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OfflineNomad
Mad Robot

Registered: 04/30/02
Posts: 422
Last seen: 8 years, 11 months
Enlightenment: The fast Way.
    #700258 - 06/25/02 12:48 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

But just what IS the shortest way to enlightenment? If this is a heretical question for you, well, great. As they say in Zen: "Enlightenment will take you twenty years, or, if you are in a hurry, thirty years." It's easy, then. The shortest way is not to hurry. So here I am, and I'm completely relaxed. I don't care about enlightenment. I could be enlightened tomorrow or in 10 000 years, I don't care. It doesn't matter. Really.

But what next? Tantra, they say, is a fast way. Sex, then. But what is an orgasm except the most powerful drug experience your body can experience without drugs?

Is it, then, drugs? Are drugs the fast way to enlightenment?

Or, for that matter, what is the actual difference between the gradual enlightenment in Yoga and the sudden enlightenment in Zen? Searching for the short way, I'll choose Zen. So I sit down and watch my breath, and it just plain sucks. I mean, the whole point, in my limited understanding, is to realize that there is no self except the universe. But - while I'm usually quite good at getting absorbed into whatever I do - when I'm watching my breath, I feel more divided than before, divided into that which watches and that which is watched, and it feels quite wrong. But then there's another Zen technique, and it is about just sitting like a buddha and doing nothing, just getting absorbed into the universe. And I tried it, and it's the hardest thing I've ever tried in my life.

Except, of course, when on drugs. While tripping, it is surprisingly easy to get sucked into just about anything. So maybe that's it. Just sitting cross-legged and bemushroomed under a Bodhi-tree, merging with the universe. Is it that?

Well, I don't know. What do you think? The subject is:

Suppose I want to be enlightened tomorrow, then what's up for me today?

Oh, and here's a quote.

"When I was once visited by a Chinese Zen man, I had my little daughter with me, and he said to her, 'You know, once upon a time, there was a man who kept a very small goose in a bottle. A gosling. And it began to grow larger and larger until he couldn't get it out of the bottle. Now, he didn't want to break the bottle, and he didn't want to hurt the goose, so what should he do?' And she said immediately, 'Just break the bottle.' He turned to me and he said 'You see, they always get it when they're under seven.' " - Alan Watts, "The Value of Psychotic Experience"


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Enlightenment: The fast Way. [Re: Nomad]
    #700312 - 06/25/02 01:04 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Maybe you should just start with a good understanding of what enlightenment really means.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Offline11polakie11
PeripheralCustodian

Registered: 06/14/02
Posts: 112
Loc: G-Ville FLA
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
Re: Enlightenment: The fast Way. [Re: Sclorch]
    #700341 - 06/25/02 01:14 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

hi there
well, why do you want enlightenemnt so fast? figure that out first, what is your point about it. secondly, tantra isn't about using genitalia to acheive enlightenment, its a philosophy not about acheiving the best orgasm ever, that doesn't mean sex isn't involved - my point is this, if you want enlightenment to escape your problems or to never feel "bad' again, then enlightenemnt will remain something searched for but never found - another misconception is that enlightnement must be sought out, run towards or found "elswhere"
i'd like to suggest a book for you to read, maybe it will help you or not. "The Accidental Buddhist" - should be able to find it amazon no problem. Something I am learning and want to share from "Be here now" by baba ram dass, beware of to much cleverness.

adam


--------------------
-i am waiting for my boyfriend/compainion-
_I wish i were Aeon Flux_


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Anonymous

Re: Enlightenment: The fast Way. [Re: Nomad]
    #700354 - 06/25/02 01:17 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

What is enlightenment? Is it a conscious state that once acheived leaves no chance of expanding your mind or improving you thought processes?

How will you know when you've reached such a state? Who would be so conceited as to assume themselves enlightened?

It would seem to me that having reached such a state that I would be confronted with a perpetual state of boredom. I prefer to go the way of continous improvement.


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Anonymous

Re: Enlightenment: The fast Way. [Re: ]
    #700816 - 06/25/02 03:50 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

What is enlightenment? Is it a conscious state that once acheived leaves no chance of expanding your mind or improving you thought processes?

I think of enlightenment as having achieved a state of consciousness that does not have worry over the material world, and focuses on the spiritual. Of course there is more to learn! It is just the beginning of the spiritual world in full focus, so there is much to accomplish and figure out. It doesn't mean you know everything there is to know.. you have just learned the lessons of the physical world and moved on to a different level of focusing. A new playground.


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Enlightenment: The fast Way. [Re: ]
    #701896 - 06/25/02 10:37 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

I think of enlightenment as having achieved a state of consciousness that does not have worry over the material world, and focuses on the spiritual.

