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InvisibleSwami
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The Illusion of Romantic Love
    #1895217 - 09/08/03 06:48 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

If romantic love were "real" and not a business deal then statisitics would not show consistent patterns.

The best-looking babes go for as much power as they believe they can get. This power can take the form of position/prestige: the football jock; the senator; the movie star; or physical size or money.

The most powerful men (with the exception of George Bush Sr.) go for the most beautiful and desirous and youngest women that they feel they can get.

Argue all you want, the facts bear this out. Don't believe me? As an experiment, check out the online personal ads. Look through 100 or so ads posted by females. Pick out the 10 most beautiful (to you) women between say ages 25-40 and the 10 least desirable looking for a long-term relationship rather than a purely physical liason. The most beautiful will on average DEMAND a taller man (about 6' 3") with well-above average income (around $150,000 per year) and a home-owner. Some differences for various age groups will naturally apply. Now compare to the least attractive and check their requirements and do the math.

Many of you here are younger and seemingly different attraction rules apply, but not really. Once in the "real" adult world for any length of time, the number one attraction to a woman is security followed by confidence and then appearance; perhaps humor and intelligence add somewhat to the equation. Nowhere does any mystical spiritual something come into play. Whether male or female, it all comes down to: "What can you do for me?"

I can already feel the lame anecdote coming on about a beauty and the beast combo...[i/]


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Anonymous

Re: The Illusion of Romantic Love [Re: Swami]
    #1895238 - 09/08/03 06:54 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

wtf? new avatar?


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

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Re: The Illusion of Romantic Love [Re: ]
    #1895241 - 09/08/03 06:56 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Yes, that is a picture of me on a high dose of DMT.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

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Re: The Illusion of Romantic Love [Re: ]
    #1895244 - 09/08/03 06:56 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

same bitter attitude :smirk:

 


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

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Re: The Illusion of Romantic Love [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1895271 - 09/08/03 07:06 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

oh and may your days be filled with cheap meaningless sex my friend.

because everyone knows only suckers believe in Love...


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OfflineLucidsPuppet
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Re: The Illusion of Romantic Love [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1895284 - 09/08/03 07:11 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

infidelGOD said:
oh and may your days be filled with cheap meaningless sex my friend.

because everyone knows only suckers believe in Love...




:lol:


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I feel so used...


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

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Re: The Illusion of Romantic Love [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1895286 - 09/08/03 07:11 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

same bitter attitude

Is acceptance of reality the "way it is", bitter?

Is that negative assessment of me the best you can offer as a point for romantic love being more than mere biology? ("Gee Swami, I cannot refute your statement so I will try the well-worn ad hominem...)"


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineLucidsPuppet
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Re: The Illusion of Romantic Love [Re: Swami]
    #1895314 - 09/08/03 07:25 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Jeebus Swami, u could put God himself in Therapy with all
this reductionism... :tongue: 


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I feel so used...


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

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Re: The Illusion of Romantic Love [Re: LucidsPuppet]
    #1895339 - 09/08/03 07:32 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Do you have a point to make?


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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineHereticalOrthodoxy
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Re: The Illusion of Romantic Love [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1895351 - 09/08/03 07:36 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

My take is that what is sold as romantic love is a denial of reality in that it does not accept suffering and sacrifice. Meaningful relationships can be built, but they are not fairy tales, they require a taming of the self and mindful attention to our higher selves. There is no one it is so easy to disparage, take for granted or hurt as a mate. The illusions of romantic love perpetuated by vapid movies (made-to-fit-one-another soul mates and frictionless unions) result in attempts to live fantasy the failure of which result in unspoken hostility and divorce.
Love should be about mutual elevation, but yes, the personal ads are full of what the world is full of: people with an unhealthy fixation on the accumulation of material goods. Lovely ladies with materialistic hearts are likely to parley thier looks into cash via rich men looking for trophy wives.
However, I do believe a love deeper than materiarial grasping can be had, indeed I think I have an example of it in my life. It looks nothing like the movies. It has involved painful adjustments of small failings for both of us. It has weathered fury, lust, stupidity and pride. It is not a panecea, it does not end the search for meaning in life and "happily ever after" takes more than just being there. But there is a "mystical spiritual something" to use your phrase Swami. Life is a mystical spiritual something, and finding another "I" to share in it is nity-grity spirituality, it has edges and thorns, just like most things.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: The Illusion of Romantic Love [Re: Swami]
    #1895359 - 09/08/03 07:37 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

