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Re: Why people believe in evolution despite the fact it is a failed theory with no scientific basis? [Re: flower_child]
    #6709422 -

flower_child said:
fivepointer said:
All this ranting, but no one has addressed the undeniable fact that more ordered and complex information does not arise out of random disturbance of existing information.

The theory is absurd.



I did in my post that you quoted and said I didn't.

Things get more complex because they develop new traits which allow them to survive and pass on when they reproduce.

It's like building one of those model airplanes that you can actually fly. It starts out as nothing, but over time more pieces are added until it's ready for takeoff. Evolution works in a similar fashion.

I think that's a poor analogy because the parts which comprise model airplanes don't assemble themselves in response to outside stimulus; they're consciously assembled.

I don't know anything about evolution per se, but the question of initial input has always been a problem for me. What was the initial catalyst for the jump from inorganic to organic, from single-cellular to multi-cellular, and from unconscious to self-aware? It seems to me like there must have been some outside input for such leaps to have occurred, but I am unaware of any plausible theories suggesting there was. Can anyone recommend some good reading on the subject?


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”

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Re: Why people believe in evolution despite the fact it is a failed theory with no scientific basis? [Re: Lion]
    #6709454 -

You're right. It wasn't a great analogy. But fivepointer believes in God, so why can't he at least consider that life is simply God's model airplane and that evolution is him putting the pieces together?


--------------------
Today while walking up the stairs
I met a man who wasn't there
He wasn't there again today
Oh how I wish he'd stay away

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Re: Why people believe in evolution despite the fact it is a failed theory with no scientific basis? [Re: Lion]
    #6709456 -

I think the path of evolution from dead matter to personal consciousness was preprogrammed into the original natural law. More specifically, I believe the relative strengths of the four elemental forces were designed so as to provide for the evolution of atoms, stars, heavier atoms, molecules, life and consciousness.

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Re: Why people believe in evolution despite the fact it is a failed theory with no scientific basis? [Re: fivepointer]
    #6709462 -

How does this complexity come into existence? It simply can't happen. Disordering of information never creates new more ordered and complex information

It is possible to deal a hand of bridge with all the same suit.
Not a great analogy, but a workable one.

The really big question is the one that bug asked, "How did the deck of cards come into being?"

Also, complexity does not have to be the same thing as ordered.

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Re: Why people believe in evolution despite the fact it is a failed theory with no scientific basis? [Re: flower_child]
    #6709467 -

flower_child said:
You're right. It wasn't a great analogy. But fivepointer believes in God, so why can't he at least consider that life is simply God's model airplane and that evolution is him putting the pieces together?


The science and the bible do not support evolution, so why should I?

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Re: Why people believe in evolution despite the fact it is a failed theory with no scientific basis? [Re: falcon]
    #6709485 -

falcon said:
How does this complexity come into existence? It simply can't happen. Disordering of information never creates new more ordered and complex information

It is possible to deal a hand of bridge with all the same suit.
Not a great analogy, but a workable one.

The really big question is the one that bug asked, "How did the deck of cards come into being?"

Also, complexity does not have to be the same thing as ordered.


You may get a reordering of cards, but you will not get cards that do not already exist in the deck (for example 10 of cups can never appear since it was never in the deck to begin with).

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Re: Why people believe in evolution despite the fact it is a failed theory with no scientific basis? [Re: fivepointer]
    #6709496 -

the thoery of evolution is consistent with every observation that has yet been made of the living world. it is incredibly well supported. the idea that it is somehow controversial as a scientific theory is a myth. it is a cornerstone of modern biology, accepted by nearly all serious biologists. it would be no more controversial than the theory of gravity if not for the fact that it goes against popular mythology by undermining one of the few "proofs" of god's existence christians still have to cling to.


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Re: Why people believe in evolution despite the fact it is a failed theory with no scientific basis? [Re: shroomydan]
    #6709534 -

shroomydan said:
You should read a biology text book sometime fivepointer, one from this millennia.


