Home | Community | Message Board


RVF Garden Supply
Please support our sponsors.

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Jump to first unread post. Pages: 1
Invisiblevampirism
Stranger
Male User Gallery

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 8,120
Enlightment ( Reason ) vs Romanticism
    #4288091 - 06/12/05 07:46 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

The title could just as well have been called idealism vs realism.

These two very general schools of being have been at each others throats since they came about ( they have always been around in some form or another ). But more importantly, neither Romanticism or Enlightment followers have died out, the same sentiments and arguments are still being used. They are not outdated because neither "won."

Taking a brief look, the Enlightenment came about in order to fight superstition and tradition from "the Dark Ages." It was from its wisdom that people forged supposedly wonderful new political systems, the American constitution for example. All went well, until the ideals fell flat on their face-- French revolutions were nothing but tyranny and horror. The American system took a much longer to corrupt, but arguably because it had no real tradition or history. It was doomed from the very early point that political parties formed anyway.

Because of the failures, people questioned everything. One of Goya's famous drawings was called "The Sleep of Reason Produces Monsters." This could be construed as an argument for reason, but Goya was a Romantic at heart, and so such an interpretation is dubious.

However, what if you take the point to heart.. "The sleep of reason produces monsters" ? Under reason, there are no monsters. With reason, there still *needs* to be rest and so it will always rest for some period.

Romanticism was enamored by violence, discord and physical pleasure, but saw them largely as resulting from the reign of reason.


A scientist may argue that if you just had no more unreasonable people, you would have no more problems. It would be an ideal system which is still conceived of today- happy people working constructively on problems.

But an extreme opposite also exists- it is a living, breathing organic ideal of a human system. In it, a human life would be like an orgasm or something like that- soaked in emotion and feeling.



This brings about an important point- neither way has shown any lasting presence. I would call the Enlightment system purely ideal- it is clear and articulate, but does not hold up in use. The Romantic system is born of experience, but is Ok with things some people see as injustice. Why do these two systems keep emerging in different forms, movements and *everything* human? One way to explain it is with the different hemispheres of the brain ( i don't like this explanation, but I suspect those who frequent this forum would best enjoy it this way ).

Can you honestly tell me one way is better *for everyone* ? Science supposedly makes great tools. Right /sarcasm . Actually, it makes the ingrediants and basis for creativity to take place.


this is a huge issue, so ill stop now to preserve *some* coherency


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblevampirism
Stranger
Male User Gallery

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 8,120
Re: Enlightment ( Reason ) vs Romanticism [Re: vampirism]
    #4290479 - 06/13/05 11:20 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

hem

i thought all S&P posts at least got a reply?

/only bump


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 19,697
Re: Enlightment ( Reason ) vs Romanticism [Re: vampirism]
    #4290525 - 06/13/05 11:37 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

realism:
"what is happenning?"
idealism:
"smooth..."


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinecb9fl
Senior ChildMolestationExpert
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
Loc: florida
Last seen: 7 years, 3 months
Re: Enlightment ( Reason ) vs Romanticism [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4290544 - 06/13/05 11:43 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

realism:
"what is happening and why is it happening?"

idealism:
"how can i make what is happening better fit my view of the world?"


--------------------
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide

"Generosity is nothing else than a craze to possess. All which I abandon, all which I give, I enjoy in a higher manner through the fact that I give it away. To give is to enjoy possessively the object which one gives."


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 19,697
Re: Enlightment ( Reason ) vs Romanticism [Re: cb9fl]
    #4290573 - 06/13/05 11:53 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

isn't "why it is happenning" a matter of making what is happenning "better fit my view of the world"?


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinecb9fl
Senior ChildMolestationExpert
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
Loc: florida
Last seen: 7 years, 3 months
Re: Enlightment ( Reason ) vs Romanticism [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4290585 - 06/13/05 11:57 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Not if you're objective.


--------------------
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide

"Generosity is nothing else than a craze to possess. All which I abandon, all which I give, I enjoy in a higher manner through the fact that I give it away. To give is to enjoy possessively the object which one gives."


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblemoog
Stranger

Registered: 02/15/05
Posts: 1,296
Re: Enlightment ( Reason ) vs Romanticism [Re: vampirism]
    #4290594 - 06/13/05 11:59 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Like any duality, they have to be integrated to be most effective.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 19,697
Re: Enlightment ( Reason ) vs Romanticism [Re: cb9fl]
    #4290617 - 06/13/05 12:08 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

cb9fl;

being objective involves objectifying
or taking a point of view that takes in something as if it were a separate object. (is reality separate?)

unfortunately a single point of view is only a point from which to begin a debate.

the idealistic or smoothed result of a viewpoint is natural but naturally flawed as well, so we need to keep the mind open.

by the way, both your avatar and byline have distinctly racist propositions highlighted. this puts you into a bit of a tensed elastic mindset.

would you consider racism to be idealism or realism?


