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Offlinedeff
mysticlove
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Re: Projection of the Enlightened? [Re: eve69]
    #4468505 - 07/29/05 07:25 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

"you are thinking too hard.
everybody is trying to think too hard about this
we are like flies buzzing around a piece of shit
our posts are fragile and goofy trajectories left in the air as we follow the scents and land for a taste"

Agreed, but how does one leave a 'trail image' for the flying ones of what a landed fly will see?


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Projection of the Enlightened? [Re: Ravus]
    #4469509 - 07/29/05 11:22 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
Why is life suffering? To my knowledge, I've never seen a very good answer from Buddhism- they state the obvious, that life is filled with suffering, but simply stop at that observation. However, if we look at science and evolution, life is suffering because we've evolved to feel suffering whenever something goes wrong- and life is continuously going wrong. All components of suffering, whether they be pain or depression or loss, are all warning signals, saying that something is
wrong, something has gone wrong or some thing's about to go wrong.

If we actually stopped suffering, we would devolve. We'd slide back down, slowly and surely, into something lower, something with less emotions and less experience. Our personalities are forged in fire, not in room temperature water.



With this in mind, suffering is itself a way to help our survival. Life is suffering, I agree, but the cessation of suffering is even worse. Suffering makes us greater, truly; and I say this not as a martyr, but as someone who has overcome suffering time and time again, as I'm sure all of us have here. If we did not suffer, how would we evolve? If we did not suffer, how would we relate to others? For if life is suffering, then bonds are forged from pain- and while we wish for the cessation of suffering, there's a reason we don't receive it.

Thinking this, I looked back on the Buddhist's statement of the "ultimate goal", and rejoiced, knowing that the "ultimate goal" would indeed be an ultimate failure. My motto in life is that suffering makes me greater; without suffering, I know I would be something less than human. The Buddha's only humanity had come from his past suffering, his personality had been forged in his repeated failures to achieve Nirvana. Whether he actually achieved Nirvana (if such a thing exists) or faked it in the end, I do not know, but as a safety precaution I'm staying far away from the eightfold path.





Ravus, you need to do some more studying, especially on the core teachings of Buddhism, known as the Four Noble Truths. The first two noble truths clearly illustrate how and why we suffer. I suggest that anyone who does not fully understand this, and yet agrees with Ravus's view of Buddhism, please read this...

http://www.buddhanet.net/4noble.htm

You are saying that one becomes great by "overcoming" suffering, not through the actual suffering itself. When you put your hand in fire, and burn yourself, you learn a very valuable lesson, not to do that again. All beings want to be happy, and not a single sentient being wants to suffer. Suffering is not something we need in our lives, because its counterproductive to our happiness and peace of mind, which we all have the potential to discover. It seems that we've all caught ourselves in a cycle of perpetually putting our hands back into the fire again and again. This is not evolution, and if it is, what are we evolving towards? More war, further suffering, less peace?

Suffering is caused by our ignorance, and so like a moth to the flame, we cause our suffering through the thinking mind that looks outward with desire. For our minds to truly evolve, we must unlearn this tendency to ignorance and distraction. The first noble truth points to the metaphorical flame and says "Look you are suffering", and the second truth says "Look this is how you are harming yourself, by being attracted, and flying into this flame". The third truth says "This is how you can overcome your tendencies to fly into this flame", and the fourth noble truth says " Once this is done, there is nothing but Bliss and peace". Its not that its the "Ultimate Goal" its just that this is how our real nature is, this is how we are, but when we don't notice this due to our ignorance, we burn in the flame of suffering over and over again, needlessly.

If we stopped suffering, we not only evolve more into how we really are, but we realize the limitless potential of our minds, and as a result are free because we are no longer distracted and clouded by our desires, delusions and attachments. Instead we see the sky-like nature of mind (which is indivisible from the nature of all phenomena) clearly. This is the real evolution. How we slide down, is when out of ignorance of our real nature, we strengthen our minds habitual tendency to search outside continually for something else, Some object of desire that we mistakenly think will bring us permenant happiness, thus furthering and perpetuating the cycle of desire and suffering, cause and effect. This is a very basic explanation.