So just because physical appearance is an important factor, that means romantic love doesn't exist?  :wtf:


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineLucidsPuppet
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Re: The Illusion of Romantic Love [Re: Swami]
    #1895361 - 09/08/03 07:39 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Do you have a point to make?



Other than to jest about everything and
break the shackles of seriousness and
self importance...no not really, I have
no point to make at all... I seem to
be unwelcome here, I'll go outside n howl
at the moon now...


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I feel so used...


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: The Illusion of Romantic Love [Re: Swami]
    #1895363 - 09/08/03 07:39 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

there was no ad hominem there as I was just describing the tone of your post. I don't think you're a bitter person at all.

but I think your being pretty cynical here. you say love is an illusion.. yet I'm certain that you have felt it sometime in your life, and saw it as something Real and wonderful. maybe you got older and wiser... but was it not real when you felt it? Is it not real when I feel it? when other young people feel it? why? because you've reduced it to a "business deal"?

OK so you probably already think I'm a sap for believing in love... let me put it this way - some people reduce the psychedelic experience to a chemical interaction in the brain and say that the experience is an "illusion". But whatever the cause, it is real, we've all felt it. whatever you may believe, Isn't it still a powerful experience that can be life-changing?


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InvisibleTrippeeChik
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Re: The Illusion of Romantic Love [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1895430 - 09/08/03 08:03 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

'the illusion of statistics'


--------------------
look buddy,,


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Offlinemetalchimp
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Re: The Illusion of Romantic Love [Re: HereticalOrthodoxy]
    #1895442 - 09/08/03 08:09 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

off the subject completely but did you know that nitty-gritty was the bowels of a slave ship were called, this was where the female slaves were taken to be raped, "lets get down to the nitty-gritty"

on subject, on a basic (& cynical) level I would agree with swami most (unthinking) women & men are functioning on that level, what they think is important,

love never has or will be the way disney or films portray it, thats what we'd like but its not that easy (never is)
It is however very real, I think you are deliberately ignoring interactions between people because they are too complex to synopsize into a theory,
I have been & will continue to be in love till I die, unfortunately I am no longer with the one I love & after a year am coming to terms with living without that person
you shouldnt lump everyone into that catagory just because most people are shortsighted, people in ads are aiming too high materialistically, thus necessitating the need to take out a personal ad!
instead they should be concentrating on the person, not the accessorys (money, wealth beauty)


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Invisiblemr crisper
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Re: The Illusion of Romantic Love [Re: Swami]
    #1895514 - 09/08/03 08:38 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

is it not a 'survival of the fittest' scenario translated into a modern context?
the female of the species seeks a mate to most able to provide her with food, security, etc. in the cases of animals that operate in groups, the dominant male is generally the one that gets to sow his seed. by our umm modern enlightened standards, being loaded with $$$ is a form of security and a means to obtain food and comfort.

beauty and strength are the opposite extremes of the same thing, just as hot and cold are the extremes of temperature.
hence, great beauty requires an opposing degree of strength (read money, power) to create balance.
am i getting too simplistic here?
love? a happy by-product? is love a human only premise? i have read of elephants who were devoted to their mates. at the death of one the other never left its partners place of death, pined away and died.


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OfflineGanjaManDan
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Re: The Illusion of Romantic Love [Re: mr crisper]
    #1895577 - 09/08/03 08:56 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Swami, what you said is so true...

Except for lots of people around the world who are truly in love...

