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Falsifying evolution?
    #10282561 -

This thread was born out of a discussion between zouden and myself found here.

My question is, for all those extremely intelligent, well-read posters in the forum, can you falsify evolution?

Definition of evolution:

The biodiversity of life came about by natural causes.

Exactly how would you falsify such a statement?


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Re: Falsifying evolution? [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #10282568 -

Does this mean if we use machines to enhance ourselves and create better genetics for our future selves that it isn't evolution?

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Re: Falsifying evolution? [Re: Cyric]
    #10282585 -

Sure, evolution can be falsified.  If you can find a chicken fossil in the Pre-cambrian period, evolution will be turned over on its side.

...Good luck finding one though :smile:.


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If it's good for fungus, it's good for us...

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Re: Falsifying evolution? [Re: Newfound_wonder]
    #10282607 -

evolution plays a small part in how your parents mentally effect who you become but in general you play the bigger part in who you are...

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Re: Falsifying evolution? [Re: Mastamike1118]
    #10282619 -

So, if you were raised by a bird, following this logic, you'd probably grow wings and a beak and fly? :grin:

Damn it, I knew it I should have been adopted by a panther. :yesnod:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Falsifying evolution? [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10282639 -

small part.... yea small part.... very small. but they do effect what social class u r born in.. etc... lol tigers are the shit

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Re: Falsifying evolution? [Re: Newfound_wonder]
    #10282660 -

Newfound_wonder said:
Sure, evolution can be falsified.  If you can find a chicken fossil in the Pre-cambrian period, evolution will be turned over on its side.

...Good luck finding one though :smile:.


What if they exist and we can't find them?  That seems a little like creating a hypothesis because you think it can't be falsified.

But, nope, the fossil (that was zouden's argument) would not falsify the claim that the biodiversity of life came about by natural causes.  It would cause the phylogenetic tree to be revised, that's all.  And the "tree" has been revised so many times now it resembles a bush.


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Re: Falsifying evolution? [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10282662 -

:lol:


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Re: Falsifying evolution? [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #10282663 -

damn phylogenetic... damn jeapordy motherfucker lol

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Re: Falsifying evolution? [Re: Mastamike1118]
    #10282720 -

What if unicorns exist and we can't find them?  If you want to prove that evolution is not true, you have to find evidence that counters the overwhelmingly vast amount of evidence that supports the theory of evolution.

Science has brought us out of the dark ages.  Science increased the life expectancy from 30 years to 80 years.  Science brought us the airplane and cellphones.  Science brought us LSD and MDMA.


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If it's good for fungus, it's good for us...

Edited by Newfound_wonder (05/04/09 08:32 AM)

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Re: Falsifying evolution? [Re: Newfound_wonder]
    #10282775 -

Newfound_wonder said:
What if unicorns exist and we can't find them?  If you want to prove that evolution is not true, you have to find evidence that counters the overwhelmingly vast amount of evidence that supports the theory of evolution.

Science has brought us out of the dark ages.  Science increased the life expectancy from 30 years to 80 years.  Science brought us the airplane and cellphones.  Science brought us LSD and MDMA.


Don't forget the toaster ovens.

So please, show us a way to falsify evolution as described.  If you can't, it isn't science, but a metaphysical research program.


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Re: Falsifying evolution? [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #10282834 -

Mr. Mushrooms said:
This thread was born out of a discussion between zouden and myself found here.

My question is, for all those extremely intelligent, well-read posters in the forum, can you falsify evolution?

Definition of evolution:

The biodiversity of life came about by natural causes.

Exactly how would you falsify such a statement?




I don't know if it could be at this point, it'd likely just be falsified to a particular class of new life that we've found.


Evolution could hav ebeen falsified, I'd imagine, by finding wide differences in similar things that should have been genetically similar but weren't.  Large discords between the relevant progression of species with no explanation nor alternate sources for the genetic material.


Discovering huge gaps in the fossil record where a racoon appears out of nowhere in the microbial soup. 



Basically, once we were able to do genetic comparisons if we had found unexplainable sources of gentic material and no similarity between things that should have been genetically related, it would have been hard to accept the theory I'd imagine (though I'm not educated in evolution).


Being falsifiable doesn't mean it has to be falsifiable now.  It would be difficult to disprove the theory of relativity wrong as applied to the usual universe portions that we investigate because its been so well documented.  That doesn't mean it wasn't falsifiable- we've just allready tested it in many ways allready and found it to be accurate, well after the theory was proffered.

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Re: Falsifying evolution? [Re: johnm214]
    #10282866 -

If causation is an unjustified principle then evolution is false.

If there is no such thing as the "natural" then evolution is wrong, by that definition.  By this I mean that if reality is one, and there is no such thing as creation, development, or destruction, then evolution is nothing more than a useful way of describing that.

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Re: Falsifying evolution? [Re: johnm214]
    #10282873 -

johnm214 said:
Mr. Mushrooms said:
This thread was born out of a discussion between zouden and myself found here.