:lol: :stoned:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Why people believe in evolution despite the fact it is a failed theory with no scientific basis? [Re: fivepointer]
    #6709536 -

fivepointer said:
falcon said:
How does this complexity come into existence? It simply can't happen. Disordering of information never creates new more ordered and complex information

It is possible to deal a hand of bridge with all the same suit.
Not a great analogy, but a workable one.

The really big question is the one that bug asked, "How did the deck of cards come into being?"

Also, complexity does not have to be the same thing as ordered.


You may get a reordering of cards, but you will not get cards that do not already exist in the deck (for example 10 of cups can never appear since it was never in the deck to begin with).


This is your error. There are not some limited number of genes in an organism to be recombined like fifty two cards in a bridge deck. There are only four building blocks which form base pairs. These base pairs form patterns that determine genetics. A bacteria is playing with the same deck as human. we just have more pairs arraigned in different orders.

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Re: Why people believe in evolution despite the fact it is a failed theory with no scientific basis? [Re: fivepointer]
    #6709542 -

fivepointer said:
As I stated in my original post so called "micro-evolution" (changes within a pre-existing kind of life form) does exit, but "macro-evolution" does not. Where does the information come from to go from a lower order life form to a highter order more complex life form? How do you go from a single cell to a whole human? The information which is more ordered and extremely complex can not simply appear out of no where. Simple logic just on this one point alone blows the theory out of the water. Many other points can be brought up that conflicts with the theory.

The real reason for the resistance to challenging the "theory" is men have preconceptions, and these preconceptions prevent them from seeing simple logic.


Actually molecules that are self-replicating, become increasing more complex, and natural selection guides the effiency of that replication.

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Re: Why people believe in evolution despite the fact it is a failed theory with no scientific basis? [Re: shroomydan]
    #6709546 -

shroomydan said:
This is your error. There are not some limited number of genes in an organism to be recombined like fifty two cards in a bridge deck. There are only four building blocks which form base pairs. These base pairs form patterns that determine genetics. A bacteria is playing with the same deck as human. we just have more pairs arraigned in different orders.


Thanks for posting that. My mind finds scientific ideas much more intriguing than ranting about some unsubstantiated ideaology. I've had some acid trips that got me thinking about the nature of our DNA, and its great to read something of substance about it.

I often find science to be more of a spiritual path than most religion in that science is directly based upon pure observation of the nature of reality. In fact, I've read quotations from many accomplished scientists who have demonstrated their spiritual ideas pertaining to life, existance, reality. Its a path of understanding of what we directly perceive. :thumbup:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Why people believe in evolution despite the fact it is a failed theory with no scientific basis? [Re: fivepointer]
    #6709561 -

Quote:
Why people believe in the literal inerrancy of the Bible despite the fact it is a failed dogma with no scientific basis?


There, I fixed your thread title.


--------------------

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Re: Why people believe in evolution despite the fact it is a failed theory with no scientific basis? [Re: shroomydan]
    #6709595 -

shroomydan said:
fivepointer said:
falcon said:
How does this complexity come into existence? It simply can't happen. Disordering of information never creates new more ordered and complex information

It is possible to deal a hand of bridge with all the same suit.
Not a great analogy, but a workable one.

The really big question is the one that bug asked, "How did the deck of cards come into being?"

Also, complexity does not have to be the same thing as ordered.


You may get a reordering of cards, but you will not get cards that do not already exist in the deck (for example 10 of cups can never appear since it was never in the deck to begin with).


This is your error. There are not some limited number of genes in an organism to be recombined like fifty two cards in a bridge deck. There are only four building blocks which form base pairs. These base pairs form patterns that determine genetics. A bacteria is playing with the same deck as human. we just have more pairs arraigned in different orders.


The complexity of the pairs is astonishing. So how can a random mutation, which 99.9% of the time is harmful, recombine and reorder mutitudes of the pairs, in a massive way, in a precise manner, to create a life form of a different kind? (for example cow turns into a horse) Has something like this ever been observed? How can higher order information be recoded in, by chance? What is the probability of the happening by chance, 1 in 100,000,000,000,000? And even it it did happen could the change be passed on by mating? So the change would have to happen a male and female at the same time, since animals of unlike kind can not produce offspring.