Because we're all just spirits floating around in flesh shells, right?
Funk that! Material world... spiritual world... two sides of the same coin, so why would an enlightened person ignore the other half of reality?
Answer: They wouldn't.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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OfflineNomad
Mad Robot

Registered: 04/30/02
Posts: 422
Last seen: 8 years, 11 months
Re: Enlightenment: The fast Way. [Re: Sclorch]
    #701999 - 06/26/02 12:10 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Maybe you should just start with a good understanding of what enlightenment really means.

If this is a suggestion, I think that my intellectual understanding of enlightenment is quite good. It's just that I'm lacking the actual experience of Awakening, and that's what it is all about.

Maybe you should just start with a good understanding of what enlightenment really means.

If this implies that you think that something about my understanding of enlightenment is wrong, then don't hold it back! I sure as hell would like to know.


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OfflineNomad
Mad Robot

Registered: 04/30/02
Posts: 422
Last seen: 8 years, 11 months
Re: Enlightenment: The fast Way. [Re: 11polakie11]
    #702004 - 06/26/02 12:20 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

well, why do you want enlightenemnt so fast?

As I said, I don't necessarily "want" it so fast, since "wanting" something would get me attached and actually push it away from me. So the question is mere intellectual curiosity: If there is at least one way to enlightenment, then by a simple logical implication there has to be a shortest way. So what is it?

figure that out first, what is your point about it.

I guess I'd like to enjoy the sense of freedom which is achieved after the illusion of self is dropped.

secondly, tantra isn't about using genitalia to acheive enlightenment, its a philosophy not about acheiving the best orgasm ever, that doesn't mean sex isn't involved

I understand that Tantra is not about having the best orgasm ever, but it's about using sexual arousal as a means to achieve changes in consciousness, and isn't there a similiarity to drug experiences somewhere?

Thanks for the book suggestion! I'll check it out.


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OfflineNomad
Mad Robot

Registered: 04/30/02
Posts: 422
Last seen: 8 years, 11 months
Re: Enlightenment: The fast Way. [Re: ]
    #702010 - 06/26/02 12:29 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

What is enlightenment? Is it a conscious state that once acheived leaves no chance of expanding your mind or improving you thought processes?

No, enlightenment is not a goal in itself. It is something which helps you to live life. It means that, through understanding the nature of consciousness, you would realize that there is no fixed self inside of you, but that you and the universe are in a constant flux. To borrow a metaphor by Alan Watts, we tend to think of ourselves as having "come" to this world, when, truly, the world brought us into existance like an apple-tree bearing an apple. So if you are an apple, it is because the universe is an apple-tree, not because the quality of an apple is something inside of you. Being enlightened would mean that there is no necessity to "improve your thoughts", as you are complete in every moment. You could, of course, go on with self-improvement if you wanted to, but you would do it with a different quality... you wouldn't be attached to it, you would do it the same way like breathing or eating, you would do it simply because breathing, eating and acting is what human beings do.

How will you know when you've reached such a state? Who would be so conceited as to assume themselves enlightened?

Someone who is enlightened wouldn't refer to himself as enlightened. But why should we act like someone who is enlightened? What is the point of faking something?


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OfflineNomad
Mad Robot

Registered: 04/30/02
Posts: 422
Last seen: 8 years, 11 months
Re: Enlightenment: The fast Way. [Re: ]
    #702011 - 06/26/02 12:30 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

I think of enlightenment as having achieved a state of consciousness that does not have worry over the material world, and focuses on the spiritual.

How would you achieve that as fast as possible?


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OfflineMAIA
World-BridgerKartikeya (DftS)
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Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 7,275
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Last seen: 6 months, 11 days
Re: Enlightenment: The fast Way. [Re: Nomad]
    #702110 - 06/26/02 03:09 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Fastest way is being alone close to death, the whole world has a different meaning and if you're able to survive and apply what you've learned, everything you do will be done with much more confidence and success because you've seen the true path of life and the enlightment it gives will serve you till the end.
It happened to me already some years ago, it's not pleasent to deal with death for half a year, but it changed the way i see things, i feel more confident and my personality has got very strong, something i didn't have before, i see life everywhere and it makes me happy .

Peace,
MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
Son of Uncle Meat
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/06/02
Posts: 19,058
Loc: Toronto Canada
Re: Enlightenment: The fast Way. [Re: Nomad]
    #702124 - 06/26/02 03:28 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

If you can find it, read "The Lazy man's guide to enlightenment" by Thaddeus Golas.......first published in 1971. A slender read at 80 pages(for REALLY lazy people like myself).....a very fun book for those of us who are in no special hurry to become enlightened and who choose to enjoy every step of the way


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"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"



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Invisiblethe_Landotter
Gnostic Chaoist

Registered: 05/24/02
Posts: 340
Loc: R'lyeh
Re: Enlightenment: The fast Way. [Re: MAIA]
    #702221 - 06/26/02 06:38 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

>Fastest way is being alone close to death, the whole world has a different
>meaning and if you're able to survive and apply what you've learned, everything
>you do will be done with much more confidence and success because you've seen
>the true path of life and the enlightment it gives will serve you till the end.

