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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: What's the difference between enlightenment, and convincing yourself you're enlightened? [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3414462 - 11/27/04 01:13 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

You've been writing good stuff as a result I think many can and will appreciate!

There are many wise people here and unless they get pushed to expansiate expand-appreciate, there is a lot they will never share.

There is a big difference between not caring out of lazy ignorance and being able to let go out of knowing what one can't change and should not care to change. Thats acceptance with the all that is as it is.

Thanks for playing and caring and sharing! :satansmoking: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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OfflineEgoTripping
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Re: What's the difference between enlightenment, and convincing yourself you're enlightened? [Re: Phluck]
    #3414729 - 11/27/04 02:20 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Phluck said:
Anything?




He who speaks, does not know. He who knows, does not speak.

If you are convicing yourself or needing to for that matter, you aren't. Enlightenment is realization you have known and never will know anything more than nothing, which is paradoxically, knowing everything...


Edited by EgoTripping (11/27/04 02:20 AM)


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OfflineFrog
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Re: What's the difference between enlightenment, and convincing yourself you're enlightened? [Re: Ped]
    #3414778 - 11/27/04 02:34 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Ped said:
One is a delusion, the other is freedom from all delusions.




How does one know if one is free of all delusions? Who makes the rules as to what it is to be enlightened? By which guage to which measure whether one is enlightened? By the guage of the Christian? The Muslim? The Mormon? The Bhuddists?


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineCleverName
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Re: What's the difference between enlightenment, and convincing yourself you're enlightened? [Re: Frog]
    #3414980 - 11/27/04 04:17 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

enlightenment is just a word. how can this one thing be anything or nothing at all?


--------------------
if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?

this is the purpose


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Re: What's the difference between enlightenment, and convincing yourself you're enlightened? [Re: Phluck]
    #3415006 - 11/27/04 04:41 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

whats enlightenment vs. being enlightened?


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Offlinesleepysmoker
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Re: What's the difference between enlightenment, and convincing yourself you're enlightened? [Re: Frog]
    #3415016 - 11/27/04 04:51 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

there is no guage...it is beyond that. its beyond anything becuase it isnt anything.

there is no one.

it comes before all particular things.


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Offlinegone_awry
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Re: What's the difference between enlightenment, and convincing yourself you're enlightened? [Re: Strumpling]
    #3415028 - 11/27/04 05:08 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Well i'd have to say that anyone who claims they're enlightened, certainly isn't. enlightenment is the realization that there is no certain "I" or individual entity.

Quote:

Strumpling said:
"What's the difference between enlightenment, and convincing yourself you're enlightened?"

Same as the difference between KNOWING something, and BELIEVING you know something





KNOWING something, or thinking you know something is the same as BELIEVING something. K=JTB. knowledge=justified true belief. justified true BELIEF. and what makes something a TRUE belief?
there is no such thing as a true belief. the only "truth" is That which we can be absolutely certain of, otherwise its just a belief.
and That is the Self or Atman or whatever word people use to try to describe it. but the truth cannot be described. it is THAT which IS.
some people have a sense of what this is. some might think im full of shit. and maybe i am. and it doesnt matter because like i said before, there is no "I".


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Offlinedeff
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Re: What's the difference between enlightenment, and convincing yourself you're enlightened? [Re: gone_awry]
    #3415311 - 11/27/04 10:41 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

it's all semantics on the surface

"enlightened" states are underneath

I've said before that I do not believe there is an absolute end to the enlightening process. There is no unenlightened/enlightened transition. It is a gradient, relative to memories of past instances.

As soon as words are used, the message becomes far too subjective. Not everyone will relate, as not everyone will have the same linguistic experience. It is not beyond words, but underneath of them.

And to add to that - while I do not consider myself a 'buddhist' per se, I feel the Buddha knew what he was talking about for sure :cool:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: What's the difference between enlightenment, and convincing yourself you're enlightened? [Re: Strumpling]
    #3415318 - 11/27/04 10:45 AM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Strumpling said:
Sorry about that - I am guilty of not reading this whole thread.. :-|




Not only that, but you are also guilty of not reading every whole thread. :lol:



Anyways, ja. The concept of Enlightenment seems to be an evolved Heaven, simply changing the external ultimate orgasm that will bring wholeness and peace and ultimateness into an internal one. Interestingly enough, it is still impossible. :smirk:

Too often it is viewed as something that needs to be obtained, or as some end. Too often is it defined and codefied when doing so is technically impossible to do. Too often is it made to be more than it actually is. :grin:

Its a state of change, its a way, and to describe it more than that only fucks it and your understanding of it over.

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Re: What's the difference between enlightenment, and convincing yourself you're enlightened? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #3415511 - 11/27/04 12:56 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

"The mind's perception of one's Divinity is an ego trip"
-Anunda

:wink:


--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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Re: What's the difference between enlightenment, and convincing yourself you're enlightened? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3415533 - 11/27/04 01:02 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

In my opinion enlightenment is when you no longer identify yourself as your body, and mind.