An example? My parents :P


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OfflineRastafari
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Re: The Illusion of Romantic Love [Re: GanjaManDan]
    #1895966 - 09/08/03 11:09 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

GanjaMan!, I completely agree with you!

What swami said is mostly true... romantic love is very selfish... when two people come together its like two beggars because they both want from each other...

true love is compassion and giving...it needs nothing... but one thing that Swami left out is that alot of people see a girl or a man as a holding pure love... which is an illusion... but the intention is still to find happiness and that can lead to selfless love which has raised alot of very beautiful people

The people of the earth who I see that shine with love (not romantic) had to have been born to somone...and their parents are amazing roll models... we have all had feelings of lust and looked at the prettiest girls... but in the end our intentions were only to gain happiness and those methods obviously dont hold it for us... swans mate for life... and I think that although the love of another person is not going to liberate us from our suffering... that alot of good things have come from it and there exists some very pure intended romantic-love...

a saint once said (not reffering to romantic love) that Love (compassion, forgiveness, patients, wisdom) is the one thing that we can give which will never diminish

I think appreciating what we have (counting our blessings) and finding contentment can lead to alot of happiness and pure love which cant be obtained outside of ourselfs...

were always looking outside of ourselfs... in twinkies...in pretty girls... which holds the most happiness for i? when I think about how in the blink of an eye I will be no more than dust I want to help people who suffer and that to me is the most valuable and fulfilling...

it feels better to give than to receive IME....this love is also a method to eliminate ego and selfishness i beleive


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I&I


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InvisibleAutonomous
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Re: The Illusion of Romantic Love [Re: Swami]
    #1896178 - 09/09/03 12:01 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Once in the "real" adult world for any length of time, the number one attraction to a woman is security followed by confidence and then appearance; perhaps humor and intelligence add somewhat to the equation.




Do you offer classes on understanding women? Seriously, different women are attracted to different types of men. How about those women who are attracted to losers who beat them and their children? What you are are writing about is not romantic love. Oftentimes, romantic love will conflict with the types of standards you describe and most women will go for the security over romance (for long term relationships).


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"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: The Illusion of Romantic Love [Re: Autonomous]
    #1896241 - 09/09/03 12:19 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

you can't put a statistic on an emotion. I'd like to find the "expert" who would research this. Anyway, I agree that more beautiful women have "higher" standards, but I think romantic love exists. I do however agree with the fact that most women want security, and then confidence, but man there are other ways. I've seen plenty of examples of how a guy can treat a chick like shit, have NO money, and she still stays only because he can, for lack of a better terms, dick her down well. I think its only when we don't have expectations for someone and really appreciate who they are that real love will exist. and I know this has happened upon many occasions.


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: The Illusion of Romantic Love [Re: Autonomous]
    #1896292 - 09/09/03 12:28 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

How about those women who are attracted to losers who beat them and their children?
Should we shift the discussion to highly neurotic people?

What you are are writing about is not romantic love.
This is addressed to anyone here, not just you. If a relationship is based on mutual giving (you take care of my needs and I will take care of yours) then how is that different than any other business deal? A service offered in exchange for a service is what romantic love is.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: The Illusion of Romantic Love [Re: GanjaManDan]
    #1896322 - 09/09/03 12:34 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Except for lots of people around the world who are truly in love...
Ah, true love. True love is only determined in retrospect. My grandparents were married for 52 years then divorced. Guess it wasn't true love. Lisa Presely married for a short time then found it was not "true love".

An example? My parents :P
And do they not have a quid pro quo relationship? Would the relationship not dissolve if one partner put in a great deal more than the other? The relationship ONLY continues when both parties feel their needs are being met (as in any business deal).


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: The Illusion of Romantic Love [Re: kaiowas]
    #1896331 - 09/09/03 12:36 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I've seen plenty of examples of how a guy can treat a chick like shit...

So is this is your example of a romantic or a neurotic relationship?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleJellric
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Re: The Illusion of Romantic Love [Re: Swami]
    #1896343 - 09/09/03 12:38 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

A service offered in exchange for a service is what romantic love is.




