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 shroomydan
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Registered: 07/04/04
Posts: 4,126
Loc: In the woods
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 Proof that Mushrooms are Sensitive! 
#5606196 - 05/08/06 07:04 PM (19 years, 12 days ago) |
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I have been wanting to make this post for a few years now, but today I finally recorded video to prove it. 
This could easily fit into either the mushroom hunting forum or the philosophy forum, but I'm posting it here because this is where the smart folks hang. 
A few years ago I found a cluster of orange cup fungi (I was unable to ID them) growing on the bank of a small stream in Clear Creek Metro Park, south of Columbus Ohio. When I touched them, they sent out a small puff of white spores. It seemed that they had sensed a disturbance and reacted by forcibly ejecting spores. The following year I observed a similar phenomenon with a small brown cup fungi (unable to ID).
It really got me thinking. Aristotle said that there are three kinds of souls (animating principles): vegetative, sensitive, and rational. He said that plants have vegetative souls, which direct their growth. Animals have sensitive souls which direct their growth and motion, allowing them to react to their environment. And only humans have rational souls, directing growth and motion, and allowing them to think abstractly, IE grasp universal forms (mathematics etc.).
I have been in an ongoing debate with my first philosophy Professor, Dr. David DeLeonardis, concerning the distinction between kinds of souls. I have always held that the distinction between vegetative and sensitive souls, and between sensitive and rational souls, is a difference in degree rather than in kind. I have argued that all souls exist on a continuum of awareness, with "vegetative" life forms on the low end of awareness, and with "rational animals" (humans), on the high end of the continuum. Every living thing is aware to a certain degree, and some life forms are more aware than others.
Aristotle never mentions fungi, but I think it is safe to assume that he would have classified them as vegetative along with plants.
Rather than going too deeply into the details of the argument, let me post some pictures.
 
I first recorded the phenomenon of spore dispersal related to physical sensation last spring with these Scarlet Cups (Sarcoscypha austriaca). I noticed that when the wind blew hard, the mushrooms would release their spores. This makes good evolutionary sense, because spores released into the wind will travel further than spores released into still air. One might argue this is not true sensitivity, but rather a hair trigger reaction to pressure on a given cell. This cannot be the case, however, because the reaction is delayed and occurs simultaneously throughout the entire cluster of mushrooms.
This spring I noticed the phenomenon in unidentified brown cup fungi. The spore discharge when I blew on them was so pronounced that I heard a loud Fssszzz as my head was engulfed in a cloud of white spores. I jumped back and almost fell down. It seems the spore discharge may also serve as a defense against predation.
 
Doc D. argued that sensitivity could be proven if an organism could initiate motion to avoid predation. While the spore discharge in the attached video is not as powerful as in the brown cup fungi above, it may be enough to scare off a mouse or other small critter looking for a meal. Note the lag between the stimulus (me blowing on them [Disciotis venosa]), and the reaction (spore discharge).
Edited by shroomydan (05/08/06 07:08 PM)
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 RogerRabbit
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Re: Proof that Mushrooms are Sensitive! [Re: shroomydan]
#5606658 - 05/08/06 09:17 PM (19 years, 12 days ago) |
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That is too cool bro. Now I'm gonna have to start getting down on my knees and blowing mushrooms, just to check for the phenomena. Mrs rabbit called the brown one 'Jews ear' and says it's edible. Not sure what the Latin name is though.
RR
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Download Let's Grow Mushrooms
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"I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison
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Anno
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Re: Proof that Mushrooms are Sensitive! [Re: RogerRabbit]
#5607267 - 05/09/06 12:54 AM (19 years, 12 days ago) |
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Zen Peddler
Registered: 06/18/01
Posts: 6,379
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Re: Proof that Mushrooms are Sensitive! [Re: shroomydan]
#5607464 - 05/09/06 03:01 AM (19 years, 12 days ago) |
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Cool post mate -
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shobimono
Why?
Registered: 09/14/04
Posts: 563
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Re: Proof that Mushrooms are Sensitive! [Re: Zen Peddler]
#5607589 - 05/09/06 04:44 AM (19 years, 12 days ago) |
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This is how those cup mushrooms dispearse their spores.
The inside surface of the cup is lined with capped cylinders containing spores under pressure. When air, ie from your breath or the wind, blows across the top of these cylinders, the lids dry out and shrink, this allows the pressure to release, shooting out the spores.
It's pretty cool to try. You don't need to blow like you are trying to blow all the candles out on a birthday cake, just a quick puff should suffice.