The essence of the Buddha's message in the first turning of the Wheel of the Dharma is that anyone with a dualistic mind suffers. The dualistic mind entertains selfish emotions, creates problems, has worries, hope, fear and pain. Dualistic mind seems to have built-in suffering. To overcome this condition we need two things, intelligence/wisdom and compassion. Our natural state is beyond the temporary defilements of dualistic mind. The Buddha demonstrated this.


Edited by Sinbad (07/30/05 12:09 AM)


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Projection of the Enlightened? [Re: Sinbad]
    #4470780 - 07/30/05 03:29 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

All beings want to be happy, and not a single sentient being wants to suffer.




What matters happiness? Does happiness lead to knowledge or greatness? What kind of hedonistic faith says that all beings want to be happy?

Quote:

Suffering is not something we need in our lives, because its counterproductive to our happiness and peace of mind, which we all have the potential to discover.




Happiness and peace of mind are simply emotions created by evolution to signal when something is going wrong. Why put them on some sort of pedestal? Just because something is counterproductive to happiness and peace of mind, it does not mean that it should be avoided if it makes us greater.

Quote:

It seems that we've all caught ourselves in a cycle of perpetually putting our hands back into the fire again and again.




Interesting analogy, but is it true? The causes of suffering are so diverse, so filled in any path to greatness we take, that really suffering just becomes like trees on the path, telling us when we're giong in the wrong direction. Yet these trees advance our direction on the path nonetheless; they tell us when we're straying, and by turning away and overcoming the suffering we continue our way to greatness.

Quote:

Suffering is caused by our ignorance, and so like a moth to the flame, we cause our suffering through the thinking mind that looks outward with desire. For our minds to truly evolve, we must unlearn this tendency to ignorance and distraction.




Suffering is caused by ignorance? So if an atheist scientist is kidnapped by fundamentalist Christians, sees his whole family slaughtered in front of his eyes, and is then burned alive, all the suffering is caused by his "ignorance"? What kind of sick faith would say that?

Desire is natural. Desire for our loved ones to live, desire for our lives to be healthy and happy, these are essential aspects to the human mind that I would not unlearn for the world. Suffering and desire are not evil or bad, they are our aids, they are the ancient tools handed to us by natural selection in this dog-eat-dog world.

Quote:

The first noble truth points to the metaphorical flame and says "Look you are suffering", and the second truth says "Look this is how you are harming yourself, by being attracted, and flying into this flame". The third truth says "This is how you can overcome your tendencies to fly into this flame", and the fourth noble truth says " Once this is done, there is nothing but Bliss and peace"




Yet how many times are we pushed into the flame by situations of the world? Whether by wind or water, the entire situation surrounding us will push us into suffering against our will time and time again, through either time's slow decay on everything we love or the malice others pose towards us. Yet is it really the flame that is bad? Suffering is an emotion that comes from within; it is simply warning us of the circumstances that pushed us towards suffering in the first place. And this, I believe, is what the Buddha overlooked.

As for the last comment, how many times have bliss and peace helped evolution? How often do bliss and peace advance science or knowledge? Someone could live a life of just meditating in bliss and peace, and yet I would consider them a failure for contributing nothing in their enlightened stupor. How many times do you hear of Buddhists creating great discoveries and inventions, after all?

Quote:

If we stopped suffering, we not only evolve more into how we really are, but we realize the limitless potential of our minds




:rolleyes:

Limitless potential of our minds? That's ridiculous; our minds are more limited than any fool would admit. We are simply human, and have evolved minds that continue our survival; nothing more, nothing less. To say we are limitless is to say we are infinite, and that is wishful thinking beyond all other wishful thinking.

As for the comment itself, I doubt it; we truely learn who we are in the hardest times. When we're on the last leg of our existence, then do we learn where our inner strength resides, not when we're completely relaxed and blissful in meditation.

Quote:

and as a result are free because we are no longer distracted and clouded by our desires, delusions and attachments.




