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OfflinePhluck
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What's the difference between enlightenment, and convincing yourself you're enlightened?
    #3409720 - 11/25/04 10:40 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Anything?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: What's the difference between enlightenment, and convincing yourself you're enlightened? [Re: Phluck]
    #3409756 - 11/25/04 10:46 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Well, in the first example one is actually enlightened, and in the next example, one isn't enlightened, but one thinks one is. One is like a goose.


Edited by Mixomatosis (11/25/04 10:53 PM)


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: What's the difference between enlightenment, and convincing yourself you're enlightened? [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #3409787 - 11/25/04 10:51 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

First you need to define enlightenment in order to decide if you are.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: What's the difference between enlightenment, and convincing yourself you're enlightened? [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #3409829 - 11/25/04 10:59 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Mixomatosis said:
Well, in the first example one is actually enlightened, and in the next example, one isn't enlightened, but one thinks one is.




yep. :grin:pretty simple.


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1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: What's the difference between enlightenment, and convincing yourself you're enlightened? [Re: Phluck]
    #3409830 - 11/25/04 10:59 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

The difference is that one is built on a root of a falseness/misconception that will eventually be disclosed by reality.
The other is substantially stable as the perennial truth/ultimate good by which they are enlightened.



--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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InvisibleFucknuckle
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Re: What's the difference between enlightenment, and convincing yourself you're enlightened? [Re: Phluck]
    #3409846 - 11/25/04 11:07 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

When you are truly Enlightened things happen that you can not explain. You become wiser past your understanding. You just know things that others don't and you have zero ego knowing these things. People around you will know that you are enlightened.

When truly in this state you are very different and you are aware of it but without saying so.

I once was a enlightened person and this is what I noticed.


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What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: What's the difference between enlightenment, and convincing yourself you're enlightened? [Re: Phluck]
    #3409852 - 11/25/04 11:09 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

"What's the difference between enlightenment, and convincing yourself you're enlightened?"

Same as the difference between KNOWING something, and BELIEVING you know something


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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InvisibleFucknuckle
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Re: What's the difference between enlightenment, and convincing yourself you're enlightened? [Re: Strumpling]
    #3409923 - 11/25/04 11:25 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

That does not answer the question at all.


--------------------
What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.


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OfflinePed
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Re: What's the difference between enlightenment, and convincing yourself you're enlightened? [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3410903 - 11/26/04 03:26 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

One is a delusion, the other is freedom from all delusions.


--------------------


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: What's the difference between enlightenment, and convincing yourself you're enlightened? [Re: Phluck]
    #3411224 - 11/26/04 05:32 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

The enlightened person will always know that he/she has achieved it by the knowledge and wisdom that comes from self-discovery, and will always be unsure by the humility that comes with enlightenment.

Get it?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleLoosifa
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Re: What's the difference between enlightenment, and convincing yourself you're enlightened? [Re: Ped]
    #3411325 - 11/26/04 07:38 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Ped said:
One is a delusion, the other is freedom from all delusions.



Ooh, I like that.
On a side note, when people discuss enlightenment, it seems to be in the context of total enlightenment.  Maybe it's a gradual thing.  Maybe one can never be totally enlightened, because of the nature of enlightenment.
Not that I really know anything.  Although I sometimes THINK I do...... :crazy2:


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LURK


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OfflineGomp
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Re: What's the difference between enlightenment, and convincing yourself you're enlightened? [Re: Loosifa]
    #3411374 - 11/26/04 08:29 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

""What's the difference between enlightenment, and convincing yourself you're enlightened?""

belief vs. not believing? ?

:confused: :heart:


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: What's the difference between enlightenment, and convincing yourself you're enlightened? [Re: Gomp]
    #3411400 - 11/26/04 09:07 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

one does not add to darkness


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Invisibledorkus
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Re: What's the difference between enlightenment, and convincing yourself you're enlightened? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3411467 - 11/26/04 10:19 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

No difference?

The power of the mind. Convince yourself and make it happen?

What is enlightenment really? Does it exist as a final state?