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shroomydan
exshroomerite
Registered: 07/04/04
Posts: 4,126
Loc: In the woods
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Re: Proof that Mushrooms are Sensitive! [Re: shobimono]
#5607607 - 05/09/06 05:06 AM (19 years, 12 days ago) |
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Your explanation does not account for the phenomenon shobimono. The spores puff out when the mushroom is disturbed by touching as well as by blowing. Touching would not cause the cylinder lids to dry out.
Do you have a link to support your theory?
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shobimono
Why?
Registered: 09/14/04
Posts: 563
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Re: Proof that Mushrooms are Sensitive! [Re: shroomydan]
#5607695 - 05/09/06 06:51 AM (19 years, 12 days ago) |
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I would guess that touching the cup physically dislodges that caps that cover the cylinders.
I don't think gently stroking the underside of the cup is going to make them disperse spores (unless you breath on the cup while you do it 
Giving them a poke might cause some spores dispersal, but again I would think that the caps on the cylinders are being physically dislodged, and that dispersal would be in the area that was poked.
I mean the whole surface doesn't disperse spores because you gently touch one edge of the cup.
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shobimono
Why?
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Re: Proof that Mushrooms are Sensitive! [Re: shobimono]
#5607704 - 05/09/06 07:03 AM (19 years, 12 days ago) |
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Cup fungi are Ascomycetes.
Ascomycota: Sexual spores (ascospores) form in a sac called an ascus (usually in eights), and are often discharged forcibly. The group is often called "ascomycetes" informally.
from
http://herbarium.usu.edu/fungi/FunFacts/Dispersal.htm
"Some cup fungi use a bursting cell to "shoot" spores through the boundary layer. In cup fungi, the spores are contained within a special cell called the ascus. Fungi whose spores are contained in an ascus are known as Ascomycetes.
When the spores are mature the ascus absorbs water. Insoluble materials in the cell are converted to soluble materials, causing internal pressure to build. When the pressure is high enough, the spores and the cytoplasm are explosively discharged. Spore release is explosive because of a weak point at the tip of the ascus that ruptures suddenly. The weak point can be a small circular "lid" (operculum) or an elastic ring. Humidity changes cause some cup fungi to discharge large numbers of asci (plural of ascus) all at once, "puffing out" a visible spore cloud.
More air turbulence is created by discharging all the spores at once than when a single ascus explodes. The spores have a better chance of escaping the boundary layer and being dispersed farther if the air is turbulent. The range of spore dispersal depends on size of the projectile. Larger spores, or clumps of spores, are shot farther. Podospora fimicola discharges all 8 of its spores as a single projectile as far as 20 inches (50 cm). "
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Tamadragon
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Re: Proof that Mushrooms are Sensitive! [Re: shobimono]  1
#5610350 - 05/09/06 08:34 PM (19 years, 11 days ago) |
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Edited by Tamadragon (05/12/06 03:48 PM)
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RogerRabbit
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Re: Proof that Mushrooms are Sensitive! [Re: Tamadragon]
#5610376 - 05/09/06 08:39 PM (19 years, 11 days ago) |
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Mushrooms are NOT just like plants.
This is cool even if it isn't ground breaking science news, and he explained in the second sentence why it's placed here.
RR
--------------------
Download Let's Grow Mushrooms
semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat
"I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison
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Tamadragon
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Re: Proof that Mushrooms are Sensitive! [Re: RogerRabbit]
#5610403 - 05/09/06 08:46 PM (19 years, 11 days ago) |
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~Tama
Peace
I get real lonely
Edited by Tamadragon (05/12/06 03:48 PM)
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beyondsisxth
Title?
Registered: 04/08/05
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Re: Proof that Mushrooms are Sensitive! [Re: Tamadragon]
#5611266 - 05/10/06 12:49 AM (19 years, 11 days ago) |
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Do you have any links that explain that physiology beneath plant and fungal awareness and consciousness? I've taken several college biology classes, and none have ever insinuated that plants and fungi are conscious entities with complexity surpassing simple physiological response. I wouldn't even argue that sponges have any sort of awareness, and they're actually classified as animals. These life forms simply don't have the biological capacity for information processing on that level.