You say that like it's a bad thing. But from my point of view, these are philosophical prejudices; there is no "clouding" of the mind, there is simply survival and expansion of the mind and lack thereof. If desires and attachments consume us, drive us into being great artists and writers and scientists, then we become freer through our greatness than any Buddha than walked before us.

Quote:

How we slide down, is when out of ignorance of our real nature, we strengthen our minds habitual tendency to search outside continually for something else, Some object of desire that we mistakenly think will bring us permenant happiness, thus furthering and perpetuating the cycle of desire and suffering, cause and effect. This is a very basic explanation.




Very basic, and very wrong. What is our "real nature"? We are constantly in flux, constantly dying and changing and evolving. We search for something else, not out of despair, but because the mind looks for more tools simply to aid its survival, more knives to carve the wood of nature into something useful for humanity. We may get a few cuts in the process, but in the end this is all that matters; our searching is what drives us. When the searching stops, what more will the person do?

Quote:


The essence of the Buddha's message in the first turning of the Wheel of the Dharma is that anyone with a dualistic mind suffers. The dualistic mind entertains selfish emotions, creates problems, has worries, hope, fear and pain.




This tries to appeal to the most primal mind, but it overlooks the purpose of the mind itself. Selfish emotions? All emotions are selfish; they seek only to aid our survival. Natural selection didn't build us to be gods, it built us to be animals. Advanced we may be, but we are still fighting for our survival like any other animal on this planet, and the tools of emotions, of hope, of fear and pain, all of these have aided humanity countless times, and continue to aid humanity everyday. They do cause problems from time to time, but just like the way humanity learned to tame fire, the burns are worth it for the massive power and enhancement to our survival it gives us.

Quote:

Dualistic mind seems to have built-in suffering. To overcome this condition we need two things, intelligence/wisdom and compassion. Our natural state is beyond the temporary defilements of dualistic mind. The Buddha demonstrated this.




Looking at it from the point of Darwinism, this makes no sense. The Buddha had too many leaps of faith and not enough logic, not enough sense of what is important to our survival. He put too much value into happiness, while making the basic (and flawed) assumption that suffering is a hindrance to our survival, when really suffering is a massive aid to it. Duality only exists in human perception, and wisdom and compassion are only useful in the sense that they can aid our survival. But to give up the warning systems we've developed over hundreds of millions of years simply to try to grasp some hermit's delusions on "permanent happiness" seems to be insanity and hedonism at its best.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Projection of the Enlightened? [Re: Ravus]
    #4472176 - 07/30/05 08:46 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
What matters happiness? Does happiness lead to knowledge or greatness? What kind of hedonistic faith says that all beings want to be happy?




It is more able to lead to knowledge or greatness, as opposed to someone who is paranoid and is physically trembling as a result of mental suffering. :lol: A mind that functions properly is more capable of survival than one that is inflicting negativity on itself and struggling with itself.  :smirk:

Quote:


Happiness and peace of mind are simply emotions created by evolution to signal when something is going wrong. Why put them on some sort of pedestal? Just because something is counterproductive to happiness and peace of mind, it does not mean that it should be avoided if it makes us greater.




First off, happiness and peace of mind aren't "simply emotions", they are a state of being. Inner peace isn't an emotion, its a totality of experience. Someone operating from such a center is more capable of being aware of its surroundings and is more capable of continuing to survive, obviously. A being who is inflicting suffering upon itself and struggling with itself mentally is not completely open to its experience of reality, which renders it less able to survive.

Why don't you define suffering for us, eh? Define the term suffering in the manner in which you are referring to it. Lay it on us.

Quote:

Interesting analogy, but is it true? The causes of suffering are so diverse, so filled in any path to greatness we take, that really suffering just becomes like trees on the path, telling us when we're giong in the wrong direction. Yet these trees advance our direction on the path nonetheless; they tell us when we're straying, and by turning away and overcoming the suffering we continue our way to greatness.




The mind is what defines different aspects of reality as causing suffering, and it is also that which actually inflicts suffering upon itself. The experience of suffering does not actually reflect any trait that is observable in one's environment - reality exists entirely without any inherent value or meaning.

