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God Trinity explained
    #12633749 -

Forget the definitions you have formed about these four words: God, The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit. While reading, be conscious of the fact that this is for the purpose of redefining words, not the purpose of explaining the universe, and not for the purpose of supporting any other Christian concept. The purpose is to explain the God Trinity as something that can be incorporated into one's understanding without having to adopt any beliefs.

God: Everything; consists of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit
Holy Spirit: That which is experienced
Son: You; The Relative Center; The Experiencer
Father: Everything else; the cause/means; that which science describes

So that's it. All there is is you, your experience, and everything else.  That's something everyone can relate to to some degree, I believe. You can debate whether any one of these things is actually 'real', but I find that irrelevant. It is the nature of each of these things, however, that will probably always be the subject of debate, but this is my understand of the nature of each thing as of yet:



The Holy Spirit is the experience, the Light that surrounds you. It is the only knowable, conceivable thing. The Holy Spirit takes the form of all that is imaginable and realizable: light, sound, emotion, thought, feeling, etc.

The Son is you. You are located at the center of the experience; you are the center. You are the thing that the Holy Spirit seems to be surrounding.

The Father, by deduction, is everything that is not The Son or the Holy Spirit, so explaining The Father gets a little more complicated. It is, among many things, everything going on behind the curtains. You and your experiences are able to exist, apparently, because of your body. Your body is able to exist because of the way that the universe exists, specifically the universe’s property of containing your body. The Father is the cause of the way things are, but realize that that statement is defining the term ‘The Father’, not defining the cause of the way things are. That needs to be emphasized. I’ll explain the best I can.

The Fa•ther [th uh fah-ther]
n. The cause of existence existing the way it exists

That definition in itself doesn’t tell you anything or propose an alternative/contradiction to any view. I’m just defining the term “The Father”. No other word defines the conglomeration of every single cause that has lead to things being this way right now. Science covers a lot, but doesn’t touch the initial Why that was the cause of the Big Bang. Science only works with the observable, and the Big Bang can’t, or can’t yet, be observed. You could say physics is the entire cause of existence existing the way it does, and it may well be, but nobody knows that for a fact. If, hypothetically, physics is the entire cause behind all of it, I have done nothing other than define The Father as a synonym for physics. Science is the further elaboration of this definition of The Father.


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The creation takes hand of the chisel...

Edited by AngryPhil (05/26/10 07:19 PM)

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Re: God Trinity explained [Re: AngryPhil]
    #12633884 -

Well, we are all entitled to our own opinions, but that is not orthodoxy. If interested in a modernized (from Augustine, who first elaborated the Trinity, coined by Tertullian), read John McQuarrie's The Principles of Christian Theology. He is considered to be a Christian existentialist, but he has a profound explication of the classic doctrine - one that even clarified a lifetime of misunderstanding to my late Muslim father-in-law (a very bright Ph.D. electrical engineer and businessman).

http://www.blackwellpublishing.com/mcgrath/textbook/chap1Q_A/chap0010a.asp ;     A theological page with relevant questions.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

Edited by MarkostheGnostic (05/26/10 07:32 PM)

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Re: God Trinity explained [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #12633951 -

To me this seems like an extremely awkward set of terms.

Why not just talk about experience, self, and other?
Seems like it would be a lot easier to hold a discussion that way.


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Weedmaster P knows the truth.

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Re: God Trinity explained [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #12633960 -

I'm trying to avoid orthodoxy. I don't like Christianity for the most part, but I can relate quite a bit to what Jesus talked about. I don't like the whole 'church' thing that makes people feel like someone else has a certain authority to say what Jesus meant. Especially the Catholic Church, the whole concept of a bunch of people declaring themselves to be able to channel God's will really disgusts me.


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The creation takes hand of the chisel...

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Re: God Trinity explained [Re: AngryPhil]
    #12634059 -

angry phil pontificates:tongue2:


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: God Trinity explained [Re: AngryPhil]
    #12634085 -

I'm not responding to your feelings on whatever expression of Christianity that you were exposed to. I'm responding to your intellect, which has apparently held onto the notion of trinitarian thought in a Christian idiom. I studied theology in a Masters degree program over 30 years ago, and I have continued my inquiries since then. At bottom is an archetype which exists as part of the psychic infrastructure, as Jung describes it. Trinitarian thought has its earliest expression as personifications of Father-Son-Mother in Egypt as Osiris-Horus-Isis. The dove has long symbolized the Divine Mother in the forms of Isis, Astarte, Ashteroth, Aphrodite and eventually the Holy Spirit, neutralized from the original divine feminine.