My question is, for all those extremely intelligent, well-read posters in the forum, can you falsify evolution?

Definition of evolution:

The biodiversity of life came about by natural causes.

Exactly how would you falsify such a statement?




I don't know if it could be at this point, it'd likely just be falsified to a particular class of new life that we've found.


Evolution could hav ebeen falsified, I'd imagine, by finding wide differences in similar things that should have been genetically similar but weren't.  Large discords between the relevant progression of species with no explanation nor alternate sources for the genetic material.


Discovering huge gaps in the fossil record where a racoon appears out of nowhere in the microbial soup. 



Basically, once we were able to do genetic comparisons if we had found unexplainable sources of gentic material and no similarity between things that should have been genetically related, it would have been hard to accept the theory I'd imagine (though I'm not educated in evolution).


Being falsifiable doesn't mean it has to be falsifiable now.  It would be difficult to disprove the theory of relativity wrong as applied to the usual universe portions that we investigate because its been so well documented.  That doesn't mean it wasn't falsifiable- we've just allready tested it in many ways allready and found it to be accurate, well after the theory was proffered.


All good points, John.  Imagine if every organism had such a DNA that it was completely unrelated to every other organism.  That would be the death knell for natural selection.  However, I wasn't talking about descent with modification; I was talking about natural causes.  So, in fact, none of those ideas would falsify evolution as described.


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Re: Falsifying evolution? [Re: xFrockx]
    #10282877 -

xFrockx said:
If causation is an unjustified principle then evolution is false.

If there is no such thing as the "natural" then evolution is wrong, by that definition.  By this I mean that if reality is one, and there is no such thing as creation, development, or destruction, then evolution is nothing more than a useful way of describing that.


Give the man a cigar!  :eek:

By Jove I think you're got it.

Now, is there any evidence that causation is unjustified?  And if you're thinking Hume boy do I have a surprise for you. :wink:


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Re: Falsifying evolution? [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #10282888 -

I heard some guy talking about how would an arm turn into a wing. It wouldn't make that leap in one generation. It would take many steps. The problem is that these intermediate steps would not be beneficial to the organism, so why would they occur?

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Re: Falsifying evolution? [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #10282946 -

It would be unjustified if reality is really all one, like my second example.

Whats this about hume though?

Edited by xFrockx (05/04/09 09:56 AM)

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Re: Falsifying evolution? [Re: mad_cow]
    #10282952 -

"The problem is that these intermediate steps would not be beneficial to the organism, so why would they occur? "

Thats an assumption, but once the genes mutate I'd imagine things could go very quickly.  Look at the divide between fish and reptiles, with all the amphibians in between, slight variations can be beneficial, there's no reason they always wouldn't be.

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Re: Falsifying evolution? [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #10283061 -

Mr. Mushrooms said:
Now, is there any evidence that causation is unjustified?  And if you're thinking Hume boy do I have a surprise for you. :wink:


Unjustified is not the same as inferred.



One piece of evidence that would work to falsify evolution is if the telomere we have in the middle of our chromosomes werent there.  That is a testable prediction made by they theory of evolution by natural selection.  There are many way it could be falsified; but it never has been.


Quote:
Definition of evolution:

The biodiversity of life came about by natural causes.


Thats not the definition of evolution.  I never cease to be confused and perturbed by the weird definitions you philosophers choose to adopt.  Sometimes I think its out of sheer ignorance, other times I think it is purposeful just to confuse the layperson and browbeat them with confusing and archaic terms.  Here I think you are just redefining evolution to better suit your own belief system.

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Re: Falsifying evolution? [Re: xFrockx]
    #10283111 -

Mr. Mushrooms said:
All good points, John.  Imagine if every organism had such a DNA that it was completely unrelated to every other organism.  That would be the death knell for natural selection.  However, I wasn't talking about descent with modification; I was talking about natural causes.  So, in fact, none of those ideas would falsify evolution as described.




I ignored the observation qubit made as I thought it irrelevant, but you are addressing the cause  particularly?


And your trying to determine, what?  If it can be detected if the cause is natural or not?



No, I would say it cannot be detected as by definition we cannot observe unnatural phenomena.


But given that we've never detected unnatural phenomena to anybody's ability to demonstrate I would say it is a moot point- who cares?  Evolution doesn't disprove all forms of intelligent design, probably most  can coexist with evolution.

One's science, however; and the other is just trying to fit a philosophical supposition to the data we have.
xFrockx said:
If causation is an unjustified principle then evolution is false.

If there is no such thing as the "natural" then evolution is wrong, by that definition.  By this I mean that if reality is one, and there is no such thing as creation, development, or destruction, then evolution is nothing more than a useful way of describing that.




huh?


and what does any scientific theory strive to be but a useful way of describing our observable world?  That's not really a drawback, its the pinnacle of achievment.

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