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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: UFOs and Scientific Research [Re: ]
    #1009913 - 10/31/02 01:14 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I think Swami is quite on topic.

As far as the mocking... when you deal with the same shitty arguments and non-evidence for ~20 years (I'm guessing here), wouldn't you become at least a little snide?

Sorry that your belief system has been challenged so...


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: UFOs and Scientific Research [Re: tekramrepus]
    #1009917 - 10/31/02 01:16 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

This post is a bit off topic, but I'd just like to say I myself have seen a UFO.

I have NEVER claimed that people don't see unusual objects. As you and I both say, one cannot come to any conclusions about the nature or purpose of the object. Nor do I see how it is possible for anyone to do any further research whatsoever on your sighting (the point of this thread) other than to get collaboration.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Anonymous

Re: UFOs and Scientific Research [Re: Swami]
    #1012089 - 11/01/02 03:42 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)


As far as the mocking... when you deal with the same shitty arguments and non-evidence for ~20 years (I'm guessing here), wouldn't you become at least a little snide?
Sorry that your belief system has been challenged so...

Challenged so? what sort of challenge would that be? thats not any kind of 'challenge', wtf.


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Invisibletekramrepus
Female User Gallery
Registered: 02/20/02
Posts: 2,232
Re: UFOs and Scientific Research [Re: Swami]
    #1014819 - 11/02/02 02:58 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I agree with you Swami.

You can't make educated decisions without first researching, and you cannot research what is not available.

Is this a concept similiar to the one you propose?


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: UFOs and Scientific Research [Re: Swami]
    #1015012 - 11/02/02 04:30 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Mass sightings and anecdotes are for investigative reporters, not scientific researchers.

That's a limited interpretation of the scientific method. Kepler was theorising about the nature of the universe way before he had any evidence whatsoever to back up his ideas. Einstein's ideas only had any "proof" decades after he thought of them.

The idea that scientists can only address something if the object is laid on a table in front of them is quite frankly ludicrous.

Science is about suggesting possible theories which are based on available evidence, intuition and knowledge. These theories may not become proved for hundreds of years. Most of the currently accepted ideas about the nature of the universe were considered outlandish nonsense the first time they were suggested.



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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineEightball
whore consumer
Male User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/21/01
Posts: 3,013
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Re: UFOs and Scientific Research [Re: Swami]
    #1015162 - 11/02/02 05:58 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

my mom being a staight edge person claims to have seen a UFO in rochester NY in ~1978 with a friend of hers in their apt. she looked out the window and saw it hovering at rooftop height maybe 50-100 feet away. frankly i believe her and i think the question should be "who is responcible for UFOs" rather than "are all these people just seeing things?"


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If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on.you'll see devils tearing your life away.
But...if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels
Freeing you from the earth.


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OfflineSterile
mushroom lover
 User Gallery

Registered: 03/16/01
Posts: 2,526
Loc: under the Amanita
Last seen: 5 months, 28 days
Re: UFOs and Scientific Research [Re: Swami]
    #1015228 - 11/02/02 08:51 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Have you people ever noticed the similarity of an Amanita muscaria and a UFO's landing? (with that light beam coming from the centre representing the stem) Well, often, things are a bit more simple than a shroomer might think... Imagination is not scientific evidence, although its true...its in our head.
Just as the spaceship approaches earth, so does the Amanita.Not only it comes to our world, its able to help humans make intergalactic trips and approach other realityz too , planets and places they have never been to. Dreams.
That come true,or better that we get to know they always where true.
What i want to say by that,is that people think science needs evidence to be science, when our whole lifes are felt and lived without any evidence or at least a reality confirmation.
Todays scientists have failed to achive balance.which is the most important thing in investigating this perfectly balanced universe.Balance between the spiritual and the physical.
We shroomers, do have a bridge tho, a bridge that connects the two worlds, and helps us expand our consciousness.
WE ARE THE SCIENTISTS.


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The Source Of The Force
Is The Power Of The Mind


"if you don't like what you're doing, you can always pick up your needle and move to another groove." - timothy leary"
Anno: "-I can do anything with those clouds!"
Annos Tek




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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: UFOs and Scientific Research [Re: Eightball]
    #1015549 - 11/02/02 12:31 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

frankly i believe her and i think the question should be "who is responcible[sic] for UFOs" rather than "are all these people just seeing things?"