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OfflineGomp
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Re: What's the difference between enlightenment, and convincing yourself you're enlightened? [Re: dorkus]
    #3411504 - 11/26/04 10:44 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

in appeasement in light? :P


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: What's the difference between enlightenment, and convincing yourself you're enlightened? [Re: Gomp]
    #3411573 - 11/26/04 11:10 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

the only final state is a state of change or paradox.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: What's the difference between enlightenment, and convincing yourself you're enlightened? [Re: Phluck]
    #3411899 - 11/26/04 12:52 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

I am more Enlightened at this moment than I was at the beginning of my conscious journey to Enlightenment some 30 years ago. We can only compare ourselves to ourselves, our present progress to our past progress. One cannot compare oneself to other beings in this regard. It is not a contest and it is always then a matter of 'comparing apples to oranges.' We must become the fullest individuals that we were intended to be, we are not intended to be anyone else but ourselves. In the words of BE HERE NOW: 'You are the desire to become Enlightened. You are Enlightened.' Of course, the Work is to Realize that, and Realization means manifestation in thoughts, words and deeds.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: What's the difference between enlightenment, and convincing yourself you're enlightened? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3413038 - 11/26/04 06:32 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

That was well put Markos! :thumbup:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: What's the difference between enlightenment, and convincing yourself you're enlightened? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3413255 - 11/26/04 07:42 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

I think it is too chained up in logic.
when you put it so.
those chains, to me, are darknesses.

though you are very right about the path being work,
enlightenment is not the ideas, nor the work:
it is the clear view.


--------------------


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: What's the difference between enlightenment, and convincing yourself you're enlightened? [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3413498 - 11/26/04 08:49 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

"That does not answer the question at all."

OK let's try another idea:

The englightened one is never convinced of their own enlightenment.


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
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Offlinedeff
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Re: What's the difference between enlightenment, and convincing yourself you're enlightened? [Re: Strumpling]
    #3413502 - 11/26/04 08:50 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

^ :smile: :thumbup:


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: What's the difference between enlightenment, and convincing yourself you're enlightened? [Re: Strumpling]
    #3413638 - 11/26/04 09:35 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

The englightened one is never convinced of their own enlightenment.

Is there an echo in here?  :tongue:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: What's the difference between enlightenment, and convincing yourself you're enlightened? [Re: Phluck]
    #3413665 - 11/26/04 09:49 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

I don't know if enlightenment is a state of mind (as a means to an end) or if it is the actual journey or path taken.

when I see enlighten, what I mainly see is "lighten"

don't take your opinions and the world so seriously and you will "lighten" up a bit :smile:


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Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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Offlinezahudulallah
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Re: What's the difference between enlightenment, and convincing yourself you're enlightened? [Re: kaiowas]
    #3413672 - 11/26/04 09:53 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Enlightenment is a state of being. Realizing one's own being is Enlightenment/gnosis...

The mind is flesh.. it eventually becomes worm food.. but Being cannot be assimilated into the earth. :heart:


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: What's the difference between enlightenment, and convincing yourself you're enlightened? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3413761 - 11/26/04 10:24 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

I liked what is realistic about what markos said. I don't even bu into the word enlightenment itself AT ALL! I could come up with I bet a million questions Budha or Jesus could not answer any better then saying "It is what it is, or It has always been" Phooey!

realistically, from the top down and back, not one conscious entity, incarnate or discarnate knows everything about the whole of existance.

At best, light is shed on one dark area at a time and the same area many times over going deeper and higher and broader rightside in and inside out and directions we havn't concieved of yet.

There is the infinite and eternal void/dakrness/nothing always ready to become something and have light shed on it-the unrealised potential yet to be.

Define enlightenment? If you can, you are not talking about enlightenment. I don't even know how or why the word exist. Because it can't be defined, you have no way of knowing it in full. Just think about that.

People can continue to lighten up dark places but to have the whole of existance down to every subatomic nook and cranny lit up all in one moment in one conscious mind?
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Just my thoughts and feelings on that useless word.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: What's the difference between enlightenment, and convincing yourself you're enlightened? [Re: Diploid]
    #3413767 - 11/26/04 10:25 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

oh heh looks like there IS..