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The sun was pulling cheap shots doing commercial body tricks, Behind the back, Under the leg, I think he even did a headspin, On a crossfader that sounded whack, But looked excellent, All of the sudden it gets dim, The crater face steps in, Puts mexican drumbreaks on the Technics, He's like "Let's begin", He conducted an orchestra so dope the sun started sweatin' him, I guess he'd expected to win on pure artistic merit, Composing complex plays with nothin but soundbytes, Burned out the lights, Made MCs too self conscious quit the master mics, For a thousand nights, It continued without a single slip up, Except once the record skipped, But it kinda sounded cool.
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shroomydan
exshroomerite
Registered: 07/04/04
Posts: 4,126
Loc: In the woods
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Re: Proof that Mushrooms are Sensitive! [Re: Tamadragon]
#5611622 - 05/10/06 05:36 AM (19 years, 11 days ago) |
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I don't really care if you think this should be moved. You might notice the little green tag beside my name. You might also notice there is not a little green tag beside your name.
If you don't have anything to contribute to the discussion, then please don't post in this thread.
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shroomydan
exshroomerite
Registered: 07/04/04
Posts: 4,126
Loc: In the woods
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Re: Proof that Mushrooms are Sensitive! [Re: beyondsisxth]
#5611668 - 05/10/06 06:23 AM (19 years, 11 days ago) |
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Quote:
I've taken several college biology classes, and none have ever insinuated that plants and fungi are conscious entities with complexity surpassing simple physiological response.
This is the same story I got in my biology classes. The standard biological theory is that plants and fungi are not aware at all, and that any observed activity is simply due to mechanical or chemical reactions.
I am not a biologist however; my primary field of study is philosophy, and when I see lower life forms reacting to their environments, I see purpose.
When a vine sends out one of those little curly things and grabs onto a branch, it seems to do so because it wants to climb to the top of the tree where it can get more light. Is the vine sensitive? Does it know the branch is there?
When a Venus Fly-Trap chomps a bug, it seems to do so because it wants to consume the nutrients in the bug. Is the Venus fly-trap sensitive? Is it aware of the bug?
These are questions of purpose, and are therefore beyond the scope of empirical science. They deal with final causality (why something happens), rather than efficient causality (how something happens). Modern science only recognizes efficient causality, because it is the only kind which can be measured. All bio-mechanical arguments against plants and fungi being aware could also be (and have been) used to argue that animals and even people are not truly aware. Some say motion and thought are merely the result of biochemical processes, and that in reality, all life forms are just complex machines. But the folks who argue thus fail to see purpose.
Purpose aside, let us return to a scientific analysis of the cup fungi:
Spore release is explosive because of a weak point at the tip of the ascus that ruptures suddenly. The weak point can be a small circular "lid" (operculum) or an elastic ring. Humidity changes cause some cup fungi to discharge large numbers of asci (plural of ascus) all at once, "puffing out" a visible spore cloud.
While blowing could cause a change in humidity, triggering the release of spores, touching would not. Maybe next time I find these I will record spore discharge from touching.
I don't know whether the mushrooms in the video have operculi or elastic rings closing off the spore tubes, but elastic rings seems to fit better with what I have observed. It seems to me that the mushroom senses the disturbance, and then after a short delay, all the tubes open at the same time. I have also noted that a mushroom only needs a few minutes to recharge before releasing another puff of spores.
My hypothesis is this: By some unknown process the mushroom feels the disturbance and through some electrochemical mechanism signals all the elastic rings to open at the same time. This would account for both the time lag between disturbance and spore release, and the fact that all tubes discharge simultaneously. I imagine this hypothesis could be tested by connecting electrical sensing equipment to the mushrooms and watching for signals during stimulus and spore release. I wonder if anyone has ever done this?
There may be another mechanism of action, but other hypotheses would need to account for the delay and simultaneous discharge.
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Tamadragon
Stranger
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Re: Proof that Mushrooms are Sensitive! [Re: shroomydan]
#5611709 - 05/10/06 07:13 AM (19 years, 11 days ago) |
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--------------------
~Tama
Peace
I get real lonely
Edited by Tamadragon (05/10/06 07:18 AM)
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Tamadragon
Stranger
Registered: 02/29/04
Posts: 382
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Re: Proof that Mushrooms are Sensitive! [Re: Tamadragon]
#5611714 - 05/10/06 07:16 AM (19 years, 11 days ago) |
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edit
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~Tama
Peace
I get real lonely
Edited by Tamadragon (05/10/06 07:17 AM)
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beyondsisxth
Title?
