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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: will any of us reach enlightenment? [Re: Swami]
    #1799363 -

base it on the principles of logical progression. you knew nothing when you were born, now you know a lot of things. obviously you are being led somewhere.

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Re: will any of us reach enlightenment? [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1799372 -

Rhizoid said:
In buddhist tradition there are four stages of enlightenment, called Sotapanna (stream-entry), Sakadagami (once-returner), Anagami (no-returner), and Arahat (worthy one).

The first stage, sotapanna, is a person who has overcome "wrong view" of the self. This is usually accomplished by having a moment of insight in which you see that the self is just a mind-construct that has no independent reality.

I don't see why it should make any difference if this moment of insight is produced by deep meditation, or by constant mindfulness, or by psychedelic drugs, or by having a near-death experience.

The second stage is when a person from the previous stage is able to diminish his or her attachments and angry emotions.

The third stage is when a person from the previous stage has eradicated all attachments to the sensual world.

The fourth stage is when a person from the previous stage has also eradicated the final attachments to the self.

At all stages except the fourth, people who have experienced enlightenment still act in delusional ways sometimes. At least according to Buddhism. I'm not sure what to believe, but it makes sense to me that people who have experienced enlightenment and are on the path to complete awakening but are not quite there yet, can still be conceited idiots. :smile:

Anyway, I don't think there are any drugs that can help you go from stage 1 to stage 4 in these stages of enlightenment.
   


Excellent post.  I've felt more enlightened  ever since my level 5 trip.  I'd say I've definitely reached the first stage, and I'm working on getting to the second stage.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: will any of us reach enlightenment? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1799378 -

DoctorJ said:
base it on the principles of logical progression. you knew nothing when you were born, now you know a lot of things. obviously you are being led somewhere.


That somewhere might really be nowhere as the knowledge you have was brainwashed by unintelligent people.

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Re: will any of us reach enlightenment? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1799385 -

base it on the principles of logical progression. you knew nothing when you were born, now you know a lot of things. obviously you are being led somewhere.

That is knowledge and wisdom which are totally unrelated to the classical eastern defintion of enlightenment. Sometimes knowledge is considered a barrier in some schools.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: will any of us reach enlightenment? [Re: neutralizer]
    #1799388 -

"It's okay swami, once you reach enlightenment, you'll understand."

This reminds me of a time that I was debating with a Christian why he believes in his religion.

He told me that if I just had faith, then I would believe and understand Jesus' love.

So basically, if you force yourself to believe a certain thing, then you will be certain that it is correct. No matter what the basis is.

Basically, it's possible to convince yourself that you've got full understanding of the inner workings of the universe, even if you've really just dreamed up some cool images and ideas.

I'm sure that it can be a very invigorating, exciting, and empowering experience, but thinking that you really have a full understanding of the universe is really just deluding yourself.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: will any of us reach enlightenment? [Re: Phluck]
    #1799446 -

"That is knowledge and wisdom which are totally unrelated to the classical eastern defintion of enlightenment. Sometimes knowledge is considered a barrier in some schools."

Damn the crapiness of this ambiguous language! semantics really suck.

I guess I should have substituted "understanding" for knowledge. Your knowledge could never increase, or you could be taught false knowledge via brainwashing, but chances are, the longer you live in reality, the closer you will get to understanding its true nature. Some people learn faster than others, and some need multiple lifetimes to learn, IMO.

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Re: will any of us reach enlightenment? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1799542 -

Swami, as I told you. Your train of thought is far too analytical and nonaccepting to understand enlightenment. Enlightenment is a human reality, I can promise you that. Logic is not a path to enlightenment.

If I could do work on you, I would. Everyone needs work, and I wish I could let you experience enlightenment. I have had experiences with it, on different levels. I am not an enlightened being as of now, however. Lasting enlightenment is something I have not experienced. I have experienced temporary enlightenment.


Science and Logic are both small steps in humanity. Consider them ego-driven and rather unevolved. Experience and Truth don't necessarily need science nor logic.


Science is a useful tool , but what I am trying to explain to you, from what I can tell is does more harm to your evolution as a human than does good. Perphaps you should take up an art such as QiGong, or Hatha Yoga.


You will learn there is much more once you balance your emotional/physical body out more.

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Re: will any of us reach enlightenment? [Re: tekramrepus]
    #1799973 -

Perphaps you should take up an art such as QiGong, or Hatha Yoga.


Typical false assumption. Studied both yoga and martial arts. Never discovered anything magical or metaphysical; only physical.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: will any of us reach enlightenment? [Re: Swami]
    #1800257 -

I got enlightened one time...................... it tickled.

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Re: will any of us reach enlightenment? [Re: tekramrepus]
    #1800457 -

Quote:
Science and Logic are both small steps in humanity. Consider them ego-driven and rather unevolved.


Compared to what? And in what sense do you mean that logic is ego-driven?

