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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Negativity and Realism
    #2354935 - 02/19/04 03:42 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I am frequently accused of being negative. Naturally I don't see it that way. Now I don't want this thread to be about me, but here is my point:

If I research a subject and find it to have no validity and report it as such, then how is that negative? Should we cling to superstition, myth, and fraud merely because it makes us feel good or is the truth more important than our temporary emotional state?


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Negativity and Realism [Re: Swami]
    #2354945 - 02/19/04 03:46 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

You aren't negative, from what I perceive of you. :thumbup:

And the truth is always more important. :grin:
Peace.


--------------------
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: Negativity and Realism [Re: Swami]
    #2354996 - 02/19/04 03:58 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah, I think you're on the level, too.. it's weird how sanity is relative, and yet I think I'm right.. haha.. it's like, everyone thinks they're right.

But none the less, we're on similar pages.  :crazy:


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Re: Negativity and Realism [Re: Swami]
    #2355491 - 02/19/04 05:43 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Emotions are powerful. Balance is not easy; for some, it might as well be deemed impossible.

Alot of it has to do with the ego.
And while most (here, too) know that egocentrism is something to be avoided... they don't really understand all the forms it takes.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Negativity and Realism [Re: Sclorch]
    #2355623 - 02/19/04 06:11 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I've recognized a lot of its forms but a lot of them continue to be played around with... I was thinking something along these lines today, but I must go to bed for now... I'll make a post about it sometime (I am desperately in need of new post fodder) :lol:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineSpecialEd
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Re: Negativity and Realism [Re: Swami]
    #2355666 - 02/19/04 06:19 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

The worm reveals its fangs.

In my perception, nobody views you as negative. Freudian Slip!!!


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
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Re: Negativity and Realism [Re: Swami]
    #2355756 - 02/19/04 06:38 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Should we cling to superstition, myth, and fraud merely because it makes us feel good

I do it for practical reasons


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Negativity and Realism [Re: Swami]
    #2355768 - 02/19/04 06:40 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I wouldn't say you are negative, Swami...but a lot of times the way in which you word things makes your views come accross as quite negative :smirk:


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

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Re: Negativity and Realism [Re: trendal]
    #2355893 - 02/19/04 07:04 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I guess when you say it like it is, and people would rather be told soothing lies. the truth can come across as being quite negative.


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OfflineOtto
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Re: Negativity and Realism [Re: Swami]
    #2355915 - 02/19/04 07:09 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I think the "data" is what must be looked at with skepticism. We, as in humans, somehow think that we are able to have all knowlege at a given moment in time. We thought for sure the world was flat and now look how silly that sounds. In the future there are going to be some major assumptions, that the current "data" supports (or that we have no data against), that people are going to look back and say "How the hell did they believe that?".

Do some reading on quantum mechanics. I am not as well versed in it as I would like to be, but QM is the current accepted model of reality. It explains all observable phenomena (unlike Newtonian mechanics). There are different ways to interpret quantum theory, but interesting part that is built in is that everything depends on an observer. In newtonian mechanics everything can be known about a paticular object. In QM though the act of observation alters reality. You can never know everything about anything. This is the way all of the atoms behave that we are composed of....WOW

Now I mention QM to point out how crazy shit really is. To think that some observed macroscopic phenomena is all there is to a paticular phenomena is silly. There is so much we don't know.

It is always good to go over the current accepted facts about things, but to this point with everything I know about biology, chemistry, and philosphy the fact that I am a thinking, feeling, conscious human being has never been explained (nor do I think it ever will be).

I think that is why a lot of us are here. To explore those unknown that we "feel" as real, but can't neccisariy explain. It is good to have all the facts about a given phenomena (ie.. meditating increases certain brain waves") such as a realist would present. But
discussion about the "non-facts" is just as important if not more.

I think I've said enough. I haven't posted a lot here, but I read a lot of these threads. Its nice to find some place where intellegent discussion goes on. And Swami, I always enjoy your posts. It's nice to have a diffent view. But I think you have my reasons now why I think the realist position is flawed.

Otto


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OfflinePed
Interested In Your Brain
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Re: Negativity and Realism [Re: Swami]
    #2356607 - 02/19/04 09:41 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

As human beings, we place heavy emphasis on observations which multiple persons agree upon. We assume truth in convention; this is our habit. The more widespread the convention, the more widespread the assumption that a certain phenomenon or idea is inherently correct. This is the very foundation upon which Science has been built. If an observation can be demonstrated repeatedly to many unique observers, it is considered a fact. For example, all of us can observe the effects of gravity. When the effects of gravity are measured, we consider those measurements as being factual. However, certain experiments in particle physics have only limited repeatability. Since the results of these experiments do not readily form conventions, the measurements drawn from these experiments are considered theory, propositions, or mere conjecture.