Registered: 04/08/05
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Re: Proof that Mushrooms are Sensitive! [Re: shroomydan]
#5611726 - 05/10/06 07:27 AM (19 years, 11 days ago) |
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Quote:
shroomydan said:
This is the same story I got in my biology classes. The standard biological theory is that plants and fungi are not aware at all, and that any observed activity is simply due to mechanical or chemical reactions.
I am not a biologist however; my primary field of study is philosophy, and when I see lower life forms reacting to their environments, I see purpose.
When a vine sends out one of those little curly things and grabs onto a branch, it seems to do so because it wants to climb to the top of the tree where it can get more light. Is the vine sensitive? Does it know the branch is there?
These are all responses coded by these species' genomes. While there is a purpose, to pass on genetic information, its due in no part to any "desire" these organisms have. The vine doesn't reach for light and the mushroom doesn't disperse spores because they want to and it makes them happy, their biology dictates that they must lest they suffer the consequences of not passing on their genetics.
Clarification Edit: Also, I think I'm further confusing the matter. I'm not ascribing any sort of motive on the genomes part either. I'm saying that the genomes expression has certain consequences which produces these affects, which in the right conditions will lead to the survival of the organism.
Quote:
When a Venus Fly-Trap chomps a bug, it seems to do so because it wants to consume the nutrients in the bug. Is the Venus fly-trap sensitive? Is it aware of the bug?
No, the plant is not aware. Its a simple signal-transduction pathway that isn't at all dependant on whether a fly triggers it. Like many predatory plant species, if you touch the right hairs or trigger the right spot the fly trap will snap or the leaves will close.
Quote:
All bio-mechanical arguments against plants and fungi being aware could also be (and have been) used to argue that animals and even people are not truly aware. Some say motion and thought are merely the result of biochemical processes, and that in reality, all life forms are just complex machines. But the folks who argue thus fail to see purpose.
For one, just because you believe there is some purpose present doesn't make it so, and believing thus in contrary to scientific evidence makes your argument incompatible with science. So its a nice thought, but not useful for mycology, which is the branch of science dealing with the study of fungi.
Second, I'd say that the bio-mechanical arguments against the awareness of plants and fungi cannot be used to argue that people in particular and most advanced animals are not aware. The arguments are pinned on the prescence of certain neural tissues present in people and animals which are simply non-existant in plants, fungi and lower animal life forms (like sponges).
Quote:
While blowing could cause a change in humidity, triggering the release of spores, touching would not. Maybe next time I find these I will record spore discharge from touching.
If air currents and changes in humidity are enough to disturb and trigger the release of spores, why is it implausible that actual physical disturbance couldn't achieve the same?
Quote:
My hypothesis is this: By some unknown process the mushroom feels the disturbance and through some electrochemical mechanism signals all the elastic rings to open at the same time. This would account for both the time lag between disturbance and spore release, and the fact that all tubes discharge simultaneously. I imagine this hypothesis could be tested by connecting electrical sensing equipment to the mushrooms and watching for signals during stimulus and spore release. I wonder if anyone has ever done this?
There may be another mechanism of action, but other hypotheses would need to account for the delay and simultaneous discharge.
What tissue are you proposing is conducting these electrochemical signals? Are you proposing that the organism has some sort of nerve center that controls and processes these signals? Would the nerve center be part of the mycelial mat or the fruit body? How is the organism affected by the connection with other mycelial mats? I only ask because I was under the impression that fungal bodies consisted of all hyphae, and if there were some sort of complex system of transmitting and receiving signals throughout the organism, that there would be specialized tissue to facilitate the function.
--------------------
The sun was pulling cheap shots doing commercial body tricks, Behind the back, Under the leg, I think he even did a headspin, On a crossfader that sounded whack, But looked excellent, All of the sudden it gets dim, The crater face steps in, Puts mexican drumbreaks on the Technics, He's like "Let's begin", He conducted an orchestra so dope the sun started sweatin' him, I guess he'd expected to win on pure artistic merit, Composing complex plays with nothin but soundbytes, Burned out the lights, Made MCs too self conscious quit the master mics, For a thousand nights, It continued without a single slip up, Except once the record skipped, But it kinda sounded cool.
Edited by beyondsisxth (05/10/06 07:35 AM)
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RogerRabbit
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Re: Proof that Mushrooms are Sensitive! [Re: beyondsisxth]
#5611821 - 05/10/06 08:18 AM (19 years, 11 days ago) |
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oh, so narrow minded. Just because humans have neural pathways, nerve centers, a brain, etc., that can help trigger physical reactions, doesn't mean plants and/or fungi must have the same systems in order to be aware. The space shuttle has far different and more complex systems than my little two seat airplane, but that doesn't mean they don't both fly.