Much of Christian trinitarian thought is derivative, via Augustine, of Plotinus' Neoplatonism. Dionysius the Areopagite (Pseud0-Dionysius) built a Christian Neoplatonism which has been the basis of early Christian concepts. Modern protestants like Karl Barth reworked a lot of this ancient stuff. The archetype can be found in Hindu theology in both personifications and abstract principles:  Brahman-Vishnu-Shiva, Sat Chit Ananda, and other formulations. In Kabbalah one has the Crown, Supernal Father, Supernal Mother. Catholic Christianity went to war with Orthodox Christianity over the Filioque. It is preposterous to kill over man-made intellectual constructs.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filioque I'm about understanding the historical evolution of thought which has caused so much history, not judging it based on my own limited experience.

Iesous, or Issa, as a Jew, would have not believed anything referring to a triune Godhead. There was, historically, a duality of Father-Son for a century or so before trinitarian concepts evolved.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: God Trinity explained [Re: laserpig]
    #12634185 -

If one is talking Christian metaphysics, it has nothing whatsoever to do with the human experiential dimension. These are speculations on Ultimate Reality (God), based on some wordage of Paul, and John in the NT, and then Tertullian coined the word "trinity," based on separate names for God in the NT. Augustine wrote two tomes on his elaboration of the word Trinity, and his books became doctrine that was further developed. Augustine was a Neoplatonist and a Manichean, before he converted to Christianity, so it is important to understand where all this stuff came from in the first place. Reacting emotionally to your psycho Sunday school teacher or berating Baptist preacher, or whatever is just petty emotional baggage. This kind of stuff comes out when someone writes 'I don't like Christianity.' To me, that is just like a child saying 'I don't like lima beans.' So what? Some uneducated parents rammed their own religious programming down their kid's gullet, resulting in the undeveloped protest of that kid 20 years later. Christianity as a presence, an idea, a religious, cultural, political, psychological, spiritual, metaphysical reality is HUGE. HUGE. It is way more profound than anyone's utter misunderstanding of the whole thing. People need to understand what 'the real thing is,' not merely the reactions to their distorted exposures from the ignorance of their fanatical elders.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

Edited by MarkostheGnostic (05/26/10 09:54 PM)

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Re: God Trinity explained [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #12634309 -

Sez who? You got to get over this jesus thing man.:lol: Your getting along and not much time to see the light.:satansmoking: I'll pray for ya.:heart:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: God Trinity explained [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #12634743 -

So, what's the applicability of all this?
What does it help us understand?

These questions are not rhetorical, and I don't mean them as attacks either. They're honest questions.
I was raised atheist, so I have no strong feelings about Christianity one way or the other. To me it seems like just another religion.
But I can see your point about Christianity being an enormously influential and fundamentally important presence in the development of "the west's" cultural and intellectual identity.

So, maybe this isn't the place for you to give an exposition, but ... well, put simply, what's the deal?
What profundities exist beyond the average man's "utter misunderstanding?"


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Weedmaster P knows the truth.

Edited by laserpig (05/26/10 09:48 PM)

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Re: God Trinity explained [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #12634841 -

MarkostheGnostic said:
If one is talking Christian metaphysics, it has nothing whatsoever to do with the human experiential dimension. These are speculations on Ultimate Reality (God), based on some wordage of Paul, and John in the NT, and then Tertullian coined the word "trinity," based on separate names for God in the NT. Augustine wrote two tomes on his elaboration of the word Trinity, and his books became doctrine that was further developed. Augustine was a Neoplatonist and a Manichean, before he converted to Christianity, so it is important to understand where all this stuff came from in the first place. Reacting emotionally to your psycho Sunday school teacher or berating Baptist preacher, or whatever is just petty emotional baggage. This kind of stuff comes out when someone writes 'I don't like Christianity.' To me, that is just like a child saying 'I don't like lima beans.' So what? Some uneducated parents rammed their own religious programming down their kid's gullet, resulting in the undeveloped protest of that kid 20 years later. Christianity as a presence, an idea, a religious, cultural, political, psychological, spiritual, metaphysical reality is HUGE. HUGE. It is way more profound than anyone's utter misunderstanding of the whole thing. People need to understand what 'the real thing is,' not merely the reactions  to their distorted exposures from the ignorance of there fanatical elders.


:shocked:


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Jesus loves you.

