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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Invisibledblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: will any of us reach enlightenment? [Re: Swami]
    #4863529 - 10/28/05 10:16 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

There are plenty of self-proclaimed masters and thousands of 'feel-good' books, but have yet to see any evidence.

What sort of 'evidence' are you looking for?


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
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Re: will any of us reach enlightenment? [Re: dblaney]
    #4863638 - 10/28/05 10:45 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

How many types are there?

How about the kind that would support the existence of such a phenomenon.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: will any of us reach enlightenment? [Re: dblaney]
    #4863642 - 10/28/05 10:46 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

^ that's another point i could have mentioned but decided not to bother. swami says he's never met an enlightened being. well how do you know swami? did you expect to see a halo around their head? when jesus was alive there were many people who did not recognize him as the living christ.

if you're saying none of the so called masters live according to what they preach i don't think that's necessarily true. there a few very rare instances in which saints or sages have lived according to what they taught.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: will any of us reach enlightenment? [Re: Swami]
    #4863647 - 10/28/05 10:47 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
How many types are there?

How about the kind that would support the existence of such a phenomenon.




he's asking what would support the existance of such a phenomenon. nice try at dodging the question.


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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: will any of us reach enlightenment? [Re: Deviate]
    #4863658 - 10/28/05 10:52 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Dodge?

Why not present the reasons that you believe such a state exists.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
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Posts: 15,413
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Re: will any of us reach enlightenment? [Re: Deviate]
    #4863669 - 10/28/05 10:54 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

swami says he's never met an enlightened being. well how do you know swami? did you expect to see a halo around their head?

How would you recognize one? By their books sales?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: will any of us reach enlightenment? [Re: Swami]
    #4863700 - 10/28/05 11:02 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Dodge?

Why not present the reasons that you believe such a state exists.




because the question is what would qualify as evidence for you, not why i think the way i do. i already stated some of the reasons i believe it exists (refer to my asymptote analogy). to me it makes sense both logically and in accordance with my experience. that is all i need say.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: will any of us reach enlightenment? [Re: Swami]
    #4863703 - 10/28/05 11:04 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
swami says he's never met an enlightened being. well how do you know swami? did you expect to see a halo around their head?

How would you recognize one? By their books sales?




i'm not saying i would recognize one.


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Invisibledblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: will any of us reach enlightenment? [Re: Swami]
    #4863710 - 10/28/05 11:07 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

I personally believe such a state exists because of first hand experiences induced by certain chemicals, experiences induced solely by meditation, and from faith in other people and in their experiences.

What are your reasons for believing such a state does not exist?


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
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Re: will any of us reach enlightenment? [Re: dblaney]
    #4863720 - 10/28/05 11:12 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

I personally believe such a state exists because of first hand experiences induced by certain chemicals

Do people frequently make erroneous conclusions when normal neuronal functioning is interfered with?

Need I reference a zillion trip reports that highlight such errors?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisibledblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: will any of us reach enlightenment? [Re: dblaney]
    #4863736 - 10/28/05 11:17 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Do people frequently make erroneous conclusions when normal neuronal functioning is interfered with?

Absolutely! However, conclusions that I reached while under the influence proved still valid long after coming down. Secondly, my experiences seemed to fit in exactly with tenets of Buddhism and Taoism. Thirdly, the presence of a chemical in the bloodstream and interacting with various neurotransmitters does not make the experience inherently false. For example, if I took LSD and walked down the street and saw a car driving down the road, it does not mean that since I was on LSD it wasn't a car.

And lastly, that was only one of my reasons for believing in the existence of an enlightened state. If you don't like that one still, check out the other ones.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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OfflineDeviate
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Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
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Re: will any of us reach enlightenment? [Re: Swami]
    #4863750 - 10/28/05 11:20 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
I personally believe such a state exists because of first hand experiences induced by certain chemicals

Do people frequently make erroneous conclusions when normal neuronal functioning is interfered with?

Need I reference a zillion trip reports that highlight such errors?





yes, people do frequently reach erronous conclusions when neuronal functioning is interfered with. however, they also frequently make erronous conclusions when it isnt. this whole argument is irrevelent to what we were discussing. why did you reply only to his post and not mine ?


Edited by Deviate (10/28/05 11:23 PM)


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OfflineGomp
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Re: will any of us reach enlightenment? [Re: Sole_Worthy]
    #4863783 - 10/28/05 11:31 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Sole_Worthy said:
Are any of us here at the shroomery going to reach enlightenment?

Surely the pursuit of wisdom needs our full concentrations. 100% of our time spent working for this goal.

I think for me I will never atain true wisdom, hopefuly I will learn a lot and find inner peace though. lol hehe

Some would argue that the ego death is enlightenmnet, but im sure some buddhist monk dude would disagree. 




define enlightenment? :wink:


--------------------


--------------------
Disclaimer!?


