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Re: Falsifying evolution? [Re: xFrockx]
    #10283645 -

"Are the laws of thermodynamics not facts? "

They are the best we have, and as far as we know they always work, but even they are falsifiable.

For example, the universe could somehow change the way it operates as it itself changes, and all of our "laws" might only be true for this particular era of space-time.

Or, the laws of thermodynamics might only be our best description of something which, in all actuality, cannot be fully captured by axiomatic descriptions.

In either case, I'm not going to go outside and start trying to turn tennis balls into rocket fuel with my mind.  Do I think that the laws of thermodynamics are absolutely and permanently true?  Honestly, my only answer is "I don't know."  Do I think that it matters whether they are true?  No, because if they changed the integrity of scientific laws would be the last thing on my mind, if anything.

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Re: Falsifying evolution? [Re: xFrockx]
    #10283654 -

"In my universe, mathematics is the fundamental discipline, and the laws of physics are constant and do not change over time. "

Well what if you're wrong?

In any case, don't be discouraged just because I can disagree.  Its the only way you, I, and anyone else reading this can get better.  But don't take me as devils advocate either, I'm not playing that game.  I'm being sincere in my criticism, and unless you can show how its unfounded it will haunt our beliefs about reality, as it should.

Edited by xFrockx (05/04/09 01:11 PM)

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Re: Falsifying evolution? [Re: DieCommie]
    #10283980 -

Qubit said:
Mr. Mushrooms said:
Now, is there any evidence that causation is unjustified?  And if you're thinking Hume boy do I have a surprise for you. :wink:


Unjustified is not the same as inferred.



One piece of evidence that would work to falsify evolution is if the telomere we have in the middle of our chromosomes werent there.  That is a testable prediction made by they theory of evolution by natural selection.  There are many way it could be falsified; but it never has been.


Nope, not under the described definition.  Many ways?  How about one?

Qubit said:
Quote:
Definition of evolution:

The biodiversity of life came about by natural causes.


Thats not the definition of evolution.  I never cease to be confused and perturbed by the weird definitions you philosophers choose to adopt.  Sometimes I think its out of sheer ignorance, other times I think it is purposeful just to confuse the layperson and browbeat them with confusing and archaic terms.  Here I think you are just redefining evolution to better suit your own belief system.


Nope again, I am using a standard definition in the sense that naturalism cannot accept non-natural causation.  Which is humorous in its own right because many fields of science use non-natural causation.

I never cease to be amazed at the equivocation evolutionists use when defending an indefensible argument.  Must be a human thing.


--------------------

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Re: Falsifying evolution? [Re: johnm214]
    #10283994 -

johnm214 said:
Mr. Mushrooms said:
All good points, John.  Imagine if every organism had such a DNA that it was completely unrelated to every other organism.  That would be the death knell for natural selection.  However, I wasn't talking about descent with modification; I was talking about natural causes.  So, in fact, none of those ideas would falsify evolution as described.


I ignored the observation qubit made as I thought it irrelevant, but you are addressing the cause  particularly?

And your trying to determine, what?  If it can be detected if the cause is natural or not?

No, I would say it cannot be detected as by definition we cannot observe unnatural phenomena.

But given that we've never detected unnatural phenomena to anybody's ability to demonstrate I would say it is a moot point- who cares?  Evolution doesn't disprove all forms of intelligent design, probably most  can coexist with evolution.

One's science, however; and the other is just trying to fit a philosophical supposition to the data we have.


I am addressing whether or not evolution can be falsified.  If it cannot, it isn't science.  QED


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Re: Falsifying evolution? [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #10284960 -

Mr. Mushrooms said:
I am addressing whether or not evolution can be falsified.  If it cannot, it isn't science.  QED


Well, if different species didn't have any similarities in their genes, it certainly would make the theory of evolution much less credible. That all species share so many genes, is to me a very good reason to believe that we are all related. The only reason why I am more related to my parents than to a bacteria, is because my genome is more similar to the genome of my parents than to the genome of a bacteria. But there are also many similarities between my genome and the genome of a bacteria.

When we also have a mechanism to explain how these differences in the genomes of different species can be generated through mutations in the DNA of reproductive cells, then I think there is very much credence for the theory of evolution.

In fact, I think a person must either be a complete idiot, or be completely ignorant of science, in order to reject the theory of evolution.

Edited by Zanthius (05/04/09 05:03 PM)

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Re: Falsifying evolution? [Re: Zanthius]
    #10285567 -

Quote:
In fact, I think a person must either be a complete idiot, or be completely ignorant of science, in order to reject the theory of evolution.



Careful, thats a personalism against half of the P&S regulars.  :wink:

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Re: Falsifying evolution? [Re: DieCommie]
    #10285604 -

Qubit said:
Quote:
In fact, I think a person must either be a complete idiot, or be completely ignorant of science, in order to reject the theory of evolution.



Careful, thats a personalism against half of the P&S regulars.  :wink:


I don't see anyone here rejecting evolution as a pragmatic theory according which to explain the world around us.  I do see people contesting it as a scientific theory on the grounds that it cannot be falsified, however.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Falsifying evolution? [Re: deCypher]
    #10285911 -

"In fact, I think a person must either be a complete idiot, or be completely ignorant of science, in order to reject the theory of evolution."