Thank you, Dr. Phil.


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I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: The Illusion of Romantic Love [Re: Jellric]
    #1896407 - 09/09/03 12:54 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

OK, let's shift gears here for a moment. Here are a couple of typical statements about me. (Could be anyone.)

Person A: I like the Swam because he is funny and makes me think.

Person B: I hate Swami because his cynicism and sarcasm is irritating to me.

In neither case does the person's affinity/repulsion towards me have anything to do with some mystical, ineffable quality of mine; merely their emotional response to my words.

Both Person A and B are solely concerned with how THEY feel when reading a post; not about my being.

Shifting back, I love my woman because I feel great when I am around her. Selfishness in action.





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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineRastafari
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Re: The Illusion of Romantic Love [Re: Swami]
    #1896490 - 09/09/03 01:30 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Swami I agree with what your saying... selfishness is a big problem in this world...

but to asess ganjaman's parents as a business deal is an extreme over generalization... I see alot of the problems of people worried about 'me' and 'my' as well...its very abundant... but there exists in this world alot of very pure people who do alot of good for the world... how did it come to be that people reproduce? shiva + parvati was not a selfish relationship... isnt the ego an after-the-fact of creation? an illusion? I beleive that this selfishness you speak of although very abundant in todays society...is not the way it always has been...and if you look at two birds who spend their life together...the love seems very pure

sure we may be seeking refuge in another person...and sure it may be an illusion... but that doesnt make it simply a business deal...our intentions are to find pure love and although we seek in the wrong places I think alot of good and very pure relationships have happend and continue to...

The love my parents have given me is very selfless and they have taught me a great wisdom... I see in this society alot of 'me' and 'my's as well.... swami arent we very selfish for sitting here in a chair while people out there are starving and have no water

you never gave an alternative to the illusion of romance... is there no hope?

what is true love?

"alot of people wont get no supper tonight...alot of people going have to suffer tonight"
how will we help them?^

eliminating selfishness and utilizing compassion in action is a very good start I beleive

to a child his parents are god and his only refuge...the love they teach him is what has created alot of very good people on the earth...
that is a very important part of nature and I think this illusion you speak of is an after the fact problem of an egotistical society and is not always the case


--------------------
I&I


Edited by Rastafari (09/09/03 01:32 AM)


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: The Illusion of Romantic Love [Re: Rastafari] * 1
    #1896568 - 09/09/03 01:58 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

The love my parents have given me is very selfless...
Is it selfless? You are their genetic material passed on. Their form of immortality - a piece of themselves. This "love" is instinctual and biologically imprinted and is no different than what most animal parents would do for their offspring.

and sure it may be an illusion... but that doesnt make it simply a business deal...
It doesn't? What happens when one partner no longer sexually satisfies the other? When the breadwinner stays unemployed for too long? When one partner puts on 100 pounds while the other stays lean and fit? When ones needs are no longer met, the relationship is over (even if they stay together for dubious reasons).


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineRastafari
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Re: The Illusion of Romantic Love [Re: Swami]
    #1896618 - 09/09/03 02:15 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

these problems you speak of only occur while you are under the influence of ego.

what do you mean about the biological part? do you beleive this universe is a scientific experiment and if so, why seek anything spiritual?

the love my parents gave me, was selfless because they put I before themselfs...they also taught me to help people who suffer and because of that I was passed on a great love for eliminating selfishness.


--------------------
I&I


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Invisibleenacid
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a [Re: kaiowas]
    #1896660 - 09/09/03 02:27 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

a


Edited by enacid (08/16/08 02:16 PM)


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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: The Illusion of Romantic Love [Re: silversoul7]
    #1897175 - 09/09/03 05:55 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

So just because physical appearance is an important factor, that means romantic love doesn't exist?  :wtf:



I agree, the conclusion doesn't follow. I would rather say that romantic love may arise from an attraction, and that attractions are caused (statistically speaking) by qualities that make a person eligible for partnership, and that partnerships in turn are basically business deals.
 


