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Creationism / Evolution
    #2090640 -

I understand there probably has been quite a few posts reguarding the never ending debate between creationism and evolution. However, I have really been into the idea of how life and the earth were brought to be.

I'll tell you a little bit about myself, as I am not really a familiar face around the S&P forum... I had been brought up by a Catholic mother and father, yet have only been to church 3-4 times in my life. Since then, I have studied the theory of evolution and ecology. All through my life I have always wondered about creationism and religion, and never have met many people who actually knew the teachings of the bible.

My friend of about 2 years and I are mushroom hunting partners. We hike for hours upon hours through the forests talking about spirituality, philosophy, and theories. What a great and beautiful place to let your mind go.

Well, he is a Jehova's Witness, and recites quotes from the bible left and right. He is an Old Earth Creationist, which means that he believes that the earth is older than 10,000 years old, but everthing was created and is ruled by god. At the same time, he studies evolution and ecology as well. The guy is simply brilliant in the overall knowlage that he has.

We basically debate the entire time about how the earth was brought to be. Throwing facts back and fourth and what not.

However I have been beginning to realize that the debate between the two theories are impossible to end. There is no way we can ever know (yet) which is right or wrong. The fact that he believes that the bible is inerrant, all physical evidence is judged by comparing it to Genesis. No evidence from nature can disprove his belief. Once a person accepts a religious text as the basis of their scientific studies, they no longer are free to follow where the data leads; they cease being a scientist.

I personally feel our god is indeed the earth. The earth supports us with everything essential for survival, it protects us from harmful UV rays, creates us and destroys us. It is the basis and holder of time.

I just wanted to hear some people's views or theories on how the earth was created and some good points that support either if it was creationism or evolution.

Fact is, no one will EVER know how the earth was created. That bugs me a lot. There was not one single person who ever witnessed the creation of earth, thus we have no absolute proof.

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Re: Creationism / Evolution [Re: angryshroom]
    #2090655 -

Creationism is 100% bullshit pseudoscience. While it's true that we won't ever know for sure how the earth was created(tho I have a pretty good idea), the fossil evidence shows that creatures do, in fact, mutate over time to become new species. This is indisputable. It is not theory--it is fact. What is theory is the idea of natural selection--the idea that the mutations are random and that the strongest of them survive. It is not evolution that is up for debate--it is Darwinism.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: Creationism / Evolution [Re: angryshroom]
    #2090818 -

There is a great book that I found at the library (really sorry that I cannot remember the author or title) written by a Native American about how both creationsism and evolution were similarly-based on Western religion (Creationism: God formed the Universe from nothing; Science: The Big Bang formed the Universe from nothing.) and how both were wrong. Those are only two possible paradigms out of many.

Definitely worth a read if you can find it from my vague description.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Creationism / Evolution [Re: Swami]
    #2090876 -

evolution is not the "big bang theory", our entire understanding of biology can only be comprehended through evolution. ( formation of species through passing of traits). its impossible to comprehend the workings of organic life at the molecular level without applying the concepts of evolution to their existence.

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Re: Creationism / Evolution [Re: ]
    #2090934 -

There are many descrepancies in fossil mutations, the fossil records are not even close to indisputable.

Evolution is a "theory":

A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena.

Sounds like both Evolution and creationism are theories.



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"In order to rally people, governments need enemies. They want us to be afraid, to hate, so we will rally behind them. And if they do not have a real enemy, they will invent one in order to mobilize us."

Thich Nhat Hanh

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Re: Creationism / Evolution [Re: angryshroom]
    #2091049 -

Here's my current working theory:

The universe came into existence some 15-20 billion years ago, probably in something resembling the Big Bang theory (cosmic expansion, reversed, does lead back down to a singularity).

You asked about the Earth, so I'll skip ahead 10-15 billion years to it's formation. I think this part is fairly straight forward and well understood in the framework of modern-physics (which are at least a fair representation of the physical world). A giant cloud of dust and gas, left over by the supernova of an earlier star, began to collapse towards a central point. The sun formed at the center of the cloud, mostly made of hydrogen used for nuclear fusion. The earth and other planets formed in orbits around the sun, from dust and heavier elements.

Life is the big question of mine at the moment. Intuitively I feel that life started on it's own, without a specific helping hand. I am not discrediting the idea of a Creator, but I feel that if there is a Creator then creation as a whole is the Creator's. I don't think the Creator would design something that requires constant maintenance :smirk:

So, I think that life began as a simple consequence of existence. I'm still working on a better explanation of this idea. Life probably exists because it has to exist (everything happens because it has to happen, I think). Chaos theory is a good support here. The chaos of the entire universe would cause a form of Order to emerge: Life.

I think Evolution is how we got here, as you can tell. I'm pretty sure that the Creation stories in the Bible and other religious texts are just that: stories. Stories written thousands of years ago by humans who could not yet comprehend many of the things going on around them in the physical world.

There is so much elegance and symmetry in the universe. This must be an image, or reflection, of the Creator (should one exist). I think the Creator would go about the creation in a much more elegant way than creating everything "as is".


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Creationism / Evolution [Re: TheDarkSideof_Paco]
    #2091101 -

What "discrepancies" are you referring to? The fact that there are mutations that didn't lead anywhere? Duh. That only gives more credibility to the natural selection theory(which is a theory to explain the fact of evolution).