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Re: God Trinity explained [Re: Icelander]
    #12634889 -

THE LIGHT - Brewer & Shipley (Remember them?)


http://www.google.com/url?q=http://s0.ilike.com/play%23Brewer%2B%2526%2BShipley:The%2BLight:1858970:s310509.10608206.3500646.0.2.20%252Cstd_5079f7dca8d94e59af7b67fd68cd8c43&ei=hOr9S4XxOcWqlAelm9TaCQ&sa=X&oi=music_play_track&resnum=1&ct=result&cd=2&ved=0CBMQ0wQoADAA&usg=AFQjCNEYzYvDWS8enQDGxUJG8vJ19tUM_g


The light within me shineth, the life within me flows
I’ll sing a song of the kingdom and hope the spirit grows

There was a man from midnight who lived while on the road
A light was his possession it was a heavy load
He wrapped it all in color but left the binding free
For those who felt the hunger and truly longed to see

The rumor soon did travel, the winds they did not fail
And all across the country, the brightness did prevail
The people they did gather their thankfulness to bring
But for the silent witness who did not see a thing

Come all you sons and daughters who make the road your life
Who try and live the freedom to rise above this strife
Oh, find the way in wisdom the truth that does not lie
The change is many colors in the beholder’s eye

The light within me shineth, and the life within me flows
I’ll sing a song of the kingdom and hope the spirit grows
I’ll sing a song of the kingdom


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: God Trinity explained [Re: laserpig]
    #12634916 -

Man, it's bad enough that I can't type, but you're asking me for a book!


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: God Trinity explained [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #12634924 -

Am I being a petty child when I say I don't like Christianity nor its metaphysical assertions?

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Re: God Trinity explained [Re: andrewss]
    #12635096 -

If you are not a metaphysician, it doesn't matter what your protests are in the matter. Then you are just stuck in the emotional-psychological miasma of your childhood experience. One has to completely unlearn one's childhood programming. When I was told as a child that ladies just had babies when they grew up as a matter of course, I accepted that. Then I wondered how it was that babies could grow up to look like their daddies. I was told that it was just natural when mommies and daddies lived together and slept in bed together. It was an answer that 'magical thinking' of a child could readily accept over storks dropping babies down chimneys.
But eventually, I had to reject the entire explanation for an accurate scientific one. The same unlearning-relearning is necessary for religious education, only very few people do this and so maintain a stork version of their religion til their dying day.

Not everyone needs to attend seminary. In fact, it was 30 years past seminary that I had to unlearn that sophisticated intellectual manipulation of mythology and psychology as history and metaphysics. I'm at a point where I've deconstructed biblical writings with the help of J.S. Spong, and deconstructed thought itself with Buddhist Abhidharma psychology and years of my own Jungian analysis and self-analysis. I thoroughly recognize that Ultimate Reality has its intellectual symbolism in theology, mythology and philosophy, but that intellectual models are ONLY the finger pointing at the moon, as they say in Zen. The models are not the 'thing-in-itself' any more than the finger is the moon! I have learned a lot, and that can be reduced to this: 'Sigh and Be.' Don't try to understand Ultimate Reality intellectually. There is no usable result. Live and let live. Be at peace. Abhor violence. Be kind. Period.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: God Trinity explained [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #12635681 -

:datass:


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Jesus loves you.

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Re: God Trinity explained [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #12635977 -

MarkostheGnostic said:
If you are not a metaphysician, it doesn't matter what your protests are in the matter. Then you are just stuck in the emotional-psychological miasma of your childhood experience. One has to completely unlearn one's childhood programming. When I was told as a child that ladies just had babies when they grew up as a matter of course, I accepted that. Then I wondered how it was that babies could grow up to look like their daddies. I was told that it was just natural when mommies and daddies lived together and slept in bed together. It was an answer that 'magical thinking' of a child could readily accept over storks dropping babies down chimneys.
But eventually, I had to reject the entire explanation for an accurate scientific one. The same unlearning-relearning is necessary for religious education, only very few people do this and so maintain a stork version of their religion til their dying day.

Not everyone needs to attend seminary. In fact, it was 30 years past seminary that I had to unlearn that sophisticated intellectual manipulation of mythology and psychology as history and metaphysics. I'm at a point where I've deconstructed biblical writings with the help of J.S. Spong, and deconstructed thought itself with Buddhist Abhidharma psychology and years of my own Jungian analysis and self-analysis. I thoroughly recognize that Ultimate Reality has its intellectual symbolism in theology, mythology and philosophy, but that intellectual models are ONLY the finger pointing at the moon, as they say in Zen. The models are not the 'thing-in-itself' any more than the finger is the moon! I have learned a lot, and that can be reduced to this: 'Sigh and Be.' Don't try to understand Ultimate Reality intellectually. There is no usable result. Live and let live. Be at peace. Abhor violence. Be kind. Period.