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Offlineunlikelyhero
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Re: The Illusion of Romantic Love [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1897309 - 09/09/03 07:51 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

There's a difference between 'Hollywood love' - the way it's portrayed through books and films. Love is really something you define yourself and you should try as hard as possible to resist other people's interpretations of it.

UH


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They lie about marijuana. Tell you pot-smoking makes you unmotivated. Lie! When you're high, you can do everything you normally do, just as well. You just realize that it's not worth the fucking effort. There is a difference - Bill Hicks


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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
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Re: The Illusion of Romantic Love [Re: Swami]
    #1897325 - 09/09/03 08:15 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

"I can already feel the lame anecdote coming on about a beauty and the beast combo..."






i hate to dissapoint :grin:




 


--------------------
"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"



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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: The Illusion of Romantic Love [Re: Swami]
    #1897420 - 09/09/03 09:39 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I guess it's time for the Swami Erotic Challenge, right?

Well, not really. Love is not an objective measurable thing, thus there is no point arguing over the illusiveness of it.

You are making some observations (probably correct) on the male/female patterns of attraction and that's about it. That is truly incapable of denying the mystical spiritual something to come into play.

And I do not think that erotic, romantic love means unselfishness, as it often involves possessiveness and abuse.


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InvisibleAutonomous
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Re: The Illusion of Romantic Love [Re: Swami]
    #1897627 - 09/09/03 11:30 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Should we shift the discussion to highly neurotic people?



No, we should talk about romantic love. You apparently conflate the concept of romantic love with attraction based on practicalities. Although the two may co-exist and there is very often elements of both, they are not the same thing. As a matter of fact, to be romantic implies that something is not practical but quixotic.


Quote:

This is addressed to anyone here, not just you. If a relationship is based on mutual giving (you take care of my needs and I will take care of yours) then how is that different than any other business deal? A service offered in exchange for a service is what romantic love is.



You are wrong. You hold a different concept of romantic love than most people (particularly women) I've encountered, see above comments. If you redefine a term so you can knock it down, isn't that a 'straw man?'


--------------------
"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: The Illusion of Romantic Love [Re: Autonomous]
    #1897639 - 09/09/03 11:37 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Please share your definition of romantic love.

Wilt Chamberlain had over 10,000 female lovers because:

A. He was a superstar.

B. He was the ultimate alpha male.

C. He was a near-giant.

D. He was supremely confident.

E. He was a soulmate to each and every lover and had some mystical quality.

"But Swami, that is not romantic love, but pure sex/lust."

Perhaps, but I would bet that hundreds of those women would have married him in a second believing they were experiencing "romantic love".


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleAutonomous
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Re: The Illusion of Romantic Love [Re: Swami]
    #1897652 - 09/09/03 11:46 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
"But Swami, that is not romantic love, but pure sex/lust."



Exactly (with a good dose of 'gold digging').

Quote:

Perhaps, but I would bet that hundreds of those women would have married him in a second believing they were experiencing "romantic love".



Have you read their minds? Have you read my statements? You have given us an example of women who are after the material, who consider that man a prize, not common romantic love. There may have been some elements of romantic notions in some of these women's heads, but it is obvious that for the most part such feelings weren't mutual. If you want a primer on romantic love, perhaps you should revisit the story of Romeo and Juliet.


--------------------
"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: The Illusion of Romantic Love [Re: Autonomous]
    #1897660 - 09/09/03 11:54 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

If you want a primer...

No, I want your defintion, not a piece of fiction. Stop side-stepping.

How often does an 18 y.o. man fall romantically in love with a 58 y.o. woman? Almost never, because romance is sexual/biological; not mystical.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: The Illusion of Romantic Love [Re: Swami] * 1
    #1897735 - 09/09/03 12:32 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Damn, Swami, I feel sorrier and sorrier for you the better I get to know you. Here you are, spitting out yet another "It isnt real for me, so it isnt real for anyone." statement.