Well then you better start calling scientists idiots, because it is their duty as gatherers of objective data to be at least open-minded to evolution's rejection should there be evidence which would do so.

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Re: Falsifying evolution? [Re: xFrockx]
    #10285935 -

evolution as a theory is unfalsifiable that's what makes it so tight and why god put all the evidence on earth so people can conclude whatever they want from it

it's like when you start looking for 5s you start finding 5s everywhere you look

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Re: Falsifying evolution? [Re: Quetzalcohuatl]
    #10285975 -

Evolution is plenty falsifiable, but that doesnt mean its going to happen.

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Re: Falsifying evolution? [Re: xFrockx]
    #10285998 -

Sure, it's as falsifiable as Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden.

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Re: Falsifying evolution? [Re: Quetzalcohuatl]
    #10286030 -

You aren't making any sense.  If you read this thread you would see that there are several ways for evolution to be falsified.  Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden is already falsified by archeological records, evolution is not.  Unless you're going to construct an actual argument I'm just going to ignore you.

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Re: Falsifying evolution? [Re: xFrockx]
    #10286118 -

I'm making as much sense as you are. If evolution were falsifiable then instead of looking for evidence which supports the theory people would look for evidence which denies it. But since anyone who denies the theory of evolution is considered a crackpot, then it has in a sense become as falsifiable as the Garden of Eden because evidence can be found to support any claim if a person tries hard enough.

There are plenty of people who believe they have all the evidence that Garden of Eden existed. Sorry just because a bunch of angry little chimps in a science lab disagree with them doesn't invalidate their belief system.

Since I am not philosophically obligated to engage in rational arguments it is your duty as the rational agent to support your beliefs and defend them.

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Re: Falsifying evolution? [Re: Quetzalcohuatl]
    #10286134 -

Quote:
If evolution were falsifiable then instead of looking for evidence which supports the theory people would look for evidence which denies it.


And thats exactly what evolutionary biologists do... 

Nobody gets prestige by finding yet another piece of evidence that substantiates the theory - prestige is gotten by overturning the existing theory.



edit - just thought of an exotic way to falsify the theory.  Think of all those old cheesy sci fi movies.  What if we found another planet with the same species making up its bio-diversity as ours?  That would throw a huge wrench in the theory of evolution by natural selection and some other mechanism for observed bio-diversity would have to be had.

Edited by Qubit (05/04/09 07:59 PM)

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Re: Falsifying evolution? [Re: DieCommie]
    #10286161 -

ok well you better get those house niggas workin on it.

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Re: Falsifying evolution? [Re: DieCommie]
    #10286192 -

"Since I am not philosophically obligated to engage in rational arguments it is your duty as the rational agent to support your beliefs and defend them. "

Since you're stating yourself that you are open to irrationality, then I am not obligated, or moved, to read what you type.

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Re: Falsifying evolution? [Re: xFrockx]
    #10286214 -

"What if we found another planet with the same species making up its bio-diversity as ours?  "

I've thought about this too.  Given that DNA could be developed on another planet that could match DNA from ours (working with the same rules of chemistry from the same elements), its pretty likely that somewhere out there there are planets that have at least a couple of our organisms running around.

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Re: Falsifying evolution? [Re: xFrockx]
    #10286254 -

Quote:
Since you're stating yourself that you are open to irrationality, then I am not obligated, or moved, to read what you type.


Nope I didn't say that and thanks for agreeing with me.

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Re: Falsifying evolution? [Re: xFrockx]
    #10286301 -

xFrockx said:
Well then you better start calling scientists idiots, because it is their duty as gatherers of objective data to be at least open-minded to evolution's rejection should there be evidence which would do so.


Yes, as I said, if the genomes of different species didn't have any similarities, then we would have a good reason to reject the theory of evolution. However, all the species on this planet have many similarities in their genomes, and we can explain how differences were generated from mutations in the DNA of reproductive cells.

Edited by Zanthius (05/04/09 08:29 PM)

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Re: Falsifying evolution? [Re: Quetzalcohuatl]
    #10286347 -

Quote:
I've thought about this too.  Given that DNA could be developed on another planet that could match DNA from ours (working with the same rules of chemistry from the same elements), its pretty likely that somewhere out there there are planets that have at least a couple of our organisms running around.




I dont think you are considering the numbers correctly.  Real back of the envelope comparison here:  There are 10^23 stars in the universe which is alot, but a human DNA with 3 billion amino acids each with 4 choices - that's 4^(3000000000) combinations.  Convert that to base of ten for comparison, 10^(2000000000) is much, much larger than 10^23.  So you would need about 2 billion universes just like ours to get another human (or any animal with 3 bill. base pairs).  This assumes that there is on average one species per star (an earth-like biosphere in every 5-100 million star systems).

Bottom line: If I got news today that there was a biosphere with species just as earth's out in the cosmos, with our geological record still intact, that would falsify natural selection as the mechanism for evolution.  There would have to be something else...

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