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: Creationism / Evolution [Re: ]
    #2091111 -

evolution is not the "big bang theory"

Yes and no, but note that I did not say that it did. (Go back and reread please.) Evolutionary theory starts in the middle somewhere with ammonia and lightning or after the first life-form evolved, but the puzzle is much deeper. Either way, my argument still holds.

Evolution: creatures come into being based on laws of physics and bio-chemistry. These laws just are.

Creationism: creatures come into being based on the mind of God. God just is.

The game is roughly the same only the semantics change.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Creationism / Evolution [Re: Swami]
    #2091244 -

So true...

I've always pondered the possibility of the continuous, eternal universe --> it's always been here, it will always be here.

It's funny how the ultimate question is often framed as a projection of humankind's need to relate itself to everything else. I sometimes think that the concept of cause and effect is somewhat anthropomorphic as well - humans tend to have a hard time coping without intention (real or fantasy). This might be part of the reason why I am such a fierce opponent of determinism, as it is a little too convenient.

I'm going to leave it at that... I could rant on this for hours.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: Creationism / Evolution [Re: Sclorch]
    #2091258 -

I'm going to leave it at that... I could rant on this for hours.

You also said that you could ***k for hours, but your girlfriend told me a different story, so pardon if I am inclined to believe that you are exaggerating. Methinks you used up your entire rant in 30 seconds flat.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Creationism / Evolution [Re: Swami]
    #2091272 -

hehehe

She told you I can pack in only thirty seconds? Man, she is dead wrong... there's no way I could get my suits and shirts ready that fast. No way at all...


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: Creationism / Evolution [Re: Sclorch]
    #2091278 -

The actual dirty word in mind was "w-o-r-k" *shudder*. I hate to even think about that. :smile: 


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Creationism / Evolution [Re: Swami]
    #2091283 -

Oh... right...
Yeah, if it's not stimulating my mind in just the right way, there's no way in hell I could ***k for hours.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: Creationism / Evolution [Re: Sclorch]
    #2091289 -

I apologize folks for derailing the topic. Let's return now to the exciting world of polywogs, alien artificial insemination, chaos and the God-Mind...


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Creationism / Evolution [Re: Swami]
    #2091296 -

Don't forget RODS!!! :rolleyes: 


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: Creationism / Evolution [Re: Sclorch]
    #2091306 -

Don't forget RODS!!!

How could I? I met The Rodman last year. I was playing the grand piano in the NB Marriot lobby and in he walked with a skirt on and totally f**cked up on drugs and alcohol (is this redundant?). I was playing some original boogie-woogie and he high-fived me after my performance. (My AIDS test came up negative. *Whew*)


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The proof is in the pudding.

Edited by Swami (11/11/03 11:43 AM)

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Re: Creationism / Evolution [Re: Swami]
    #2091465 -

http://www.gaianxaos.com/HolographicRealityOfBeing.htm explains the holographic reality theory in such a way that creationism and evolution really don't matter... Besides stimulating conversation which can inerrantly lead to grammatical thought projections, and occassionaly ego's projected (and more often than not, amplified) over the internet.



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No one knows the worth of innocence till he knows it is gone forever, and that money can't buy it back. Not the saint, but the sinner that repenteth, is he to whom the full length and breadth, and height and depth, of life's meaning is revealed. Good and evil loose all objective meaning and are seen as equally necessary and contrasting elements in the masterpiece that is the universe.

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Re: Creationism / Evolution [Re: nubious]
    #2091475 -

heres my theory; theories are a bunch of bullshit/play-things that help people sell books to idiots.

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Re: Creationism / Evolution [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2091481 -

Mixomatosis said:
heres my theory; theories are a bunch of bullshit/play-things that help people sell books to idiots.


Almost everything that composes science is just a theory. Even scientific laws could technically be disproven if something changed. If theories are a bunch of bullshit, than science is a bunch of bullshit.
Right?
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Creationism / Evolution [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2091495 -

suspend your disbelief all day long

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Re: Creationism / Evolution [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2091506 -

Mixomatosis said:
suspend your disbelief all day long


Should I suspend it in the clouds, or in the fjord? I susposse I will need something to make sure it doesn't float away if I am to suspend it in the clouds, and I would need some sort of liquid suspension system to make sure my disbelief doesn't float away in the cold Norwegian waters..

Won't I be prone to believing in all sorts of nonsense with my disbelief suspended, though?
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Creationism / Evolution [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2091508 -

you do believe in all sorts of nonsense, friend. Like the language you use, the money you spend, the thoughts you think, the emotions you feel.

Non-sense.

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Re: Creationism / Evolution [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2091529 -

Mixomatosis said:
you do believe in all sorts of nonsense, friend. Like the language you use, the money you spend, the thoughts you think, the emotions you feel.

Non-sense.


Yeah, sure sure. Life is pointless. Yep. I think I'll go hang myself...

Seriously though. You can deprive yourself of any meaning of life. However, you can also give your life meaning. If you live your life the way you want to live it, than it isn't pointless or nonsense. No matter how much others tell you it is. Life is fucking great. Thank you.
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Creationism / Evolution [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2091612 -

We evolve by creating

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