I have to agree with Maia here. 6 months or 6 years or 6 seconds ... being close to death is a v. quick route to your destination. Like the Buddhist practice of meditating on decay and corruption. It all comes clear frighteningly fast...

My recommendations:

- being nearly knocked off a 300 foot high railway trestle by a speeding train
- almost drowning
- driving all day to reach your mom before she dies from cancer, only to get there too late and then sitting alone quietly by her body for a few hours


the Landotter


--------------------
* * * * * * * * * *
Read the Landotter's Mystical Journey Journal


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Invisiblemr crisper
.

Registered: 07/25/00
Posts: 928
Re: Enlightenment: The fast Way. [Re: the_Landotter]
    #702246 - 06/26/02 07:08 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

My recommendation - ride a 1000cc sports bike in tokyo traffic, nde's are calculated at a per minute rate.

seriously tho, the one about your ma is saddening, must've been a hard day for you.


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OfflineTypingwords
Stranger

Registered: 08/04/01
Posts: 171
Loc: seattle-ish area, WA
Last seen: 3 years, 7 months
Re: Enlightenment: The fast Way. [Re: mr crisper]
    #703289 - 06/26/02 06:30 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Or you can try and purposely have a fake "near death experience" while on drugs, which is technically the safer route. Or some day it might just happen to you like it did to me.

THe last time I did mushrooms I was driving for hours in a car and I thought we had all died in an accident. When they finally began to wear off I realized I was not dead and I became "enlightened". I experienced a profound understanding of life and the universe. This was the most horrifying and most amazing day of my life. Then I recently tried salvia for the first time and the bad trip picked up right where it left off! Even though I wasn't even thinking about it. 2nd try with salvia, same thing happened. NOw I'm afraid I'll never get out of this bad trip. But i'm going to keep going back again trying to fight it. Salvia is a good drug for this because the effects last only a few minutes.

Of course this technique has it's dangers too though. For instance, when I was in the car I almost jumped out on the freeway because I thought I was already dead, but that I had to kill myself again so my soul would accept the fact that I died and then I could go to "my heaven"


--------------------
everything everyone everywhere. forever and ever and ever.


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Enlightenment: BOR-RING [Re: Typingwords]
    #703720 - 06/26/02 08:59 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

I have a question:
Who REALLY gives a shit if one ever reaches some "mystical" state some call enlightenment?
I hope I'm never complete. I hope I never have the "ultimate perspective". God damn that would be so fucking boring!! I want to be wrong. I want to have miscommunications. I want to feel pain. Those things are what make all the good things in life so good. Fuck enlightenment. Just be, man. That's all there is. Oh and fuck aliens too.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Invisiblemr crisper
.

Registered: 07/25/00
Posts: 928
Re: Enlightenment: BOR-RING [Re: Sclorch]
    #703743 - 06/26/02 09:08 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

sclorch...so zen, you are probably closer than all of us.
" Oh and fuck aliens too. "
i do already, they go off


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OfflineTypingwords
Stranger

Registered: 08/04/01
Posts: 171
Loc: seattle-ish area, WA
Last seen: 3 years, 7 months
Re: Enlightenment: BOR-RING [Re: Sclorch]
    #704048 - 06/26/02 11:06 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

enlightenment is not boring. First of all, you've obviously never been enlightened so you don't even know what you're talking about....

"just be man, that's all there is..."

yes, exactly, that's what enlightenment is, it's being to the very fullest. And yes, that includes pain and everything else. To the max. Enlightened people are not missing out on something... you're the only one who's missing out on everything because your'e not experiencing it with a full awareness.


--------------------
everything everyone everywhere. forever and ever and ever.


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Invisiblethe_Landotter
Gnostic Chaoist

Registered: 05/24/02
Posts: 340
Loc: R'lyeh
Re: Enlightenment: BOR-RING [Re: Typingwords]
    #704588 - 06/27/02 06:35 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

>"Just be man, that's all there is."

Ya might wanna slap a capital on the "be" there. Just Be. There, that's better.

Well, I know that enlightenment comes when you realize that you can't really help "being" so you may as well "be" as much as possible and then life takes on that certain intensity that simply cannot be denied. That moment when you realize that being dead, in a state of non-being, would really suck because then Dr Pepper wouldn't make that lovely dark fizzy feeling in your throat.

What I mean is that with enlightenment even the simplest things take on profound signifigance and meaning and inherent beauty.

I also like the idea that enlightenment can mean "becoming lighter" as in "less heavy". Freedom. The liquid state. You know it when you've got it.

Then there's good ol Jim Morrisons take on it:
"Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, pretty good, pretty good, pretty neat, pretty neat. All right!"


the Landotter


--------------------
* * * * * * * * * *
Read the Landotter's Mystical Journey Journal


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Anonymous

Re: Enlightenment: BOR-RING [Re: the_Landotter]
    #704643 - 06/27/02 07:36 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Are you enlightened? Do you speak from first hand knowledge?


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