flip3084 said:

The original topic was evolution. The above state thickening of the skin, hair growth, and fatty content, is an example of evolution, neither random, nor pre-set, but merely a reaction. And enviornmental changes before human involvement were rarely random, and held much order. Therefore I am finding this topic quite paradoxal. Let's talk about an example of genetic mutations.. In England, there are a large number of people with longer noses. Started as a mutation stimulated by prolonged inbreeding of the royal families, but now hereditary..

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veritas may have alluded to the fact that most mutations are actually fatal, but some mutations are adaptively helpful (by pure chance) and these may contribute to altering the members of a population faced by selective pressures.

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Veritas said:

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veritas may have alluded to the fact that most mutations are actually fatal, but some mutations are adaptively helpful (by pure chance) and these may contribute to altering the members of a population faced by selective pressures.

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Indeed.  Let's not forget the neutral mutations, which are still quite heritable, and which may become helpful or fatal under particular environmental demands.

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Epigenetics describes the manner in which genetic expression is regulated.  It has nothing to do with "Experiences, memories, ideas, etc."  What is your point?

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If the change is not heritable, then it has nothing to do with biological evolution.

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OrgoneConclusion said:

I am still waiting for the male-pattern baldness gene to become helpful.

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The truth is that biological evolution is certainly influenced by changes in the organism that do not directly involve heredity. "[To] be epigenetic, something must 1) be heritable and 2) not be attributable to DNA sequence."

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In biology, evolution is change in the inherited traits of a population of organisms from one generation to the next.

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Arden said:

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Epigenetics describes the manner in which genetic expression is regulated.  It has nothing to do with "Experiences, memories, ideas, etc."  What is your point?

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My point is though you stated this:

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If the change is not heritable, then it has nothing to do with biological evolution.

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The truth is that biological evolution is certainly influenced by changes in the organism that do not directly involve heredity. "[To] be epigenetic, something must 1) be heritable and 2) not be attributable to DNA sequence."

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flip3084 said:

Evolution is not random, nor is it pre ordianed. It is a reponse to enviormental changes. Which is far from random. You are an intelligent person, I can tell. But that was far from a thought out proclimation.

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flip3084 said:

So, colder weather, does not promote, thicking of the skin, more hair, and a more concetrated fatty content?? I think you are proclaiming something that you can't prove. Animals, adapt to there enviornmet. And when it changes, overtime, the either change to survive in the new enviorment, or perish.. Tried and proven.

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The truth is that biological evolution is certainly influenced by changes in the organism that do not directly involve heredity.

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Alterations to the neural network caused by ideas are NOT heritable, and thus NOT part of biological evolution.

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all members with the trait have to be neutered or killed prior to reproductive activity.

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(anything with McKenna in it is not going to fly as evolutionary science)

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Microbiologist James A. Shapiro of the University of Chicago has done extensive research on this very question and has published a number of papers confirming that yes, there is an adaptation mechanism in DNA that is marvelously sophisticated. Mr. Shapiro has discovered that a protozoa, subjected to extreme environmental stress, can splice its own DNA into over 100,000 pieces (!), re-arrange them in a highly systematic fashion, producing new protozoa that inherit a new set of characteristics.

In other words DNA can be likened to a computer program that re-writes itself on the fly. In fact this is how our own immune systems adapt to a nearly infinite range of possible threats and ward off attackers - through this kind of sophisticated adaptation.

Mr. Shapiro published a fascinating paper in the Journal of Biological Physics called "A 21st Century View of Evolution." In this paper, the failed "Random Mutation" view is discarded and replaced with a much more sophisticated, engineered process. Instead of seeing DNA as a static database that is acted on by outside random forces, it is now seen as being more like a intelligent operating system that repairs files, corrects errors, and adapts to changing circumstances. It's nothing short of amazing.

Shapiro's work clearly shows that evolution, however it may be understood, is anything but a random process.

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Diaboleros said:

Mutations being random goes against everything science stands for.

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