Quote:
Science is a useful tool , but what I am trying to explain to you, from what I can tell is does more harm to your evolution as a human than does good.


I have also briefly experienced enlightenment during a level 5 trip, and I see no conflict at all between science and spiritual evolution. On the contrary, I find logic and science very helpful for understanding what is happening.

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Re: will any of us reach enlightenment? [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1800634 -

Quote:
I see no conflict at all between science and spiritual evolution. On the contrary, I find logic and science very helpful for understanding what is happening.



Good point. I think that logic has an essential role to play in furthering our understanding of "enlightenment". Science could perhaps analyse the brain chemistry of people who have supposedly gained enlightenment etc. You never know research such as this could make it easier for people to follow in their paths in the future!

As for logic being ego driven Id say that ego is equally prevalent within the world of those seeking the truth or enlightenment whatever you want to call it.


--------------------
Always Smi2le

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Re: will any of us reach enlightenment? [Re: GazzBut]
    #1800756 -

I agree, logic is essential.

Quote:

This reminds me of a time that I was debating with a Christian why he believes in his religion.

He told me that if I just had faith, then I would believe and understand Jesus' love.

So basically, if you force yourself to believe a certain thing, then you will be certain that it is correct. No matter what the basis is.




We can't give up logic, reason, you cannot force belief. Logic is essential to life. You will always question. It will unravel if proded. I am Muslim, and for me understanding is a prerequisete to True belief. The Christian belief of "blind faith", is not one I agree with or believe that any human should deny logic. That is what seperates us from the animals.

"If we spent as much time on spiritual pursuit as we do on material, we would all be Enlightened by now." -Buddha (not exact wording)

Enlightenment may be whatever you choose to define it. But it is a goal of understanding, of insight, on the Path. This Path is progessive understanding based on logic. Be it as it may, we all suffer, and we all know the defillaments that exist in our minds. We may be content but must we stop questioning is there more? .. this is the Path that there is to explore. It is one of many.

For me it is Buddhist, it's basis is of the practise of meditation and its benefits. It's ideals and wisdom, is one I agree with and that is support of my religious belief. That is my Path, I seek to find the right Path. Is it right? I believe on the basis of the essential truth that all life is suffering. The Path for me atleast. My Goal, Enlightenment.


--------------------
May Peace and fellicity smile on those who seek it.

Edited by nemesis (08/11/03 05:11 AM)

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Re: will any of us reach enlightenment? [Re: Swami]
    #1800758 -

Swami said:
Typical false assumption. Studied both yoga and martial arts. Never discovered anything magical or metaphysical; only physical.


Now, I am not an expert on these things, but I believe the physical things done in these arts are suspossed to also clear your mind.. it is possible to perform the movements or whatever without ever getting the empty mind, and a lot of trainers in America probably don't incorporate the mental training into it, either.

My words aren't really informed, though, but those are my thoughts on it.. maybe someone more involved in martial arts and yoga can help me out...
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: will any of us reach enlightenment? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4861269 -

Quote:
I don't see why it should make any difference if this moment of insight is produced by deep meditation, or by constant mindfulness, or by psychedelic drugs, or by having a near-death experience.

The second stage is when a person from the previous stage is able to diminish his or her attachments and angry emotions.

The third stage is when a person from the previous stage has eradicated all attachments to the sensual world.

The fourth stage is when a person from the previous stage has also eradicated the final attachments to the self.


when you transcend the physical and are finally given access to everything you have always wanted, no matter what it may be


--------------------
"It is easier to teach a computer to play chess than to build a mudpie."Sherry Turkle Life on the Screen: Identity in the Age of the Internet
"Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts"-Einstein
:mrt: I pity the fool who break traffic laws with $870,000 of drugs in the car.      -mo0nlite_sonata
Psythos

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Re: will any of us reach enlightenment? [Re: Sole_Worthy]
    #4861277 -

Enlightenment is a journey, not a destination.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: will any of us reach enlightenment? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4861687 -

I think most of all the people in the world have experienced enlightenment,I really believe that enlightenment doesn't have to be as a whole and general,goal or journey.. etc. but I think a person experiences enlightenment many times. in different situations throughout their life. I think it has to do a lot with finding yourself, and most important finding peace inside you. finding balance with your true nature. Lots of understanding.Finding in your own ideas the truth and peace.

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Re: will any of us reach enlightenment? [Re: Phluck]
    #4862804 -

Phluck said:
"It's okay swami, once you reach enlightenment, you'll understand."

This reminds me of a time that I was debating with a Christian why he believes in his religion.

He told me that if I just had faith, then I would believe and understand Jesus' love.

So basically, if you force yourself to believe a certain thing, then you will be certain that it is correct. No matter what the basis is.

Basically, it's possible to convince yourself that you've got full understanding of the inner workings of the universe, even if you've really just dreamed up some cool images and ideas.