And just how do you propose going about answering this question?


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleShroomismM
Space Travellin
Male User Gallery
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Registered: 02/13/00
Posts: 66,006
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Re: UFOs and Scientific Research [Re: Swami]
    #1015561 - 11/02/02 12:35 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Ask the drivers

Basically, all the studying and scientific research in the world will get you nowhere in finding out where they come from. We just have to wait for them to tell us... and they will. (edit: err...have been... but some people don't pay attention :wink:)


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Edited by Shroomism (11/02/02 12:36 PM)


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: UFOs and Scientific Research [Re: Xlea321]
    #1015590 - 11/02/02 12:44 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Kepler was theorising...

Einstein's ideas...

The idea that scientists can only address...

This is a typical Alex response. First change the relevant word from "research" to "theorize" to "ideation" to "address". Any learned person knows that these four words have quite different connotations.

...something if the object is laid on a table in front of them is quite frankly ludicrous.
Then Alex shifts into the classic "straw-man" argument, by making up a statement that the author did NOT say and then shooting it down. Most areas of scientific research are not done in a laboratory or on a table.

Science is about suggesting possible theories which are based on available evidence, intuition and knowledge.
True, but this is NOT research. This not the gathering of further data and testing these hypotheses.

These theories may not become proved for hundreds of years. Most of the
currently accepted ideas about the nature of the universe were considered outlandish nonsense the first time they were suggested.

...and finally, he finishes with a non sequitur.







--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinemachineelf368
self-transforming

Registered: 09/05/02
Posts: 119
Loc: in the mountains, awaitin...
Last seen: 16 years, 9 months
Re: UFOs and Scientific Research [Re: Swami]
    #1018287 - 11/03/02 02:00 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I'm sorry I don't have any links in front of me right at this moment, but many are available from art bell's site. It seems to me that there are basically three types ufo-related research. there's research into sightings which mostly consists of fuzzy pixelated things, as has been discussed already. Not much 'evidence' there. More interesting is studying abductees. For example Paul Laffoley discovered during a routine brain scan that a metallic object of unknown origin had been implanted in his brain in close proximity to his pineal gland. He claims this object is of extraterrestrial origin and inspires him for his very, um, "unique" paintings. That's the only name I can think of right now, but there are others. IF people have metal things in their brains and/or noses, then that seems pretty objectively testable to me. The third line of reserach, and to me personally the most interesting, is studying evidence of "ancient astronauts." For example there's this rock several hundreds thousands of years old with hexagonal metal pieces of unknown composition imbedded in it. Things like that and, to some people, the Nazca Plains warrant research.

As to your original question of what do believers want out of scientists, I believe they want to be taken seriously. There are doctors and scientists exploring this area, but they're not taken seriously by the mainstream because their ideas are "pseudoscience." Science is all about maintaining the status quo, from early IQ tests and craniology "proving" the inferiority of Africans and Jews to the modern idea that our everyday reality is the only "proper" one. Science is not this impartial, objective instrument of logic, it's carried out by people who have theiur own prejudices and ideas of how the world is. Parapsychologists, cryptozoologists, UFOologists and the like only want their ideas taken seriously as a "real" avenue of inquiry.

In my opinion.
-m


--------------------
(the above was deciphered from phi (~1.62) using an advanced alphanumeric conversion algorhythm and should not be perceived as meaningful.)


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: UFOs and Scientific Research [Re: machineelf368]
    #1018339 - 11/03/02 02:20 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

In reply to:

Science is all about maintaining the status quo, from early IQ tests and craniology "proving" the inferiority of Africans and Jews to the modern idea that our everyday reality is the only "proper" one.



Don't confuse pseudo science (craniology) with real science. Just because someone claims that they are using science doesn't mean they are being true to the scientific method.

In reply to:

Science is not this impartial, objective instrument of logic, it's carried out by people who have theiur own prejudices and ideas of how the world is.



