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OfflineDeviate
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Registered: 04/20/03
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questions for people who don't believe in enlightenment
    #4868222 - 10/30/05 04:01 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

since swami once again refuses to answer, i figured i would ask for other peoples's opinions because i find this an interesting topic.

do you believe that, as psychology says, certain individuals are more neurotic than others? if so then do you believe that, as psychology says, its possible to (in part, or fully) to resolve one's psychological problems and become better adjusted to life; to stop engaging in self defeating thoughts, feeling and behaviors? if so then what do you call the state (or process since it is ongoing) in which one has fully balanced their personal psychology with reality and fullfilled their highest potential? even if you think this is impossible you must still concede it exists in theory, as an asymptote which can be approached. maslow called it self actualization, the buddha called it enlightenment. i am not suggesting what buddha meant by enlightenment is exactly equivalent to maslow's self actualization (although they bear striking similarities) i am saying that each represents one man's view of what it meant for a person to reach their highest potential. so what is your view? decribe the characteristics of someone who has reached your definiton of enlightenment or become fully effective. what, to you, constitutes personal psychological growth and maturation?


Edited by Deviate (10/30/05 04:04 AM)


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Invisibledorkus
don't look back
Registered: 04/12/04
Posts: 1,511
Re: questions for people who don't believe in enlightenment [Re: Deviate]
    #4868233 - 10/30/05 04:08 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

i believe.


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OfflineProsgeopax
Jaded, yethopeful?

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 1,258
Loc: Appearing at a mall near ...
Last seen: 17 years, 1 month
Re: questions for people who don't believe in enlightenment [Re: Deviate] * 1
    #4868307 - 10/30/05 04:41 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Anyone can become more enlightened. I don't think it's very good to point to one person and say, "he's enlightened, I want to be like him." It would probably be more pragmatic to say, "he is more enlightened about some things than I am, and I would like to learn about those things as he has." I think this is more constructive instead of assuming that another fallible human is a 'guru' and has reached some sort of pinnacle from which he can climb no further.


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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Offlinejonathanseagull
Cool!
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Registered: 10/28/05
Posts: 993
Last seen: 9 years, 20 days
Re: questions for people who don't believe in enlightenment [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4868322 - 10/30/05 04:51 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

I also believe in enlightenment, but with levels. It's not just one day POOF you are enlightened. I see it almost as a ladder.

Enlightenment
Wisdom
Awareness
Intelligence

Although I realize those words carry different connotations for every person.


--------------------
Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: questions for people who don't believe in enlightenment [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4868359 - 10/30/05 05:04 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Prosgeopax said:
Anyone can become more enlightened. I don't think it's very good to point to one person and say, "he's enlightened, I want to be like him." It would probably be more pragmatic to say, "he is more enlightened about some things than I am, and I would like to learn about those things as he has." I think this is more constructive instead of assuming that another fallible human is a 'guru' and has reached some sort of pinnacle from which he can climb no further.




the only reguirement for being a guru is that the guru be "more enlightened" than the devotee. the only fucntion of the guru is to bring the devotee up to his level and once the devotee has reached that level he has no further need for the guru.


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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: questions for people who don't believe in enlightenment [Re: Deviate]
    #4868368 - 10/30/05 05:10 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

since swami once again refuses to answer

Not only is this trolling and serves NO philosophical purpose, but is also incorrect. The question was clearly answered.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: questions for people who don't believe in enlightenment [Re: jonathanseagull]
    #4868382 - 10/30/05 05:15 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Close. It is actually:

Smart
Wise
Aware
Mature
Intelligent


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineDeviate
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Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 7 years, 4 months
Re: questions for people who don't believe in enlightenment [Re: Swami]
    #4868396 - 10/30/05 05:19 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
since swami once again refuses to answer

Not only is this trolling and serves NO philosophical purpose, but is also incorrect. The question was clearly answered.




well then i apoligize, could you kindly point me to where it was cleary answered?


Edited by Deviate (10/30/05 05:19 AM)


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OfflineProsgeopax
Jaded, yethopeful?

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 1,258
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Re: questions for people who don't believe in enlightenment [Re: Deviate]
    #4868401 - 10/30/05 05:20 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

The problem with considering someone a guru, is that many people see gurus as being better persons and treat them as if their enlightenment in certain areas automatically transfers to other areas. The whole idea of being a 'devotee' is anathema to the quest for truth and hence, enlightenment. For this reason I would never consider anyone to be a guru, but would instead seek guidance from more advanced students in certain subjects. We are better served by mentors, as a mentor is someone willing to help you along until you too can be in a similar position, but a guru is someone you will follow ardently and usually unquestioningly.


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
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Registered: 07/21/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
Re: questions for people who don't believe in enlightenment [Re: Deviate]
    #4868411 - 10/30/05 05:25 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

The closest I can come to answering your question is that I think self actualization is an ongoing process. I think one continues to enlighten themselves in areas and that is an ongoing process as well.

I see no end to either and believe no one who says they are fully self actualized or fully enlightened of all.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
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Re: questions for people who don't believe in enlightenment [Re: Deviate]
    #4868413 - 10/30/05 05:25 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

The part about no evidence for such a state exists. Same reason I disavow almost all paranormal claims.