So, then, why is suffering necessary or even beneficial? Suffering, of course, is simply the experience of negative emotion as a result of the mind disagreeing with an aspect of reality. What is the point of inflicting suffering upon oneself, overcoming it, when one simply doesn't have to create suffering for oneself in the first place? Why seperate oneself from reality?

Quote:


Suffering is caused by ignorance? So if an atheist scientist is kidnapped by fundamentalist Christians, sees his whole family slaughtered in front of his eyes, and is then burned alive, all the suffering is caused by his "ignorance"? What kind of sick faith would say that?




It is indeed caused by ignorance. The atheist does not understand the manner in which his mind operates, how it disagrees with the undeniable truth of reality, that his family has been slaughtered in front of his kidnapped eyes, and is then burned alive, and how it therefore forces suffering upon himself. He doesn't understand that the experience of this suffering is needless and does not serve him in any beneficial manner.

He was kidnapped and served as witness to his family's slaughter. This is simply the undeniable truth of the way in which reality unfolded. What aspect of this scenario demands that he inflicts suffering upon himself? Being burnt alive would certainly be full of physical pain, but does it need to be full of mental suffering? I'd think that the pain would be worse enough as it was... :laugh:

Quote:


Desire is natural. Desire for our loved ones to live, desire for our lives to be healthy and happy, these are essential aspects to the human mind that I would not unlearn for the world.




Desire is fine as long as it is simple preference. Any attachment to seeing your desire fufilled is the cause of suffering. If reality doesn't unfold in a manner that you see fit, are you going to punish yourself as a result? :lol:

Quote:


Suffering and desire are not evil or bad, they are our aids, they are the ancient tools handed to us by natural selection in this dog-eat-dog world.




Ancient tools that were intended for and useful at ensuring that we acted in a life threatening situation, with either a flight or fight response. Any other situation does not need this mechanism to be applied, and applying it only seperates one from their experience and direct knowing of reality, which, consequently, makes one less capable of continuing to survive. :grin:

Quote:


Yet how many times are we pushed into the flame by situations of the world? Whether by wind or water, the entire situation surrounding us will push us into suffering against our will time and time again




Wrong! The entire situation surrounding us does absolutely nothing to push ourselves into the flame. The external world has nothing on us in this respect. It is only your mind that identifies different aspects of our surroundings, associates it with some meaning, does not agree that it is an aspect of reality that we should be present in our experience (although it is and that may or may not be within our control - even if it is, we are free to act, but our peace of mind should not be put at stake), and then inflicts suffering upon itself. You seem to not understand the nature of the mechanism that creates suffering. The fact that you think suffering arises from your external environment demonstrates this, I think that, scientifically speaking, you are incorrect. :smirk:

Quote:


Yet is it really the flame that is bad? Suffering is an emotion that comes from within; it is simply warning us of the circumstances that pushed us towards suffering in the first place. And this, I believe, is what the Buddha overlooked.




And I believe that it is you that overlooked that the flame isn't bad, just that it is unnecessary to be retarded enough to continously burn your fucking flesh on it! :lol: If you were conscious enough of reality, you wouldn't, so I guess it isn't your fault. :wink:

Quote:


As for the last comment, how many times have bliss and peace helped evolution? How often do bliss and peace advance science or knowledge?




Hhm.... probably the fact that someone experiencing bliss and peace is more free to act in any manner that will benefit their continued survival, considering the fact that they would not be in the midst of an awareness-draining, reality-seperating struggle with themselves. Their freedom to take action isn't limited by some limited mechanism.

Quote:


Someone could live a life of just meditating in bliss and peace, and yet I would consider them a failure for contributing nothing in their enlightened stupor. How many times do you hear of Buddhists creating great discoveries and inventions, after all?




:lol: Ravus passes judgement on humankind. I'm sure these people would feel sorry that they didn't meet your expectations of how they should live their life. :lol:

Quote:


Limitless potential of our minds? That's ridiculous; our minds are more limited than any fool would admit. We are simply human, and have evolved minds that continue our survival; nothing more, nothing less.