And what is your statistical data to back this up? Personal Ads? You don't think that the fact that these people put personal adds on the internet kind of takes them apart from the general populace? How can you make the assumption that they accurately reflect the totality of human nature?

Don't get me wrong, in my darkest hours, romantically speaking at least, I would definitely agree with your cynical thoughts on romance. There are definitely a lot of superficial people out there. Superficiality tends to come with low intelligence.

You have professed to have an IQ of 180. That really narrows your dating pool to about one percent of the population. 99 out of every 100 women you meet are going to seem stupid and superficial. That doesnt mean that there arent intelligent ladies out there who have less materialistic standards. You just need to start looking for them in the right places.

I know a lot of broke guys who have beautiful women that pay their rent. How does that fit in to your theory? I know gorgeous women with 180 IQs that work as waitresses and are content with simple pleasures in life. They are not looking for anything in a man but a faithful companion. Are they the majority? Of course not, but they do exist.

There is a serious difference between love and casual sex. If I ask a girl out, then spend all the requisite $$ on her and play all the little romantic games I'm supposed to and she hops in the sak with me, it certainly isn't love. But occaisionally, a girl asks me out, doesn't expect me to pay anything and bases her estimation of me on my character, not my assets. That really blows my mind, and then I find myself in love.

I think its really all a question of intelligence and drive. Some women see their pussy as a "ticket to ride" and have no aspirations in life other than finding a man using the most superficial of standards. Other women have goals and aspirations, and the intelligence with which to pursue them. These are driven women who can sustain themselves. If they get romantically involved, money and power has nothing to do with it.

Maybe you should spend some time in Europe. Or at a University. Not all women who go to college seek an MRS degree. Some of them have every intention of following carreer goals and self-actualizing, rather than latching onto some man for support. Status- and gold- digging is not a part of their romantic drive.

Whenever I find myself having these cynical thoughts about romance I slap myself in the face for being whiny and immature. Aren't you supposed to be "decades older than me"?


--------------------
'You can go to a hospital
Get yourself cleaned out.'


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Invisiblefarfelu
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Re: The Illusion of Romantic Love [Re: Swami]
    #1897788 - 09/09/03 12:51 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:

Whether male or female, it all comes down to: "What can you do for me?"
   




For me, Romantic Love is like Worcestershire Sauce for "What can you do for me?" (wcydfm)

wcydfm is plain meat, biology, survival, economics, boring (not you personally Swami or realists or realism in general). The notion of Romantic Love presents us with a possibilty; adds spice to wcydfm. Tastes great! :heart: 


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: The Illusion of Romantic Love [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1897796 - 09/09/03 12:54 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Damn, Swami, I feel sorrier and sorrier for you the better I get to know you.
You don't know me at all.

Here you are, spitting out yet another "It isnt real for me, so it isnt real for anyone." statement.
I have made a "this is the way things are" statement which no one has yet made a strong point against.

And what is your statistical data to back this up?
A near 50% divorce rate in the USA is a good swath of the general public wouldn't you say? Or should we go to the battered women stats? Or perhaps spousal murder might convince you more...

Don't get me wrong, in my darkest hours, romantically speaking at least, I would definitely agree with your cynical thoughts on romance.
Once again; if something is factual, is it cyncial?

There are definitely a lot of superficial people out there.
There is no mysterious place called "out there". ALL people act in their own best ineterest ALL the time.

You have professed to have an IQ of 180. That really narrows your dating pool to about one percent of the population. 99 out of every 100 women you meet are going to seem stupid and superficial.
IQ has never been a dating requirement. All people are gifted in different ways.

I know a lot of broke guys who have beautiful women that pay their rent. How does that fit in to your theory?
And the women is getting nothing in exchange for her companionship? Of course she is. It is still a business exchange. maybe the guy is great in bed or a good talker that boosts her self-esteem.