Several years ago, I 'trained' mycelium to crawl through a maze. I proved mycelium has a memory because I could transfer a small piece of mycelium from a completed maze to an identical second maze and the mycelium would take the shortest path to the rye grain at the end.
RR
--------------------
Download Let's Grow Mushrooms
semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat
"I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison
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beyondsisxth
Title?
Registered: 04/08/05
Posts: 232
Last seen: 13 years, 9 months
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Re: Proof that Mushrooms are Sensitive! [Re: RogerRabbit]
#5611972 - 05/10/06 09:21 AM (19 years, 11 days ago) |
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Quote:
RogerRabbit said:
oh, so narrow minded. Just because humans have neural pathways, nerve centers, a brain, etc., that can help trigger physical reactions, doesn't mean plants and/or fungi must have the same systems in order to be aware.
I'd say I'm being pretty civil with my questions, no need for the name calling just because I don't agree with you. You may say I'm narrow minded, but I'd say you're making some rather extraordinary claims, and those require extraordinary evidence. Since for plants and fungi, this system can't be electrochemical, how is it done? Purely hormonal? Cytoplasmic channeling? Is this awareness or simply a stimulus-response reaction?
Quote:
The space shuttle has far different and more complex systems than my little two seat airplane, but that doesn't mean they don't both fly.
"The Red Herring: This strangely-titled fallacy, named after a strong-smelling fish (the scent of which throws hounds off the scent of a trail), occurs when one draws attention away from the main issue in a given case by focusing on a side issue or on something irrelevant."
Thats very well and clever, but tell me, what do two analagous flying devices with homologous wing structures have to do with your argument that plants and fungi have neural systems capable of self-awareness with absolutely no homology to our own systems of the same purposes? If they do exist and they are different then our own, tell me how they work? Is it chemical or magic?
Quote:
Several years ago, I 'trained' mycelium to crawl through a maze. I proved mycelium has a memory because I could transfer a small piece of mycelium from a completed maze to an identical second maze and the mycelium would take the shortest path to the rye grain at the end.
RR
What was your methodology? How does this prove that the mycelium isn't just detecting the shortest path to food rather than remembering it? You're automatically assuming that your one hypothesis is the truth, when I don't see that being the only possible explanation.
--------------------
The sun was pulling cheap shots doing commercial body tricks, Behind the back, Under the leg, I think he even did a headspin, On a crossfader that sounded whack, But looked excellent, All of the sudden it gets dim, The crater face steps in, Puts mexican drumbreaks on the Technics, He's like "Let's begin", He conducted an orchestra so dope the sun started sweatin' him, I guess he'd expected to win on pure artistic merit, Composing complex plays with nothin but soundbytes, Burned out the lights, Made MCs too self conscious quit the master mics, For a thousand nights, It continued without a single slip up, Except once the record skipped, But it kinda sounded cool.
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RogerRabbit
Bans for Pleasure
Registered: 03/26/03
Posts: 42,214
Loc: Seattle
Last seen: 2 years, 2 months
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Re: Proof that Mushrooms are Sensitive! [Re: beyondsisxth]
#5612035 - 05/10/06 09:46 AM (19 years, 11 days ago) |
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Oh, I didn't mean the narrow minded as a personal attack. I see how you took it that way though, I poorly worded my thoughts. Sorry.
No, I don't think fungi have neural systems. Those seem to be reserved for the animal kingdom. However, I don't feel that science and mysticism need necessarily always be separated from each other. Science is just now studying fungi on a serious level. However, they've been doing that with humans for eons and still we don't know what constitutes 'consciousness', thus mysticism and religion still have a part in our lives, and it's my guess they always will.
The airplane analogy was to compare complex systems with simple ones.(humans/fungi). Imagine a million years from now, archeologists digging up the space shuttle and analyzing it. They would determine that complex electrical pathways controlled by computers manipulated the aircraft, thus mechanical flight required those complex systems. However, what if later they dug up my airplane with no computer, no wiring except to the spark plugs, no blood system(hydraulics), etc., and determined it couldn't possibly fly because it didn't have those complex systems. I'm afraid that is where we head when we declare that fungi, or even plants for that matter can not be 'aware' because they lack animal neurological systems. Perhaps they have different, as yet undiscovered systems?
RR
--------------------
Download Let's Grow Mushrooms
semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat
"I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison
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