Which is why mankind involves itself with so many abstractions that go beyond simple survival, right? :rolleyes: Yes, life is simply about survival, nothing more, nothing less, survival is so important that we put absolutely no focus on what it is that is surviving or focus on our experience of the very life that we are striving to continue. :lol: I think any fool would admit that this is quite the statement to make. :grin:

Quote:


As for the comment itself, I doubt it; we truely learn who we are in the hardest times. When we're on the last leg of our existence, then do we learn where our inner strength resides, not when we're completely relaxed and blissful in meditation.




Yes, we truly know who we are when our mind is being strangled by an abstract struggle that we create for no purpose. :rolleyes: I think it remains obvious to be seen that one who is existing in a state of awareness and consciousness that is not being limited by unnecessary aspects of the mind is more fit to be aware of themselves and their environment. :shocked:

Quote:


You say that like it's a bad thing. But from my point of view, these are philosophical prejudices; there is no "clouding" of the mind, there is simply survival and expansion of the mind and lack thereof. If desires and attachments consume us, drive us into being great artists and writers and scientists, then we become freer through our greatness than any Buddha than walked before us.




Anything that one concerns themselves with uses consciousness. There is nothing wrong with having preferences and pursuing them, absolutely nothing wrong with leading an active life (although we aren't so ignorant to think that external roles are always more important than internal states of existance). But any attachment to any aspect of reality sets us up for failure. Reality is never going to conform to our expectations and demands, no matter how much control we exert over our environment (and struggling with our environment to conform it to us is simply ignornant and hellish). Any experience of suffering that we inflict on ourselves as a simple result of the manner in which reality has unfolded only serves to seperate ourselves from that very ability to pursue our preferences and lead an active life. This isn't inaccessible logic here. :lol:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Registered: 04/22/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: Projection of the Enlightened? [Re: Ravus]
    #4472347 - 07/30/05 09:28 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
What matters happiness? Does happiness lead to knowledge or greatness? What kind of hedonistic faith says that all beings want to be happy?




Why is 'knowledge' or 'greatness' important?
What is the use of 'knowledge' or 'greatness' if it does not increase happiness?


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Projection of the Enlightened? [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #4472462 - 07/30/05 09:49 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
Why is 'knowledge' or 'greatness' important?
What is the use of 'knowledge' or 'greatness' if it does not increase happiness?




The survival of unhappy beings who have a negative experience of life; insane beings who wish to propagate their negative experience and inflict it on future generations, duh! :rolleyes: :lol:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Registered: 04/22/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: Projection of the Enlightened? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4472491 - 07/30/05 09:54 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
Why is 'knowledge' or 'greatness' important?
What is the use of 'knowledge' or 'greatness' if it does not increase happiness?




The survival of unhappy beings who have a negative experience of life; insane beings who wish to propagate their negative experience and inflict it on future generations, duh! :rolleyes: :lol:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:




Oh.

And another thing.... whats all this 'greatness' talk? What is 'greatness'?


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Projection of the Enlightened? [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #4472520 - 07/30/05 10:01 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
And another thing.... whats all this 'greatness' talk? What is 'greatness'?




To fufill the standards of what some dude feels we should be. Its usually the result of thinking that some state of existance is better than another, but its largely unsubstansiated because there is no universal judgement by which to base it on.

It's like saying that one band is better than another because their musikk is more complex or because they have more fans, or its like saying that a doctor is better than a stocker because they "accomplish more", or that they "help our race survive to a greater degree", or some bullshit. Apparently we have to obtain a status symbol that meets the requirements of someone else. :lol:

Essentially, its an expectation and a demand that one person places on reality. Its too bad that reality could care less about what is demanded of it and will unfold as it naturally will, and that reality has no standards that it expects us to fufill. :smirk: What is really hilarious is when reality unfolds in a manner that differs from how one individual expects it to unfold, and then they punish themselves as a result. :lol:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/22/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: Projection of the Enlightened? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4472534 - 07/30/05 10:03 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I thought it was synonymous with big.  :shrug:


Edited by MushmanTheManic (07/30/05 10:04 AM)


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