I know gorgeous women with 180 IQs that work as waitresses and are content with simple pleasures in life.
Phone number please...

But occaisionally, a girl asks me out, doesn't expect me to pay anything and bases her estimation of me on my character, not my assets. That really blows my mind, and then I find myself in love.
Because she has given you what you most need at the time - reassurance of your basic worth as a human-being.

Other women have goals and aspirations, and the intelligence with which to pursue them. These are driven women who can sustain themselves. If they get romantically involved, money and power has nothing to do with it.
Au contraire mon ami. I emotionally supported a mature, financially secure woman with a PHd through four major life crisis over 5 years. We were soulmates if there ever was. She left me to trade up materially.

Status- and gold- digging is not a part of their romantic drive.
ALL women seek security in some fashion. It is their basic drive.

Whenever I find myself having these cynical thoughts about romance I slap myself in the face for being whiny and immature. Aren't you supposed to be "decades older than me"?
False correlation! Your whininess has nothing to do with me.



--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Edited by Swami (09/09/03 01:28 PM)


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: The Illusion of Romantic Love [Re: Swami]
    #1897898 - 09/09/03 01:23 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

I have made a "this is the way things are" statement which no one has yet made a strong point against




so, if no one can disprove it, its true? Still waiting for your disproof of God and the Afterlife, btw.

Quote:

A near 50% divorce rate in the USA is a good swath of the general public wouldn't you say? Or should we go to the battered women stats? Or perhaps spousal murder might convince you more...





I am not arguing about the majority. If your point is "the majority of romantic relationships are superficially based", then I agree. But majority is not totality.

Quote:

ALL people act in their own best ineterest ALL the time.




Swami, swami, swami. Tisk Tisk. Its overgeneralized statements like that which make people doubt the objectivity of your skepticism.

Quote:

And the women is getting nothing in exchange for her companionship? Of course she is. It is still a business exchange.




Not a big believer in altruism, huh? I know this is off-topic, but what about situations in which people have given their lives for others, like when that plane crashed into the freezing lake, and that one passenger kept handing the helicopter rope to others who couldn't grasp it? He froze and drowned. No mutual exchange there.

Quote:

IQ has never been a dating requirement.




Maybe it should be. Do you hoestly expect those of lower intelligence to have enough intellectually in common with you to forge a significant rapport?

Quote:

All people are gifted in different ways.



Agreed. But there should be a general equivalence in aptitude, even if both aptitudes are in different areas.

Quote:

Because she has given you what you most need at the time - reassurance of your basic worth as a human-being.




Yup, and I gave that right back to her. This, along with intellectual things we shared, was the basis for our relationship. How is material exchange involved?

Quote:

I emotionally supported a mature, financially secure woman with a PHd through four major life crisis over 5 years. We were soulmates if there ever was. She left me to trade up materially.




I am really sorry to hear that, man. Stuff like that has happened to me too. But I am careful not to let my biterness in regards to one person screw up my entire worldview. Just because some, indeed, MOST people are shitheads doesnt mean they all are.

Quote:

ALL women seek security in some fashion. It is their basic drive.




Many women seek security internally, and would never think of relying on a man for it.


BTW, swami, how do gay and lesbian relationships fit in to all this?




--------------------
'You can go to a hospital
Get yourself cleaned out.'


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: The Illusion of Romantic Love [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1897950 - 09/09/03 01:36 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Yup, and I gave that right back to her.
This is called a business exhange. Value for value - pure and simple.

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ALL people act in their own best ineterest ALL the time.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Swami, swami, swami. Tisk Tisk. Its overgeneralized statements like that which make people doubt the objectivity of your skepticism.

Not a big believer in altruism, huh? I know this is off-topic, but what about situations in which people have given their lives for others, like when that plane crashed into the freezing lake, and that one passenger kept handing the helicopter rope to others who couldn't grasp it? He froze and drowned. No mutual exchange there.