When you realize the self, you become enlightened.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: What's the difference between enlightenment, and convincing yourself you're enlightened? [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3415548 - 11/27/04 01:08 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

SkorpivoMusterion said:
"The mind's perception of one's Divinity is an ego trip"
-Anuna




Exactly! I didn't know how to put it nicely but, it's sort of funny when you think about people on a path to a higher state of being while the path includes disengaging from the ego. Isn't it the ego that wants that betterment for itself in the first place?  :confused:


Makes ya wonder about a lot of things and go hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Cake for everyone! :grin:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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OfflineEgoTripping
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Re: What's the difference between enlightenment, and convincing yourself you're enlightened? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3415630 - 11/27/04 01:37 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

You are half right, the Ego wants betterment of the immediate physical craving. Much like a little child who would take a smaller gift before Christmas rather than recieve a greater gift by waiting for Christmas day.

The Ego does not desire to better itself, but merely satisfy itself. It's the Spiritual Path that says to the Ego "No, you shall suffer for the betterment of the Self." And the betterment of the Self is not for the individual, but for the benefit of ALL Mankind. Even if one more person turns away from the Dark and walks the path of Light, that's still ONE less person spreading darkness in the world and instead shining Light.

We, as physical humans, have an inherent desire to satisfy ourselves and always seek some kind of satisfaction for doing ANY good deed. The desire for betterment however is different, because if it's true, it's only a desire to better the Self which in turn is meant for betterment of the entire human race.


Edited by EgoTripping (11/27/04 01:49 PM)


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: What's the difference between enlightenment, and convincing yourself you're enlightened? [Re: EgoTripping]
    #3416635 - 11/27/04 06:51 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

Half right is your opinion. When it comes to this stuff its all just as much right as it is wrong, depends one who's doing the observing and through what lens.

We are talking about enlightenment and no one even agrees on the same exact meaning as most people have a non dictionary meaning of the word. Even the dictionary isn't clear and a tad vague on this one.

Think of this as just an opportunity to braoden awarness and do some mental and emotional percepetion stretching exercises.

Look at what you wrote in another way.

On the one hand, you have egoless servitude towards others as being the virtue of enlightenment.

On the next, you talked about walking away from the darkness as if it went hand in hand? :confused: Who are the dark if not also a part of the one?

Who is more in need of your selfless service to the ONE? Someone in the dark or someone in the light?

If everyone in the light hung out in the light and turned their back on the dark, who would be helping who and what? Would just the enlightened people be helping the enlightened people and how?
How do people in the dark get help if everyone rejects them as being bad wrong and evil?

Should they be helped or only good people be helped. When are people expected to help themselves? Should people be expected to help themselves or are some suppose to remain dependent and helpless?

Is it not a perspective in duality and separation that sees others as less then and in need of your services?  Would an enlightened person see beyond the illusion of duality and see all well and in order as it truly is or not and why?

What is a true desire for self benefit versus a false one anyway? If bettering the self betters the one, then what's all this selfless service talk about? Whats the difference to you if you said there is and isn't all in the same reply?

If everyone just bettered themselves then, who would need servicing?

I replace your phrase of desiring self satisfaction with self fullfillment.  Think about the subtle differences.

How does one spread darkness anyway? What is the darkness to you and how can it be spread?

Answer these questions to yourself and maybe you will see there are no right or wrongs here, just different ways of looking at it.

I will maintain, any perspective that comes from duality is not one in the purest light.

As far as I am concerned all anyone can do is totally stumble over the topic of what being enlightened is. When they start describing it oxy morons start coming up.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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Offlinedeff
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Re: What's the difference between enlightenment, and convincing yourself you're enlightened? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3416641 - 11/27/04 06:54 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

exactly, language is very limiting :cool:


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: What's the difference between enlightenment, and convincing yourself you're enlightened? [Re: Ped]
    #3420582 - 11/28/04 09:42 PM (16 years, 5 months ago)

My Lady and I were sitting in our meditation room next to a table with some Tibetan Deities bronzes (Mahakala and consort Vishnamata at center [picked up at a flea market for $65!], and 2 new additions - White Tara and Chenrezig/Avaloketsvara - www.tibetanspirit.com). 1.5 gms on Thanksgiving night - just conversational - and I had a flash that the pig, cock and snake at the center of the Wheel of Life mandala also represented the Endomorph, Mesomorph and Ectomorph of W.H. Sheldon's somatotyping. The Endomorphic/Vicerotonic 'round-shaped' who develops primarily from the vicera, likes food and comfort; the Mesomorphic/Somatotonic 'square-shaped' who develops out of bone and muscle, who likes action and fighting; and the Ectomorphic/Cerebrotonic 'linear-shaped' person who likes thinking and has the highest sex drive. Pig, Rooster, Snake. Yes - the natural proclivities which addict one to the Wheel of Existence!

I thought I'd just mention this to you out of appreciation of your illustrated metaphysic. Now, the physical and psychological aspects come to my focus as well, and I'm searching for a copy for our meditation room wall.

Peace.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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