Sorry about that - I am guilty of not reading this whole thread.. :-|


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: What's the difference between enlightenment, and convincing yourself you're enlightened? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3413781 - 11/26/04 10:28 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

"Just my thoughts and feelings on that useless word."

your opinion of course... :wink:

if its so useless why is there a good debate going on?

even when things seems useless something cool can come out of it

then again "cool" is defined by the ego...so there you go  :grin:


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: What's the difference between enlightenment, and convincing yourself you're enlightened? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3413810 - 11/26/04 10:38 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

It is not uncommon for people to complicate the meaning of enlightenment to the point of the word losing it's essence; it's meaning. Similar to how the word God has become empty through thousands of years of misuse, giving rise to egoic delusions and so forth.

The Buddha defined enlightenment as: The end of suffering.

Keep it simple, because ultimately, enlightenment is simple. It is nothing fancy, nothing extravagant. It doesn't indicate superiority. In fact, many people who are in their mind-identified state would often find it 'too boring', like water. Water and enlightenment have alot in common. They are both neutral, clear and simple. They are both within each and every one of us, always - and within all life forms subject to birth and death. I could go on and on about the similarities between the two.

I could come up with I bet a million questions Budha or Jesus could not answer any better then saying "It is what it is, or It has always been" Phooey!

It seems you may be confusing knowledge, with enlightenment. Simply knowing the answer to a million things doesn't equate inter-connectedness with Being. Knowledge and Wisdom are two seperate things.



--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: What's the difference between enlightenment, and convincing yourself you're enlightened? [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3413828 - 11/26/04 10:41 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

"lighten" up skorpivo  :laugh:


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: What's the difference between enlightenment, and convincing yourself you're enlightened? [Re: kaiowas]
    #3413919 - 11/26/04 11:03 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Well it was a big Thanksgiving dinner after all.. :laugh:

-steps off weight scale-


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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: What's the difference between enlightenment, and convincing yourself you're enlightened? [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3413980 - 11/26/04 11:19 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

*farts* 

am I more enlightened than I was before?  :wink:


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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OfflineAnotherDimension
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Re: What's the difference between enlightenment, and convincing yourself you're enlightened? [Re: kaiowas]
    #3414076 - 11/26/04 11:38 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

If you convince yourself you are enlightened, no one else believes it.

If you are enlightened, most everyone realizes it.


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Another Dimension
---------------------------
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On the light fantastick toe."


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: What's the difference between enlightenment, and convincing yourself you're enlightened? [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3414200 - 11/27/04 12:06 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Soooooooo Buddha invented the word and gave it the meaning of the end of suffering?

Is that the official websters meaning of the word???????? News to me. I always knew the word to mean "the state of being in the light" and something enlightening to mean something that brings light to something. In the context of that meaning, what I said about the word enlightenment stands.

In the context of the end of suffering meaning, well, typically suffering relates to ignorance, being in the dark, yada yada and being in the light eases fear and confusion and brings peace. So, in a way his meaning and my understanding of the word sorta relate.

However, light to me equates with information. Information brings you into the light about something you were once in the dark about.

The difference between knowledge and wisdom to me is that wisdom comes from experience and knowledge comes from being informed. Like the difference between street smarts and book smarts. 

ALL the more Buddhas definition of enlightenment leading to wisdom doesn't cut it with me then, because to gain wisdom, one needs to experience all sorts of never ending non sense and come through it all the wiser.  Wisdom is aquired by jumping into the unknown and coming out with it known because you experienced it as such.

Correct me if I am wrong, but Buddha didn't impress me as being someone who advocated gaining experience. Without that, all he could have is knowledge, not wisdom.

If enlightment is as simple as putting an end to suffering, that's easy and let me tell you death doesn't get ya there either as I have found a handful in the after life suffering in the guilt and denial of their passing brought on with them. Those stories and that subject is a whole nother topic.

It would be as easy to end suffering as to simply not care about a thing. Thats all it would take is the ability to say "So What! I don't care! to everything. How that equates with compassion is beyond me. Yet that makes being compassionate really easy.