I'm sure that it can be a very invigorating, exciting, and empowering experience, but thinking that you really have a full understanding of the universe is really just deluding yourself.


deluding what self? enlightenment is knowing yourself, not fully understanding everything in the universe. what you're saying is very illogical because basically enlightenment is defined as non deluded mind. you're saying having a non deluded mind is delusional which is a contradiction. furthermore on what do you base your claim? i could say the same about you. "its possible to convince yourself enlightenment isn't real, even if you've just dreamed up some cool ideas and images (which has what to do with enlightenment by the way?)

I'm sure that it can be a very invigorating, exciting, and empowering experience, but thinking that you really have a full understanding of enlightnemnet being unreal is just deluding yourself. "

you see? youre argument is completely baseless. the only way to truly be sure if enlightenment is real is to become enlightened. what other way could there be? by the way, you don't even seem to have a very solid understanding of what enlightenment is said to be as it involves knowing yourself, the knower. it's not "invorgating or exciting", these both imply an other to be invorated or excited while enlightenment involves making the knower and the knwon into one.


for swami: there is plenty of evidence enlightenment exists if you want to accept it and plenty of reason to believe in it, but as i said the only way to know is to become enlightened. how else could you know for sure? in my opinion everyones nature is enlightenment, it is what allows you to read and understand this post. however some people aren't consciouss of their enlightened nature and delude themselves into believing they are not enlightened, which results in unenlightened behavior. supposing you had to guess, would you guess that there is a thing called enlightenment or not? and rememebr enlightenment doesnt have to be final but can be an ongoing process of self transcendence.

Edited by Deviate (10/28/05 09:05 AM)

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Re: will any of us reach enlightenment? [Re: Deviate]
    #4862842 -

for swami: there is plenty of evidence enlightenment exists
There are plenty of self-proclaimed masters and thousands of 'feel-good' books, but have yet to see any evidence.

you had to guess, would you guess that there is a thing called enlightenment or not?
Or not.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: will any of us reach enlightenment? [Re: Swami]
    #4863210 -

There are plenty of self-proclaimed masters and thousands of 'feel-good' books, but have yet to see any evidence.

if the master's description describes my experience of reality would that not be evidence?

Or not.

really swami? then how do you explain different states of consciosuness? are none better then another? is a paranoid delusional neorotic no more enlightened then yourself?


some other thoughts (not necessarily directed at swami):

doesn't the existance of delusion necessesitate the existance of truth?


one definition of enlightenment is simply not giving permanency to the transient (for exampkle when something is happening you engage it and when it passes you cease to let it trouble you.) for those who don't believe in enlightenment, are you claiming this is not possible? even if you do make the extraordinary claim that this is not possible you must still concede that there are degrees to which it is possible. for example as a little kid you may have spent hours crying over a lost toy while as an adult you learned to move on once recognizing you have lost something. now even if you claim its not possible to reach full enlightenment (which doesn't seem reasonable) you still have to concede that enlightenment exists as an asymptote which can be approached. the closer you are to enlightenment the least amount of emotional stress you suffer over things which you cannot do anything about and the less time you waste thinking about them.

to those who say enlightenment is a dulusion, how do you know it's not who are you deluded? for example at a young age many of us believed in santa clause and indeed from simple observation it appeared to us that what our parents told us about santa claus was true since we recieved presents every christmas morning. now suppose one kid waited up all night and saw his parents leaving the presents under the tree. would it be reasonable to think he was delusional because he had claimed to have seen more than the other children? the only way to find out if he was telling the truth would be to walk the path he prescribed and see for yourself. if instead you sit around saying that the people who have found enlightenment are delusional you are dulusional because you fail to acknoweldge the fact that you don't really know.

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Re: will any of us reach enlightenment? [Re: Swami]
    #4863274 -

How does it feel to delve right back into a two year old debate? :smirk:

Seriously, though, I drank too much last night, haven't eaten in like a day, and didn't drink enough water last night, so please bear with me here. :lol:

Perusing this discussion once again, it seems apparent that we are revolving around a suspossed state of mind and questioning whether or not it is possible to attain (naturally, attainment has nothing to do with it, but you know how that whole thing goes - I guess we can refer to it as "transcending within it" or something :smirk:).

Naturally, we all have our own conception of what enlightenment is, and pretending that we are all discussing some common, objective, distinct state of existance isn't going to be beneficial to the blossoming of new understanding and perspective. The word "enlightenment" simply will not effectively perform any role as a reference to some identifiable aspect of our reality. It isn't like the moon, man. :grin:

I'm sure that we all have a concept of some higher state of mind, being, and existance. We may or may not see a path towards that, we simply might not feel we need to work towards anything like that. Hell, some of us simply feel the best way through life is to immerse ourselves in it and live it just as we do (certainly nothing wrong with that! :laugh:). Perhaps if we steer this discussion towards simply expressing our views in such a respect will better assist everyone involved in bringing more awareness to our own conceptions and practices related to this useless arrangement of letters. :lol:

:nut:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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