The more I look at this post the more I don't like it.

You dismiss the power of Christianity on young humans, I think at the very least people should realize how world-view paradigms are not one size fits all. What you propose is kind of hard to always overcome. I have seen quite a bit of negative results from intense Christian training in children to and through their puberty. You would like to argue the specifics in the doctrine, fine... but even then you taper off into stuff most anyone in the Christian community would tear apart... but I guess maybe you weren't specific enough... but live and let live!? I mean I see some of the function of Christian ethics and such being reinforced many years ago, it snaps some people into having some moral sense... but lets face it, much of at least its popular application is pretty brute.

I suppose we would agree that there is a balance to be had.

Anyway, I don't see how warranted your claim is to the pettiness of merely disliking Christianity... granted certain people do so for various reasons. To me it is a step for some peoples intellectual progress... obviously if you brood on it too much it becomes weird psychological baggage.

I dunno I am rambling... maybe I will post better tomorrow.


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Jesus loves you.

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Re: God Trinity explained [Re: andrewss]
    #12635989 -

I wasn't raised Christian but I still despise organized religion.  It's not matter of who's more intellectual; it's a matter of who's dumb enough to believe something just because somebody told them to believe.  Catholic high school still sucked, though.  :lol:


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: God Trinity explained [Re: andrewss]
    #12636605 -

You're reading your own interpretation of my post, not what I said. I nowhere dismissed the power of Christianity - I affirmed it! It is obvious. Christianity is so varied - there are hundreds of denominations - that you can't legitimately lay claim to a 'one-size fits all' paradigm. That's absurd. High church tradition exists with Ozark snake-charmers and tent evangelicals. Jehova's Witnesses practice Subordinationism of 'the Father (JHVH) over the Son and Spirit. Your statement is completely uncritical and fails to discern the major differences. Brooding does become psychological baggage - religious abuse on the part of early childhood caregivers does.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: God Trinity explained [Re: andrewss]
    #12637695 -

andrewss said:
Am I being a petty child when I say I don't like Christianity nor its metaphysical assertions?


MarkostheGnostic said:
If you are not a metaphysician, it doesn't matter what your protests are in the matter. Then you are just stuck in the emotional-psychological miasma of your childhood experience. One has to completely unlearn one's childhood programming.


I guess this is the only specific thing I am not so sure I like or get... though perhaps with elaboration it would be sorted out. So one can't have verdict on the matter without being accused of having emotional problems? Well... actually I think that might be to some degree true. Especially with the positing of influential subconscious operations. "Completely unlearn one's childhood programming" COMPLETELY?! I dare say that is impossible, though I guess we could dispute what you mean by completely unlearn.

Yes obviously there many flavors of Christianity. So it is quite hard to keep this coherent.


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Jesus loves you.

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Re: God Trinity explained [Re: andrewss]
    #12639629 -

I'm not saying you have "emotional problems," I'm saying you have emotional reactions to ideas that you were taught, like the "reactive mind" that Dianetics talks about. Getting hammered as a child about Augustine's doctrine of 'Original Sin' and what a bad child you are, who must repent and be saved, blah, blah, blah, has created LOTS of resentment towards whatever brand of Christianity one came up in. Just ask Icelander! Augustine took the Pauline "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" - Romans 3:23, and made Christ absolutely indispensable for 'salvation,' even though Iesous recognized righteous men both Jew and Gentile. Paul had his own ideas about the workings of 'salvation,' and became the number one authority.

If one uses one's god-given intellect to explore the Hebrew idea of evil, one will find that we are said to have a Yetzer Hara Tov and a Yetzer Hara - a Good and and Evil inclination. This is WAY different from Original Sin which says that we are 'depraved from birth,' and inherit the rebellious sinfulness of our Primal Parents - the mythic Adam and Eve. All of Christian fanaticism hinges on this one point. Reject this Augustinian doctrine and Christianity resumes its nurturing, patient, accepting, original implications. Doctrines were not all-important, and many methodologies for entering into Christ [Consciousness] were acceptable. These were the Ante-Nicean years, before Nicaea, where and when Christian doctrine was codified. THIS is where I like to put my roots down and draw up early Christianity, especially the Gnostics, NOT the later developments which caused more harm than good.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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