"ooooooh you have a knife in your back and lost your job and your child was raped? I don't care because if I did, I would have to feel and acknoledge your suffering and I ended that as I am now enlightened and compasionate. Have a nice day!"

I'm just throwing out a different loot at it and some food for thought and I think its clear the term means different things to different people.

I don't bother with the word or any meaning of it. I do like to transform darkness into light though and gain experiential wisdom, event by event.

Thats why I go black hole jumping!!!!!!!To each his own at the end of the day! :cheers: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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Offlinethe_phoenix
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Re: What's the difference between enlightenment, and convincing yourself you're enlightened? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3414234 - 11/27/04 12:15 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Convincing yourself that you're enlightened will not successfully create enlightenment in you. This can be measured by its effect, versus that of true enlightenment, on the state of your being/existence.

:cool: :rocket: :grin: :syringe: :badcomputer: :whack: :argh: :whocares: :whoa: :popcorn: :japsmile: :sun:


Edited by the_phoenix (11/27/04 12:22 AM)


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Re: What's the difference between enlightenment, and convincing yourself you're enlightened? [Re: the_phoenix]
    #3414255 - 11/27/04 12:22 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

I'm assuming you hit quick reply. I do want to ask you, "what is true enlightenment?"


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Re: What's the difference between enlightenment, and convincing yourself you're enlightened? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3414266 - 11/27/04 12:24 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
I'm assuming you hit quick reply. I do want to ask you, "what is true enlightenment?"


The point is that pretending to be something, or acting as something, can never equal the actual state of truly being it, regardless of what "it" is.


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Re: What's the difference between enlightenment, and convincing yourself you're enlightened? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3414282 - 11/27/04 12:28 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

The end suffering does not mean not ever experiencing any challenging times, trials and tribulations of life...

It's simply about changing the perspective and attitude in which you live Life, so that you don't create suffering for yourself and others. If this isn't compassionate, I don't know what is.

If experiencing suffering objectively leads to wisdom and enlightenment, then millions of people would be Buddhas today. Which brings me to this statement:

The difference between knowledge and wisdom to me is that wisdom comes from experience and knowledge comes from being informed.

Experience alone does not guarantee wisdom. Wisdom comes from the ability to be still. The longer the length, or rather, depth of experience of life... the more likely the this ability will be recovered/learned. Certainly we all have met many people who are very old and experienced, who contrast greatly in magnitudes of wisdom to others who are very young compared to them.

I agree that it is a generally observable fact that it does take suffering for many people to spiritually 'wake-up' and actualize their spiritual evolution. However, whether suffering is ultimately, truly needed, is another question.

I use the Buddha's definition of enlightenment, because it is simple, straight to the point, and free of clutter and egoic-complications.



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Edited by SkorpivoMusterion (11/27/04 12:36 AM)


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Re: What's the difference between enlightenment, and convincing yourself you're enlightened? [Re: the_phoenix]
    #3414302 - 11/27/04 12:31 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Thanks for clarifying you were making a point and what it was.

If I am the acting Mayor of the town, am I not the Mayor? Pretending is not truly being, but acting as "is"

Here's what the dictionary said;

enlightenment

n 1: education that results in understanding and the spread of knowledge [ant: unenlightenment] 2: (Hinduism and Buddhism) the beatitude that transcends the cycle of reincarnation; characterized by the extinction of desire and suffering and individual consciousness [syn: Nirvana] 3: a movement in the 18th century that advocated the use of reason in the reappraisal of accepted ideas and social institutions [syn: Enlightenment, Age of Reason]


See, it said knowledge NOT wisdom. Here's what it said on the meaning of enlighten;

en?light?en    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (n-ltn)
tr.v. en?light?ened, en?light?en?ing, en?light?ens
To give spiritual or intellectual insight to: ?Enlighten the people generally, and tyranny and oppression of body and mind will vanish like evil spirits at the dawn of day? (Thomas Jefferson).
To give information to; inform or instruct.