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinecb9fl
Senior ChildMolestationExpert
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
Loc: florida
Last seen: 7 years, 3 months
Re: Enlightment ( Reason ) vs Romanticism [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4290637 - 06/13/05 12:14 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Definition:

1. The act or practice of envisioning things in an ideal form.
2. Pursuit of one's ideals.
3. Idealized treatment of a subject in literature or art.
4. Philosophy. The theory that the object of external perception, in itself or as perceived, consists of ideas.


I was thinking of 1 as the definition while I see that as this is S&P you're looking at 4.

I'm not going to get into an argument about racism here as it will most certainly turn into a flame fest. But why do you think my sig has a racist tone?


--------------------
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide

"Generosity is nothing else than a craze to possess. All which I abandon, all which I give, I enjoy in a higher manner through the fact that I give it away. To give is to enjoy possessively the object which one gives."


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 19,697
Re: Enlightment ( Reason ) vs Romanticism [Re: cb9fl]
    #4290706 - 06/13/05 12:31 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

actually I am not looking at definitions, i am promoting fresh thinking;

my original comment about "what is happenning?"
refers to a tracking kind of reality experience
and my comment about "smooth" refers to an ongoing internal process which relates to what is happenning but looks for connections and "connects the dots" - relating what you knew and what seems to be appearing.

this is just something that I came up with from being entheogenized and it may go past being "objective" or "subjective" which is a constraint to only 2 moments, and does not consider the co-incidence of both.

Anyway; you can avoid any argument that you want to avoid, including one about racism being your personal form of idealism, but waving two flags on every posting (byline and avatar) is not really avoiding it - or am I starting to get too subjective about the obvious?


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblevampirism
Stranger
Male User Gallery

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 8,120
Re: Enlightment ( Reason ) vs Romanticism [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4290849 - 06/13/05 01:03 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

that's kind of my point- your definition is simple but in actuality very vague. What would science fit into?

Since it is a conceptual construct created by tons of reduction, i would call it ideal. It does not process reality, it looks for idealism ini t.

This is the problem; there is a duality here between appearance and being. Science appears to be very objective and realistic, but in reality it is idealism.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 19,697
Re: Enlightment ( Reason ) vs Romanticism [Re: vampirism]
    #4291053 - 06/13/05 01:51 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

one needs an engine to function on it's own without any driver.
could that engine actually be the mind?


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblevampirism
Stranger
Male User Gallery

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 8,120
Re: Enlightment ( Reason ) vs Romanticism [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4291564 - 06/13/05 04:20 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

what?


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 19,697
Re: Enlightment ( Reason ) vs Romanticism [Re: vampirism]
    #4291763 - 06/13/05 05:04 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

the model
the model of what is being discussed
that model has to operate without being pushed around the track
that is the engine


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblevampirism
Stranger
Male User Gallery

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 8,120
Re: Enlightment ( Reason ) vs Romanticism [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4291791 - 06/13/05 05:08 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

But then, i would say it *needs* a driver. You're suggesting it doesn't?


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 19,697
Re: Enlightment ( Reason ) vs Romanticism [Re: vampirism]
    #4292080 - 06/13/05 05:55 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I'm suggesting it works partly in realism and partly in idealism and the driver is an artifact of the idealistic part of it's normal operation


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Jump to top. Pages: 1

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Reason vs. Purpose
( 1 2 all )
Poid 1,674 34 10/22/08 08:51 AM
by redgreenvines
* Reason vs Faith
( 1 2 all )
silversoul7 1,556 21 11/11/06 07:33 PM
by samueljackson
* Romantic love.
( 1 2 3 4 all )
Icelander 4,133 79 05/27/07 03:50 PM
by backfromthedead
* The Illusion of Romantic Love
( 1 2 3 all )
Swami 2,907 47 09/09/03 07:33 PM
by Phalanxx
* Partial brain injury vs. total brain injury
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 all )
OrgoneConclusion 8,294 130 01/24/09 06:24 PM
by Mr. Mushrooms
* Freewill vs. Determinism: ....???
( 1 2 3 all )
buttonion 3,624 52 04/16/03 03:39 AM
by JuR
* racism is bad, race is not race lines 1,044 19 06/01/09 07:52 PM
by xFrockx
* Representative Realism Rhizoid 1,302 11 08/17/03 06:16 AM
by fireworks_god

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, CosmicJoke, Diploid, DividedQuantum
913 topic views. 2 members, 7 guests and 3 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Toggle Favorite | Print Topic | Stats ]
Search this thread:
Zamnesia.com
Please support our sponsors.

Copyright 1997-2016 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.051 seconds spending 0.003 seconds on 14 queries.