The rescuer did it BECAUSE HE WANTED TO. He GOT SOMETHING out of it. Perhaps he wanted acclaim from others or a permanent place in heaven, which are selfish reasons. Perhaps he was enculturated in a certain religious morality that left him no choice, but to act in such a manner. If he had no real choice then it was the act of a robot merely performing his programming, now wasn't it?



--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: The Illusion of Romantic Love [Re: Swami]
    #1897999 - 09/09/03 01:50 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

The rescuer did it BECAUSE HE WANTED TO



maybe. not definitely

Quote:

He GOT SOMETHING out of it.




yeah- he got frostbite and a watery death. Since so many people died on that flight, no one knows that man's name to this day.

I appreciate your theories on why this happened. I don't appreciate your representation of these theories as unchallengeable fact.

try to play by your own rules, eh swami


--------------------
'You can go to a hospital
Get yourself cleaned out.'


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Invisiblefarfelu
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Re: The Illusion of Romantic Love [Re: Swami]
    #1898011 - 09/09/03 01:54 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

. . . She left me to trade up materially.

That'll sour the sauce. Better to have loved. . . eh? right. :frown:

edit: What I mean to say here Swami is that I am sorry for your loss. But I know words don't help much.


Edited by farfelu (09/10/03 12:04 AM)


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OfflineRastafari
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Re: The Illusion of Romantic Love [Re: farfelu]
    #1898469 - 09/09/03 04:14 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I think we would all be alot more happy if we didnt focus on the negative things in life

i truely beleive the negative things are a temporary part of life...and the positive ones eternal

so in the scheme of infinity, its a waste of time looking for problems in the world when we are so blind to see the beauty

yeah we do have to identify our mistakes (not identify WITH our mistakes) to correct them... but I've found that in this world so many of us have this conditioning of looking for the bad things... like its all that exists... its not true ~!!!!!

the height of goodness exists in this world and i seen em


--------------------
I&I


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InvisibleAutonomous
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Re: The Illusion of Romantic Love [Re: Swami]
    #1899037 - 09/09/03 06:41 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
No, I want your defintion, not a piece of fiction. Stop side-stepping.




I didn't side step, I stated earlier, "... to be romantic implies that something is not practical but quixotic." Apparently you either ignored this or didn't understand. Romantic love is NOT based on what is practical (although the relationship may also work out that way). Romantic love is an idealized love, it has a component of blind acceptance of the shortcomings of another, the person who is an object of romantic love is often seen without faults. Romantic love can exhibit itself in behavior that denies the physical and material well being of an individual who is experiencing his/her love for another.

If you are looking to understand romantic love, it is illogical to look at personal ads. These do not offer a description nor any insight into the concept, but merely advertise what a person wants prior to even meeting another. Romantic love comes into play later, if at all, and oftentimes involves an abandonment of such criteria that a person may have thought were necessary at an earlier time.

From wordreference.com (bolded emphasis is my own):
romantic
1 of, relating to, imbued with, or characterized by romance
2 evoking or given to thoughts and feelings of love, esp. idealized or sentimental love
example: a romantic woman
example: a romantic setting
3 impractical, visionary, or idealistic
example: a romantic scheme


--------------------
"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain


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Re: The Illusion of Romantic Love [Re: kaiowas]
    #1899217 - 09/09/03 07:22 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

He never replies when you do come up with a good point, as infedelgod has just found out!

Why Swami do u ask for a good arguement then refuse to respond when u can't belittle somebody.

If you wana b real, then except that your attitude would soon have you K.Oed in the real world.


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InvisiblePhalanxx
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Re: The Illusion of Romantic Love [Re: Ego Death]
    #1899280 - 09/09/03 07:33 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

My own opinion is that men are most concerned about looks, and women are most concerned with wealth and status. Women can be such greedy bitches, but men can be so shallow by judging women on beauty.

As for love, it does exist, but the reasons are subconcious. Physical appearance, wealth, status, even smell all play a role, but it comes together subconciously as one unit and becomes concious in the form of love. I think. :loveeyes: 


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