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Re: Why people believe in evolution despite the fact it is a failed theory with no scientific basis? [Re: fivepointer]
    #6709609 -

My uneducated take on it is that stimulus in the environment imposes influence on the DNA and, if the DNA is receptive, the DNA will change to better suit the environment in which it exists.

Interaction with reality changes reality and oneself. It makes sense, a plethora of variables in a state of constant interaction with each other, everything changes.

No rusty concept such as "g*d" required! Divine intervention is not necessary for the nature of reality to change and unfold. :sorry:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Why people believe in evolution despite the fact it is a failed theory with no scientific basis? [Re: fivepointer]
    #6709624 -

fivepointer said:
Micro-evolution is a reordering of existing information, this is seen around us. However macro-evolution is not a reordering, but creation of entirely new complex information. How does this complexity come into existence? It simply can't happen. Disordering of information never creates new more ordered and complex information


Are you my psych professor or do all creationists use the same desperate arguments?

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Re: Why people believe in evolution despite the fact it is a failed theory with no scientific basis? [Re: it stars saddam]
    #6709660 -

it stars saddam said:
fivepointer said:
Micro-evolution is a reordering of existing information, this is seen around us. However macro-evolution is not a reordering, but creation of entirely new complex information. How does this complexity come into existence? It simply can't happen. Disordering of information never creates new more ordered and complex information


Are you my psych professor or do all creationists use the same desperate arguments?


The only desperate ones are those that hold to theories devoid of truth.

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Re: Why people believe in evolution despite the fact it is a failed theory with no scientific basis? [Re: fivepointer]
    #6709662 -

fivepointer said:
The only desperate ones are those that hold to theories devoid of truth.


Indeed.


--------------------

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Re: Why people believe in evolution despite the fact it is a failed theory with no scientific basis? [Re: fivepointer]
    #6709664 -

fivepointer said:
it stars saddam said:
fivepointer said:
Micro-evolution is a reordering of existing information, this is seen around us.  However macro-evolution is not a reordering, but creation of entirely new complex information.  How does this complexity come into existence?  It simply can't happen.  Disordering of information never creates new more ordered and complex information


Are you my psych professor or do all creationists use the same desperate arguments?


The only desperate ones are those that hold to theories devoid of truth.


Agreed! This was precisely his argument five! :lol:


--------------------

Edited by Sinbad (03/25/07 01:58 PM)

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Re: Why people believe in evolution despite the fact it is a failed theory with no scientific basis? [Re: fivepointer]
    #6709708 -

All this ranting, but no one has addressed the undeniable fact that more ordered and complex information does not arise out of random disturbance of existing information.

Highly organized weather patterns (like hurricanes) arise from random movements of air molecules. All that is required is an input of energy to collimate them, as from the sun.

You're naively paraphrasing the laws of thermodynamics without understanding of them.

BTW, care to address the three examples of speciation I just pointed out?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Why people believe in evolution despite the fact it is a failed theory with no scientific basis? [Re: Lion]
    #6709735 -

It seems to me like there must have been some outside input for such leaps to have occurred, but I am unaware of any plausible theories suggesting there was.

The specific mechanism of the origin of life on Earth isn't known. However, it has been shown that amino acids can self-synthesis given the right conditions.

Chemists Stanley Miller's and Harold Urey's famous experiment in 1953 put water, methane, hydrogen, and ammonia in a closed, sterile environment with an electric spark to simulate lightning.

After a few days they analyzed the contents of the experiment and found that amino acids, the critical organic molecules essential to life out of which proteins are made, had appeared by themselves. The four carbon chemical bonds in the methane had broken free and rearranged themselves into the building blocks of life.

This happened without the benefit of a designer, alien, creator, or anything else besides water, methane, hydrogen, ammonia and a spark.

Although it is now believed that the Earth's atmosphere at the time of abiogenesis did not contain enough carbon or free nitrogen for this to have been the synthetic route to the first organism, it nevertheless clearly established that a natural processes COULD have produced the first life on Earth and more modern experiments only confirm this.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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