There is a certain finality to the statement "It's a scientific fact." Such a statement, if validly based, carries weighty authority in all of our minds. And so this is realism, the cherishing of convention. Convention wears the crown in the Western world.

A likely explanation for realism being associated with negativity has to do with the unfortunate circumstances which have gripped the world from which we draw our conventions. Indeed, if there is nothing beyond what our conventions have informed us, then there is nothing beyond famine, war, misery, and the tragic affair of the seemingly inescapable mundane human existence.

The artistic nature of spirituality is not capturable in the form of hard data which can then be passed around a lecture room and agreed upon thusly. By it's nature, spirituality is unconventional. Science is founded upon agreeability, repeatability, and upon articulations which can be shared and discussed in a controlled manner. At first glance, spirituality offers none of these things. Being that the insights gained through spiritual practice are deeply esoteric, any discovery can only be expressed in music, poetry, lore, riddles and jokes, or by example. All of these methods are interpreted uniquely by any observer. In spirituality, there can be no convention. To the rational mind, this is not credible. It is ludicrous.

Unfortunately, some spiritual schools have taken these deeply esoteric experiences and packaged them into conventions. The belief in God, though not verifyable, has become a convention. The belief in karma, though not immediately observable, has become a convention. The belief in the omniscient Buddha mind, though not instantly attainable, has become a convention. Without any investigation, entire nations have embraced as fact these views, which are hazy like mist. How distasteful it is to the rational mind, for conventions to be formed without repeatable evidence.

But why has this happened? Why have such personal and otherwise invisible discoveries only perfected by a rare handful of individuals such as Jesus and The Buddha been embraced as convention? The answer is clear. Spirituality promises something quite desirable. Instead of famine, it promises inexhaustible bliss. Instead of war, it promises immeasurable harmony. Instead of misery, it promises uninterrupted and eternal bliss. Instead of the mundane, spirituality promises the supramundane. It is quite natural that human beings, all of which wish to escape suffering and problems, would grasp at these promises and derrive a sense of stregnth, durability, or even self-importance from them.

And so faith is then equated with ignorance. How appalling this must be to the realist! Insulting! Not only have conventions been formed without valid investigation, they have been motivated by escapism, driven by fear and supersition! And so, the realist ego becomes very uncomfortable, and with great haste and must fluster, it washes it's hands of all spiritual matters.

Since the realist cherishes convention, the realist attempts to adopt any spiritual idea in conventional terms. He will always be unsuccessful. As has been discussed, in true spirituality there can be no convention. Therefore, spirituality is seen as unverifyable, and with the many failed and poorly motivated attempts to maintain spiritual conventions throughout the world, spirituality has lost much of it's credibility. As a result, realism, though empty of hope filled with despair, has earned it's place as king, and sits atop it's technological empire, polishing it's crown.

Doncha just love this hilarious and ongoing drama?


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Negativity and Realism [Re: trendal]
    #2356807 - 02/19/04 10:27 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Did you NOT read my note: "Now I don't want this thread to be about me..."?

I am talking about the age-old "killing" of the messenger who brings unwanted news. Some people did not like my posting of the "Optimism has no effect on Cancer" story as if I was doing something hurtful.

Some bubbles "need" to be popped.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Negativity and Realism [Re: Swami]
    #2356813 - 02/19/04 10:28 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

some bubbles need to be made


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

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Re: Negativity and Realism [Re: Ped]
    #2356884 - 02/19/04 10:42 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Spirituality promises something quite desirable. Instead of famine, it promises inexhaustible bliss. Instead of war, it promises immeasurable harmony. Instead of misery, it promises uninterrupted and eternal bliss. Instead of the mundane, spirituality promises the supramundane. It is quite natural that human beings, all of which wish to escape suffering and problems, would grasp at these promises and derrive a sense of stregnth, durability, or even self-importance from them.
Certainly it promises, but does it deliver? If Jesus (or other alleged Master) touched only two souls and those two souls touched only two more souls and so on for each generation, the entire world would be a paradise of cooperation and brotherhood. Instead, NOTHING basic has changed IMHO since Jesus visited the planet.

And so faith is then equated with ignorance. How appalling this must be to the realist! Insulting!
Certainly for without something to grasp onto, I could have "faith" that the dust-bunny under my bed (or the neighbor's dog) is God incarnate and directing my life. Not to go too far afield, but have you ever noticed how many mentally ill people that go off the deep end (whether the Texan lady who killed her five children or the Son of Sam or Waco or Jonestown or the KKK) have their unstable roots in religion, God and Bible?

