in a soul must be made before the belief that enlightenment is achievable must be made.

Souls exist in the same way as ocean waves and clouds exist -- they are transient phenomena whose boundaries are defined by convention.

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Re: Enlightenment Cant be reached [Re: Rhizoid]
    #8443907 -

Rhizoid said:
Souls exist in the same way as ocean waves and clouds exist -- they are transient phenomena whose boundaries are defined by convention.


Nice :cool:

The same can be said of the human body, and everything else for that matter. 



:hippie:

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Re: Enlightenment Cant be reached [Re: Quoiyaien]
    #8444001 -

Knock your head on the wall for me, real hard, and tell me it's just conventions.

:hippie:

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Re: Enlightenment Cant be reached [Re: deimya]
    #8444032 -

i think when a trouble is overcome it is a kind of enlightenment
i.e. the load is lighter.
so many entanglements can be overcome to make the load much lighter.
those are just habituated options at each turn (of your broom).
this is hard to see, but if you see it (while sweeping), you are enlightened.



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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Enlightenment Cant be reached [Re: deimya]
    #8444152 -

deimya said:
Knock your head on the wall for me, real hard, and tell me it's just conventions.

:hippie:


I was referring to the transient phenomena of the body.  The convention here being birth and death. 

If I hit my head on the wall, the pain would be "born", it would dwell, "Son of a bitch, that fuckin hurts" and it dies.

Convention here perhaps being a clinging to the concept of pain, rather than the fading sensation itself. 

Ultimately the pain arose out of prior circumstances, (me proving a point by hitting my head on a wall, due to your post, which was preceded by my post, which ultimately goes back to the threadstarter, then whoever is in charge of creating the philosophy forum, back the the birth of the shroomery, preceded by a desire to create a community of likeminded individuals, etc etc...) 

When viewed in this manner, where did the pain ultimately come from?  What was the initial cause?  I have heard the theory for God as being the initial cause in an infinite line of cause and effect. So I blame God for the pain in my head.  "Do you see what God did to us man?"

:hippie:

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Re: Enlightenment Cant be reached [Re: Quoiyaien]
    #8444190 -

"Do you see what God did to us man?"

:lol:

Its okay...  He sent his only son to die for you.:what:

:shrug:

:thumbup:


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Re: Enlightenment Cant be reached [Re: Rhizoid] * 1
    #23123899 -

Enlightenment is being absolutely aware of all. Once attained you have reached superiority over all others.


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It’s not personal

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Re: Enlightenment Cant be reached [Re: EvilGir]
    #23124162 -

EvilGir said:
Does anyone feel here no matter how many drugs you take or how many years you spend thinking and trying to work stuff out that enlightenment cant be reached while your alive. I think that during life stuff may be worked out but its only realy when your dead you can permantly change things and escape the physical existence or maybe we all have to wait for somesort of technological advancement/evolution to free us all. 


How old are you? You sound impatient and young enough to be making assumptions about Reality. Firstly, "drugs" are just medicines if used correctly which can facilitate change. Certain medicines can direct consciousness to turn in upon itself in persons who are too extraverted and non-reflective. But the work with consciousness involves the personality to a large extent, and you assume that personality continues post mortem. I think this is a gross misunderstanding of ANY scheme of Eternal Life that one wants to seriously consider. In Christianity, Eternal Life does NOT mean personal immortality. One 'enters into' Eternal Life, Realizing a mystical Union, either during one's lifetime in mystical Union, or ostensibly when the physical body and its ego undergoes physical death. Not only does the physical form perish, but the personality of that body along with all memory and referents to the life of that body. What apparently DOES continue (according to Christian theology) is Pure Identity - the "I AM" that Jesus refers to himself as Being in the Johannine material, and love, agapé, which is said to be God (1 John 4:8), which are one and the same Reality. One could add Light to these transcendental attributes. 

But EvilGir, and MarkostheGnostic as separate personalities comprised of compounded psychic aspects (sensations, emotions, thought, memories, etc.) perishes. What arises to the dying 'us,' is that Eternal "I AM" that is the common Ultimate Identity of you and I and every self-conscious sentient human being. I suspect (based on personal mystical experience) that when we encounter the self-effulgent Clear Light (as in Buddhism) or the Beatific Vision (in mystical Christianity), we experience our True Nature (another Buddhist reference) with warm, ecstatic familiarity. Life will end just as an ordinary dream ends, and we awaken to our True Identity. Sometimes that True Identity manages to be glimpsed in physical life during profound mystical Union. I've had the experience once, my favorite philosopher Plotinus had it 6 times, his student Porphyry had it once also.

Technology has nothing to do with consciousness (the modern term for spirit, although Plotinus didn't like the identity of these terms - but that was 270 CE). technology deals with physical nature and consciousness, unlike everything in nature (Greek: physis), has neither mass or extension in space or time. Consciousness is non-substantial, and the non-quantifiable language of philosophy, theology, and transpersonal psychology speak more to it than the idioms of science.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Enlightenment Cant be reached [Re: idontknow1]
    #23124978 -

idontknow1 said:
Enlightenment is being absolutely aware of all. Once attained you have reached superiority over all others.


Well I like it in theory.  Having been a landlord for 30 years, I think you may be on to something as well.  I like it.  I was going to mock it, but I like it.  I fucking like it a lot.

Awareness.  Yes man that is it!  Being aware.  Superiority follows logically.  If I am aware, I know, and you are yet another asleep zombie like most, then I am superiour.  I can even be a Brit, and put in an extra u just to confuse.  Just to be a Brit with a better pot to piss in, ass it were.


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.

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Re: Enlightenment Cant be reached [Re: EvilGir]
    #23126270 -

the unenlightened are not in a position to have a viewpoint on enlightenment except to be attracted or repulsed by the proposition.

personally I am attracted to it, but I am not attracted to claims of enlightenment or to manipulation games that surround groups, congregations or societies, who profess enlightenment.

we need more enlightenment to help with heavy dark moments - these ideas may or may not help you with your questions, but if you are attracted to the proposition, learn insight meditation and practice it for yourself.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Enlightenment Cant be reached [Re: EvilGir]
    #23126298 -

EvilGir said:
Does anyone feel here no matter how many drugs you take or how many years you spend thinking and trying to work stuff out that enlightenment cant be reached while your alive. 


firstly the long term tool of choice is meditation, not therapy, drugs or thinking, for deepening concentration leading to deep insight & Dharana—contemplation, Dhyana— absorption, & Samadhi—oneness


secondly just because you can't be Arnold Schwartenegger you won't lift weights, or won't enjoy playing the guitar cause you can't be Hendrix?

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Re: Enlightenment Cant be reached [Re: laughingdog] * 2
    #23127820 -

enlightenement is seeing that the question was asked 7 years ago and he's probably dead :facepalm: :yinyang2:

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Re: Enlightenment Cant be reached [Re: zzripz]
    #23128000 -

ya got me

very funny

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Re: Enlightenment Cant be reached [Re: laughingdog]
    #23128082 -

Most little kids know they are God.

My contribution to the thread.

CHEERZ MOIT


--------------------
My solitude...
My shield...
My armour...

TESTED
WITH
FULL
FORCE

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Re: Enlightenment Cant be reached [Re: circastes]
    #23128335 -

Most little kids are yet to be brainwashed into submission.


--------------------
"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."

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Re: Enlightenment Cant be reached [Re: viktor]
    #23128846 -

We'll get out of this mess. Trust me.


--------------------
My solitude...
My shield...
My armour...

TESTED
WITH
FULL
FORCE

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