Thats what I said, "to become informed" back to knowledge only.


:crazy:


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Re: What's the difference between enlightenment, and convincing yourself you're enlightened? [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3414376 - 11/27/04 12:46 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Adding clutter to it is the only way to give meaning to it.

If you told an 8 year old that to become enlightened which is ideal is to end suffering, what would that mean to them?

What good is simple if it has no useful applicable meaning to anyone?

To be honest, if I start to notice I am feeling "suffering of sorts" I do choose to just stop caring about it" and up and out of suffering I go.

If you havn't noticed, I'm sorta playing devils advocate here just to push discussion around and stretch the subject so we all can stretch with it.

I also found this which was interesting;

Knowledge and wisdom, far from being one, Have ofttimes no connection. Knowledge dwells In heads replete with thoughts of other men; Wisdom, in minds attentive to their own. Knowledge, a rude, unprofitable mass, The mere materials with which wisdom builds, Till smoothed, and squared, and fitted to its place, Does but encumber whom it seems to enrich. Knowledge is proud that he has learned so much; Wisdom is humble that he knows no more. --Cowper.


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Re: What's the difference between enlightenment, and convincing yourself you're enlightened? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3414431 - 11/27/04 01:04 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Adding clutter to it is the only way to give meaning to it.

Clutter doesn't add meaning. Clutter deteriorates, muddies, and clouds meaning.

If you told an 8 year old that to become enlightened which is ideal is to end suffering, what would that mean to them?

The combination of words: "The end of suffering" is by no means the entire philosophy/spirituality in and of itself, it is merely the epitome of such.

That is why there are entire religions, i.e. Buddhism, with basic principles and practices that revolves around that basic epitome - because simply saying "end suffering" isn't going to get everybody very far.

To be honest, if I start to notice I am feeling "suffering of sorts" I do choose to just stop caring about it" and up and out of suffering I go.


In order to end the suffering, you have to essentially care about it.. This care gives motivation to learn the mechanics of the cause and effect that led to such suffering, and adapt principles to prevent further suffering, and so forth - which makes room for true compassion, love for Life and higher consciousness to flower.

If you havn't noticed, I'm sorta playing devils advocate here just to push discussion around and stretch the subject so we all can stretch with it.

Why, you devil, you.. :wink:.
I appreciate the increased flexibility and stronger elasticity that will evolve from such challenges of your Satanic advocation. :heart:



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Re: What's the difference between enlightenment, and convincing yourself you're enlightened? [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3414462 - 11/27/04 01:13 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

You've been writing good stuff as a result I think many can and will appreciate!

There are many wise people here and unless they get pushed to expansiate expand-appreciate, there is a lot they will never share.

There is a big difference between not caring out of lazy ignorance and being able to let go out of knowing what one can't change and should not care to change. Thats acceptance with the all that is as it is.

Thanks for playing and caring and sharing! :satansmoking: :heart:


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Re: What's the difference between enlightenment, and convincing yourself you're enlightened? [Re: Phluck]
    #3414729 - 11/27/04 02:20 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Phluck said:
Anything?




He who speaks, does not know. He who knows, does not speak.

If you are convicing yourself or needing to for that matter, you aren't. Enlightenment is realization you have known and never will know anything more than nothing, which is paradoxically, knowing everything...


Edited by EgoTripping (11/27/04 02:20 AM)


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Re: What's the difference between enlightenment, and convincing yourself you're enlightened? [Re: Ped]
    #3414778 - 11/27/04 02:34 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Ped said:
One is a delusion, the other is freedom from all delusions.




How does one know if one is free of all delusions? Who makes the rules as to what it is to be enlightened? By which guage to which measure whether one is enlightened? By the guage of the Christian? The Muslim? The Mormon? The Bhuddists?


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Re: What's the difference between enlightenment, and convincing yourself you're enlightened? [Re: Frog]
    #3414980 - 11/27/04 04:17 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

enlightenment is just a word. how can this one thing be anything or nothing at all?


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Re: What's the difference between enlightenment, and convincing yourself you're enlightened? [Re: Phluck]
    #3415006 - 11/27/04 04:41 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

whats enlightenment vs. being enlightened?