Here is the other point. When one speaks of an internal experience, I can hardly question that, but objective stuff like astrology can indeed, be determined to be valid or invalid using conventional means.

BTW, your post was well-written! :thumbup:


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Negativity and Realism [Re: Swami]
    #2356917 - 02/19/04 10:48 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

The Sun.. in it's almighty heavenly glory... sustains our planet with life and energy and heat and the critical radiation and light frequencies necessary for this solar ring's evolution of DNA. Now I cannot back up that last claim, but certainly you must not see anything wrong with the POSITIVITY and REALISM of the Sun, our precious star?


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InvisibleZero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland

Registered: 10/23/02
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Re: Negativity and Realism [Re: Swami]
    #2356935 - 02/19/04 10:49 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Maybe you shouldnt have started off talking about yourself and how others "percieve you as negative". 

Saying that you dont want it to be about you kind of sets up some confusion ther :wink: .

It is implied that you think that you yourself are coming off as negative, because of what you think of yourself as the harbinger of truth. Or whatever you had in mind.

Maybe some people are trying to have a positive look on their life, regardless of whether it will heal them or not. Should people sit their whole life thinking how much it sucks, cause they are gonna die?

Sure... you pop the bubble. But do you offer any consolation? Any kind of acceptance. You prepose a cold hard truth, while not offering an alternative solution.

You as in anyone who brings the "message" with a cold harsh biting sting. Sure i like reality bitch slaps once in a while, and i like to be challenged, but usually when my bubbles have been popped, it takes me a long time to get up on my feet and get past what it was, sometimes not even finding consolation in what i had done wrong.

If you, or anyone, is going to "pop" the bubble, i think it would be wise (if you think you are smart enough to "pop" the bubble in the first place) to offer some alternative thought.

This may not apply to you or anyone else, but then again, thats my own opinion on yours, and other "messengers" behavior. If there is something else you wanted to hear, i dont think anyone is going to give it to you.  Maybe you already know the answer to the question you asked?


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What?


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

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Re: Negativity and Realism [Re: Zero7a1]
    #2357040 - 02/20/04 12:40 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Maybe you shouldnt have started off talking about yourself and how others "percieve you as negative".
I don't believe in "should" or "should not".

Saying that you dont want it to be about you kind of sets up some confusion ther .
Confusion is an internal state. I am NOT responsible for what you think of your perceptions.

It is implied that you think that you yourself are coming off as negative, because of what you think of yourself as the harbinger of truth. Or whatever you had in mind.
It is because of feedback from others who would rather hold onto myths.

Maybe some people are trying to have a positive look on their life, regardless of whether it will heal them or not.
So a dream life is better than looking at "how things are"?

Should people sit their whole life thinking how much it sucks, cause they are gonna die?
I hardly think about how much life sucks, but to play the game one has to know the rules.

Sure... you pop the bubble. But do you offer any consolation? Any kind of acceptance. You prepose a cold hard truth, while not offering an alternative solution.
Sorry, did not closely read my job description. Why should I console? Someone proposes lies (or fantasy at best) and I challenge that. If a friend wants to go to a Filipino psychic surgeon and I show it as bogus so that he can make a "real" decision as to his medical options, I am now supposed to show him that I can cure his cancer? Does that really make sense to you? I should let him waste his money and time on a some fraudulent "therapy"?

You as in anyone who brings the "message" with a cold harsh biting sting. Sure i like reality bitch slaps once in a while, and i like to be challenged, but usually when my bubbles have been popped, it takes me a long time to get up on my feet and get past what it was, sometimes not even finding consolation in what i had done wrong.
So continuation of a wrong idea or habit is better?

If you, or anyone, is going to "pop" the bubble, i think it would be wise (if you think you are smart enough to "pop" the bubble in the first place) to offer some alternative thought.
If we go through the "not this, not this" process; then just maybe we can find what is real. But stopping along the way to worship a false idol certainly leads nowhere.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Edited by Swami (02/20/04 02:34 AM)


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Re: Negativity and Realism [Re: Swami]
    #2357409 - 02/20/04 02:23 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Holy shit... I hope all of you realize that Swami is making all these valid points while slightly inebriated. Want proof? Just check out all those typos in his last post ^

hehehe


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Negativity and Realism [Re: Sclorch]
    #2357476 - 02/20/04 02:37 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

If marijuana were legal (or if a certain bettor sent me some smoke as promised) I wouldn't have to use dangerous spell-warping alcohol before posting...


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
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Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Negativity and Realism [Re: Swami]
    #2357497 - 02/20/04 02:40 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah... speaking of Shroomism... hehe

You funny bastard.  I bet you're drinking canned beer.  :beer:


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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