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: will any of us reach enlightenment? [Re: dblaney]
    #4864596 - 10/29/05 03:23 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

ondly, my experiences seemed to fit in exactly with tenets of Buddhism and Taoism.

Huh?

1. Buddhism today is far removed from what Buddha preached just like Christianity.

2. There are many, many interpretations that do not agree with each other. So no experience can match all of them.

3. No experience can EXACTLY match words on a page is beyond me. Hell, my first sexual experience, which would be much easier to describe than a mind state, did not EXACTLY match anything I had ever read.

See my post on Apophenia about pattern matching.

4. There is no way to measure or validate an enlightened state except to proclaim it.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisibledblaney
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Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: will any of us reach enlightenment? [Re: Swami]
    #4864655 - 10/29/05 03:44 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

1. This is somewhat true. Both religions have somewhat changed over time and lost some of their original essence, yes. However, I think that this has happened to a lesser degree with Buddhism than with Christianity. Christians seemed to lose the entire idea of love and forgiveness within a few centuries, and waged holy crusades and killed people and hated people as a result. Buddhism evolved into different schools, but when was the last time you heard of a Buddhist army attacking some holy land?

2. This is also true. The different schools of Buddhism do diverge on a few key issues, such as Bhakti and Vedanta (Bhakti says that there is a God with form, and Vedanta says that God is the nondual state). Personally, I believe that 'God' (that word has too much stigma and connotation about it, so I use Tao instead)...so I believe that the Tao is manifest and unmanifest, in this particular realm (again, not such a great word for describing reality).

3. While an event can be described (most of the time, though not so much so when dealing with the Tao), only basic elements will be shared. This is the basis of our objective reality. Otherwise, we would all be a bunch of solipsists, yes?

4. If you change the word 'proclaim' to 'experience', then I'd agree with you. Few, if any, enlightened individuals feel the need to proclaim their enlightenment. It just happens that some of these enlightened individuals were sought after by seekers, and thus they became gurus. The most prominent person is the Buddha, but there's also Christ (some call him belonging to the Christ Consciousness...but that's a whole 'nother story), etc. That's the same with most states of consciousness. If you drink alcohol, your body can be tested for the presence of alcohol and its metabolites, but their presence doesn't necessarily mean that you're drunk (though it's very likely). As for enlightened individuals, there is no such objective test, though just spending time with one of them is generally enough to be proof positive. :smile:


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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OfflineDeviate
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Registered: 04/20/03
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Last seen: 7 years, 4 months
Re: will any of us reach enlightenment? [Re: dblaney]
    #4864811 - 10/29/05 04:25 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

swami what do you believe about different states of consciousness/someone's personal psychology? surely you believe some actions or thoughts are more "enlightened" than others as i often see you critisizing others or pointing out their ego hindrances. how is this possible if there is no enlightenment? pointing out a flaw assumes there is a better possibility. do you think its not possible to fully resolves one's psychological issues? do you think its possible to live life without becomming attatched? both of those could be considered enlightenment. i'm trying to understand how you can not believe in enlightenment and yet still mainstain that personal growth is possible (even if enlightenment is only as asymptote to be approached). what does enlightenment mean to you? what does self improvement mean to you? please let me understand your point of view swami.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: will any of us reach enlightenment? [Re: dblaney]
    #4864830 - 10/29/05 04:30 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

though just spending time with one of them is generally enough to be proof positive

Really?!  :eek: Here is the crux of the matter that I was leading to. Can a blind man can determine who is sighted?

Manson, Jim Jones, Koresh and Rajneesh were ALL considered to be some form of enlightened master by devotees. Seems your litmus test of proximity and subjective 'feeling' is not borne out by history.

Self-deception abounds at every level especially when driven by strong desire.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Registered: 03/16/05
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Re: will any of us reach enlightenment? [Re: Swami]
    #4864852 - 10/29/05 04:37 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

I reached enlightenment. On E in a darkend, silent room for six hours I felt no fear or loneliness, I was complete. My body actually felt light, as in enlightened.

Then I came down.  :grin:

But I was never the same. :wink: :heart:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: will any of us reach enlightenment? [Re: Icelander]
    #4864939 - 10/29/05 05:06 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Perhaps it is all bio-chemical? A unique mindstate brought about by excessive serotonin?

Describe your mindstate that leads you to believe it to be the classic enlightenment.

Once seen, how does one 'unsee' later? Is it merely because serotonin levels return to normal?

In what ways were you changed?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: will any of us reach enlightenment? [Re: Swami]
    #4864955 - 10/29/05 05:12 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Perhaps it is. That's ok with me. I also don't know what classic enlightenment is or feels like so I cannot answer that one.

How have I changed? I am more open and willing to be vulnerable. I take more chances and fear less. I scare some of my men friends because I want to cuddle up to them and tell them how much I love them. :grin:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


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