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Re: What's the difference between enlightenment, and convincing yourself you're enlightened? [Re: Frog]
    #3415016 - 11/27/04 04:51 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

there is no guage...it is beyond that. its beyond anything becuase it isnt anything.

there is no one.

it comes before all particular things.


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Re: What's the difference between enlightenment, and convincing yourself you're enlightened? [Re: Strumpling]
    #3415028 - 11/27/04 05:08 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Well i'd have to say that anyone who claims they're enlightened, certainly isn't. enlightenment is the realization that there is no certain "I" or individual entity.

Quote:

Strumpling said:
"What's the difference between enlightenment, and convincing yourself you're enlightened?"

Same as the difference between KNOWING something, and BELIEVING you know something





KNOWING something, or thinking you know something is the same as BELIEVING something. K=JTB. knowledge=justified true belief. justified true BELIEF. and what makes something a TRUE belief?
there is no such thing as a true belief. the only "truth" is That which we can be absolutely certain of, otherwise its just a belief.
and That is the Self or Atman or whatever word people use to try to describe it. but the truth cannot be described. it is THAT which IS.
some people have a sense of what this is. some might think im full of shit. and maybe i am. and it doesnt matter because like i said before, there is no "I".


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Re: What's the difference between enlightenment, and convincing yourself you're enlightened? [Re: gone_awry]
    #3415311 - 11/27/04 10:41 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

it's all semantics on the surface

"enlightened" states are underneath

I've said before that I do not believe there is an absolute end to the enlightening process. There is no unenlightened/enlightened transition. It is a gradient, relative to memories of past instances.

As soon as words are used, the message becomes far too subjective. Not everyone will relate, as not everyone will have the same linguistic experience. It is not beyond words, but underneath of them.

And to add to that - while I do not consider myself a 'buddhist' per se, I feel the Buddha knew what he was talking about for sure :cool:


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Re: What's the difference between enlightenment, and convincing yourself you're enlightened? [Re: Strumpling]
    #3415318 - 11/27/04 10:45 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Strumpling said:
Sorry about that - I am guilty of not reading this whole thread.. :-|




Not only that, but you are also guilty of not reading every whole thread. :lol:



Anyways, ja. The concept of Enlightenment seems to be an evolved Heaven, simply changing the external ultimate orgasm that will bring wholeness and peace and ultimateness into an internal one. Interestingly enough, it is still impossible. :smirk:

Too often it is viewed as something that needs to be obtained, or as some end. Too often is it defined and codefied when doing so is technically impossible to do. Too often is it made to be more than it actually is. :grin:

Its a state of change, its a way, and to describe it more than that only fucks it and your understanding of it over.

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
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:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Re: What's the difference between enlightenment, and convincing yourself you're enlightened? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #3415511 - 11/27/04 12:56 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

"The mind's perception of one's Divinity is an ego trip"
-Anunda

:wink:


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Re: What's the difference between enlightenment, and convincing yourself you're enlightened? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3415533 - 11/27/04 01:02 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

In my opinion enlightenment is when you no longer identify yourself as your body, and mind.

When you realize the self, you become enlightened.


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Re: What's the difference between enlightenment, and convincing yourself you're enlightened? [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3415548 - 11/27/04 01:08 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

SkorpivoMusterion said:
"The mind's perception of one's Divinity is an ego trip"
-Anuna




Exactly! I didn't know how to put it nicely but, it's sort of funny when you think about people on a path to a higher state of being while the path includes disengaging from the ego. Isn't it the ego that wants that betterment for itself in the first place?  :confused:


Makes ya wonder about a lot of things and go hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Cake for everyone! :grin:


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Re: What's the difference between enlightenment, and convincing yourself you're enlightened? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3415630 - 11/27/04 01:37 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

You are half right, the Ego wants betterment of the immediate physical craving. Much like a little child who would take a smaller gift before Christmas rather than recieve a greater gift by waiting for Christmas day.