Behavior or motivations of people using a tool or system says nothing about the soundess of it. Science is value neutral, what humans do with the knowledge or what they decide to study is another matter. The methods themselves are sound. A good scientist's real agenda is to discover the true nature of things (let the chips fall where they may) for this will allow humans to better adapt themselves to the universe.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Offlinedeepr
the dancer

Registered: 05/24/02
Posts: 238
Loc: nzl
Last seen: 15 years, 10 months
Re: UFOs and Scientific Research [Re: Evolving]
    #1018470 - 11/03/02 03:09 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

heres a sighting in te anau, spotted by a group of roving fly-fishermen
*notice the vapor trail, very interesting, at what appears to be this relatively low atmospherical level, it could suggest some form of advanced internal combustion...



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OfflineStrumpling
Neuronaut
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
Loc: Hyperspace
Last seen: 10 years, 5 months
Re: UFOs and Scientific Research [Re: Swami]
    #1018683 - 11/03/02 04:12 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Swami I see where you're coming from.

People say "science needs to look into this SERIOUSLY!"

uhh, what should they look into?


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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Offlinejohnnyfive
Burning withCircles!
Registered: 07/02/02
Posts: 886
Loc: Hell
Last seen: 17 years, 5 months
Re: UFOs and Scientific Research [Re: Strumpling]
    #1019375 - 11/03/02 10:46 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

http://www.freedomdomain.com/ufo.htm


I don't think REAL aliens are ready to speak or show (for that matter) themselfs to humans yet, except maybe under the influence.


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And the gameshow host rings the buzzer (brrnnntt) oh and now you get a face full of face!


Edited by johnnyfive (11/03/02 10:49 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: UFOs and Scientific Research [Re: Swami]
    #1019396 - 11/03/02 10:56 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

...and finally, he finishes with a non sequitur.

:grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:

And by the way, UFO's are real. :tongue:

Cheers, 


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: UFOs and Scientific Research [Re: ]
    #1019429 - 11/03/02 11:04 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I agree, UFO's are real.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: UFOs and Scientific Research [Re: Evolving]
    #1021145 - 11/04/02 03:23 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I completely disagree... I think every flying object has been identified.
:tongue: 


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Offlinemachineelf368
self-transforming

Registered: 09/05/02
Posts: 119
Loc: in the mountains, awaitin...
Last seen: 16 years, 9 months
Re: UFOs and Scientific Research [Re: Evolving]
    #1022388 - 11/04/02 10:26 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

well you're right, craniology isn't "real science," but IQ tests are, and they're real prejudiced. But what quantum physics has shown us is that there's no separation between observed and observer. The ideal of science is to be impartial, but that can never be truly realized. We can eliminate all known prejudice, but we can't eliminate unknown, institutionalized prejudice. I'm thinking of G. Stanley Hall, one of the founding members of American Psychology, who had scientifically shown that higher education makes women infertile, and that women were less intelligent than men. Or that book The Bell Curve by two scientists who showed statistically that Blacks are inferior to Whites. "Science" may be objective and value neutral, but it can only be utilized by "People," who can be neither. You also assume there is one "The Truth," which is highly debatable, that not's the scope of this thread. Or is it?

They've done studies where, for example, two groups of scientists test a group of rats in a maze. One group is told these rats were bred to do really well at mazes, the other group is told the opposite. The first group finds the rats to do really well at the maze, the second group finds the rats to do poorly. It's the same rats. And there' sno way the experimenters could have biased the rats by verbal or nonverbal cues. It's just that expectations determine the outcome so often. It's not always a matter of interpretation, either. These studies was just timing rats, nothing incredibly hard.
-m
(If anyone cares I have the references for these studies, done in 1961. PM me if you're curious.)


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(the above was deciphered from phi (~1.62) using an advanced alphanumeric conversion algorhythm and should not be perceived as meaningful.)


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OfflineDerby
Stranger

Registered: 11/04/02
Posts: 3
Last seen: 18 years, 11 months
Re: UFOs and Scientific Research [Re: Swami]
    #1022496 - 11/04/02 11:07 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

There has been some scientific inquiry into the possible antecedants and after effects of UFO experiences. Check out The Omega Project by Kenneth Ring.....


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