As to your opening statement, it is unlikely that lobsters have neuroses (see: "Lobstradamus - the Crushed Asian who Saw the Future"), yet I doubt few people view them as enlightened masters.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineDeviate
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Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 7 years, 4 months
Re: questions for people who don't believe in enlightenment [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4868425 - 10/30/05 05:30 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
The closest I can come to answering your question is that I think self actualization is an ongoing process. I think one continues to enlighten themselves in areas and that is an ongoing process as well.

I see no end to either and believe no one who says they are fully self actualized or fully enlightened of all.




the way i see it, the process itself is the end. becomming fully immersed in the process so that at each moment you are more than you were at the moment before and never stopping to look back or clinging to the past. as you recognize a mistake you correct it and move on.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: questions for people who don't believe in enlightenment [Re: Swami]
    #4868459 - 10/30/05 05:43 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
The part about no evidence for such a state exists. Same reason I disavow almost all paranormal claims.

As to your opening statement, it is unlikely that lobsters have neuroses (see: "Lobstradamus - the Crushed Asian who Saw the Future"), yet I doubt few people view them as enlightened masters.




huh? i am asking for your view of the human psyche, not whether any specific state exists. is self improvement possible? if so what constitutes self improvement? what is the aim? whatever it aims toward would be your equivalent of maslow's self actualization whether you believe or don't believe that anyone has ever reached it. do you see what i am saying? it is an asymptote.

as for lobsters, a lobster isn't a human so although it may not have neuroses it lacks many abilities that a human does have.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/22/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: questions for people who don't believe in enlightenment [Re: Deviate]
    #4868483 - 10/30/05 05:52 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Do you mean enlightenment in western or eastern context?


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OfflineDeviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 7 years, 4 months
Re: questions for people who don't believe in enlightenment [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #4868517 - 10/30/05 06:00 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

well in the east enlightenment is the asymptote people strive toward, i am saying for people who don't like this asymptote to provide their explanation of what constitues the highest potential for an individual's psychology. and this can describe a process or way of living, not some final absolute stste. for example maslow describes self actualized people as being motivated to continually grow and become more, yet the fact that they dont know everything doesn't mean they aren't self actulized. its their approach.


Edited by Deviate (10/30/05 06:03 AM)


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Registered: 07/21/04
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Re: questions for people who don't believe in enlightenment [Re: Deviate]
    #4868530 - 10/30/05 06:04 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
The closest I can come to answering your question is that I think self actualization is an ongoing process. I think one continues to enlighten themselves in areas and that is an ongoing process as well.

I see no end to either and believe no one who says they are fully self actualized or fully enlightened of all.




the way i see it, the process itself is the end. becoming fully immersed in the process so that at each moment you are more than you were at the moment before and never stopping to look back or clinging to the past. as you recognize a mistake you correct it and move on.




If you take it that way, ones place in enlightenment is or may be nowhere near another's so what does it really mean?

Saying I am enlightened means what to you? I don't get the word at all.

I can say, I am enlightened about how to use the emoticons. I think it can be used for a limited set of information to be gained. It be used to convey your level of completed knowledge in an area that has an end to what can be known about it.

Saying I am in the process of enlightening myself to more at least says something. Like I said, I see no end to the process of self actualization so using the word enlightened or self actualized to me is BS. It would be valid if there were actual limits to self knowledge. I don't believe there are and have no reason to.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Registered: 04/22/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: questions for people who don't believe in enlightenment [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4868538 - 10/30/05 06:07 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Enlightenment, in the Western sense, is equivelent to being educated.
Admittly, I don't know nearly enough about Eastern thought, but enlightenment seems to be more of a spiritual thing when used in Oriental context.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: questions for people who don't believe in enlightenment [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4868573 - 10/30/05 06:15 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)


If you take it that way, ones place in enlightenment is or may be nowhere near another's so what does it really mean?

Saying I am enlightened means what to you? I don't get the word at all.

I can say, I am enlightened about how to use the emoticons. I think it can be used for a limited set of information to be gained. It be used to convey your level of completed knowledge in an area that has an end to what can be known about it.

Saying I am in the process of enlightening myself to more at least says something. Like I said, I see no end to the process of self actualization so using the word enlightened or self actualized to me is BS. It would be valid if there were actual limits to self knowledge. I don't believe there are and have no reason to.



to me it means youve stopped engaging in self defeating thoughts, feelings and actions so that you are free to flow with the process of self actulization. once you are fully immersed in the flow you are self actualizatized. visusalize it like a river. the river carries everyone along but some people aren't fully aware of how they relate to the river so they often struggle against the flow. they are still growing and learning of course but they are not self actualized because they are not one with the river. self actualized people on the other hand simply flow with the river. they are also growing and learning but they are doing at the same pace of the river. imagine their bodies fully relaxed so they are entirely directed by the current.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: questions for people who don't believe in enlightenment [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #4868580 - 10/30/05 06:17 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
Enlightenment, in the Western sense, is equivelent to being educated.
Admittly, I don't know nearly enough about Eastern thought, but enlightenment seems to be more of a spiritual thing when used in Oriental context.




yes that's why i compared it to self actulization. its not a matter of how much information you have aquired.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: questions for people who don't believe in enlightenment [Re: Deviate]
    #4868631 - 10/30/05 06:26 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

I can't argue with that because it's a subjective/personal meaning of the word to you.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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