The Ego does not desire to better itself, but merely satisfy itself. It's the Spiritual Path that says to the Ego "No, you shall suffer for the betterment of the Self." And the betterment of the Self is not for the individual, but for the benefit of ALL Mankind. Even if one more person turns away from the Dark and walks the path of Light, that's still ONE less person spreading darkness in the world and instead shining Light.

We, as physical humans, have an inherent desire to satisfy ourselves and always seek some kind of satisfaction for doing ANY good deed. The desire for betterment however is different, because if it's true, it's only a desire to better the Self which in turn is meant for betterment of the entire human race.


Edited by EgoTripping (11/27/04 01:49 PM)


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Re: What's the difference between enlightenment, and convincing yourself you're enlightened? [Re: EgoTripping]
    #3416635 - 11/27/04 06:51 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Half right is your opinion. When it comes to this stuff its all just as much right as it is wrong, depends one who's doing the observing and through what lens.

We are talking about enlightenment and no one even agrees on the same exact meaning as most people have a non dictionary meaning of the word. Even the dictionary isn't clear and a tad vague on this one.

Think of this as just an opportunity to braoden awarness and do some mental and emotional percepetion stretching exercises.

Look at what you wrote in another way.

On the one hand, you have egoless servitude towards others as being the virtue of enlightenment.

On the next, you talked about walking away from the darkness as if it went hand in hand? :confused: Who are the dark if not also a part of the one?

Who is more in need of your selfless service to the ONE? Someone in the dark or someone in the light?

If everyone in the light hung out in the light and turned their back on the dark, who would be helping who and what? Would just the enlightened people be helping the enlightened people and how?
How do people in the dark get help if everyone rejects them as being bad wrong and evil?

Should they be helped or only good people be helped. When are people expected to help themselves? Should people be expected to help themselves or are some suppose to remain dependent and helpless?

Is it not a perspective in duality and separation that sees others as less then and in need of your services?  Would an enlightened person see beyond the illusion of duality and see all well and in order as it truly is or not and why?

What is a true desire for self benefit versus a false one anyway? If bettering the self betters the one, then what's all this selfless service talk about? Whats the difference to you if you said there is and isn't all in the same reply?

If everyone just bettered themselves then, who would need servicing?

I replace your phrase of desiring self satisfaction with self fullfillment.  Think about the subtle differences.

How does one spread darkness anyway? What is the darkness to you and how can it be spread?

Answer these questions to yourself and maybe you will see there are no right or wrongs here, just different ways of looking at it.

I will maintain, any perspective that comes from duality is not one in the purest light.

As far as I am concerned all anyone can do is totally stumble over the topic of what being enlightened is. When they start describing it oxy morons start coming up.


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Re: What's the difference between enlightenment, and convincing yourself you're enlightened? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3416641 - 11/27/04 06:54 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

exactly, language is very limiting :cool:


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Re: What's the difference between enlightenment, and convincing yourself you're enlightened? [Re: Ped]
    #3420582 - 11/28/04 09:42 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

My Lady and I were sitting in our meditation room next to a table with some Tibetan Deities bronzes (Mahakala and consort Vishnamata at center [picked up at a flea market for $65!], and 2 new additions - White Tara and Chenrezig/Avaloketsvara - www.tibetanspirit.com). 1.5 gms on Thanksgiving night - just conversational - and I had a flash that the pig, cock and snake at the center of the Wheel of Life mandala also represented the Endomorph, Mesomorph and Ectomorph of W.H. Sheldon's somatotyping. The Endomorphic/Vicerotonic 'round-shaped' who develops primarily from the vicera, likes food and comfort; the Mesomorphic/Somatotonic 'square-shaped' who develops out of bone and muscle, who likes action and fighting; and the Ectomorphic/Cerebrotonic 'linear-shaped' person who likes thinking and has the highest sex drive. Pig, Rooster, Snake. Yes - the natural proclivities which addict one to the Wheel of Existence!

I thought I'd just mention this to you out of appreciation of your illustrated metaphysic. Now, the physical and psychological aspects come to my focus as well, and I'm searching for a copy for our meditation room wall.

Peace.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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