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Re: Do you think evolution is blind? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9350362 -

I want a Darwin Award, but without having to kill myself in some retarded fashion. :hissyfit:


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Re: Do you think evolution is blind? [Re: Icelander]
    #9350372 -

Well then rate my sarcasm Orgoneconclusion. It is something to aspire and work towards. It is what us planners like to refer to as a "G-O-A-L"


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Nam-myoho-renge-kyo

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Re: Do you think evolution is blind? [Re: flip3084]
    #9350385 -

Goats Or Alien Landscape?


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Do you think evolution is blind? [Re: Icelander]
    #9350398 -

Well, that would obviously be the most deserving way, howabout some shrooms instead, for the connery in ya... I am a firm believer, that everyone has a little.


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Nam-myoho-renge-kyo

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Re: Do you think evolution is blind? [Re: flip3084]
    #9350411 -

as in the light sean forth?


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Do you think evolution is blind? [Re: flip3084]
    #9350413 -

I'm eating san pedro these days.


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Do you think evolution is blind? [Re: Icelander]
    #9350422 -

The Hispanic preacher at the local church?


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Re: Do you think evolution is blind? [Re: DieCommie]
    #9350431 -

DieCommie said:
daytripper23 said:
I do not understand how the prospect of freedom can arise from a causal principal (evolution)?


Causal principal?  Like, deterministic?  I dont think the mutations that facilitate evolution are deterministic.  The mutations are random, even if the selection mechanism is somewhat deterministic. 

So if you started a second universe in the exact same manner as this, then it wouldnt be identical to this one.  Life on earth could be different, or even not exist.

Back on topic... Systems like our body and mind are just very hard to understand, I dont think anybody has enough evidence and insight to claim that free will exists or not.  And I see no reason why the theory of evolution and natural selection would entail that it doesnt...  Understanding 1 particle or an infinite amount of particles is easier than understanding the the moderate amount in the mind oddly enough.  But I know philosophers claim to have alot of understanding about it, I just dont believe them usually.  :tongue:


Evolution is not random, nor is it pre ordianed. It is a reponse to enviormental changes. Which is far from random. You are an intelligent person, I can tell. But that was far from a thought out proclimation.


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Nam-myoho-renge-kyo

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Re: Do you think evolution is blind? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9350452 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
The Hispanic preacher at the local church?


no no no that was Juan pedro...



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Nam-myoho-renge-kyo

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Re: Do you think evolution is blind? [Re: flip3084]
    #9350460 -

Genetic mutations are not responsive to environmental changes (unless you're referring to mutagenic toxins.)  The environment determines which random mutations will win the evolution lottery & be passed on to the next generation.

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Re: Do you think evolution is blind? [Re: Veritas]
    #9350477 -

Your super powers are merely a fluke?


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Re: Do you think evolution is blind? [Re: Veritas]
    #9350478 -

So, colder weather, does not promote, thicking of the skin, more hair, and a more concetrated fatty content?? I think you are proclaiming something that you can't prove. Animals, adapt to there enviornmet. And when it changes, overtime, the either change to survive in the new enviorment, or perish.. Tried and proven.


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Nam-myoho-renge-kyo

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Re: Do you think evolution is blind? [Re: flip3084]
    #9350495 -

Are you talking about adaptation or mutation?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Do you think evolution is blind? [Re: flip3084]
    #9350504 -

Not proven whatsoever.  Evolution does not occur within the individual organism, but over generation after generation of organisms.  This is the difference between a guitar player developing calluses during his/her lifetime due to daily practice & a giraffe evolving to have a long neck due to the survival advantage this offered to generations of giraffes.

If the change is not heritable, then it has nothing to do with biological evolution.

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Re: Do you think evolution is blind? [Re: Veritas]
    #9350546 -

The original topic was evolution. The above state thickening of the skin, hair growth, and fatty content, is an example of evolution, neither random, nor pre-set, but merely a reaction. And enviornmental changes before human involvement were rarely random, and held much order. Therefore I am finding this topic quite paradoxal. Let's talk about an example of genetic mutations.. In England, there are a large number of people with longer noses. Started as a mutation stimulated by prolonged inbreeding of the royal families, but now hereditary..


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Nam-myoho-renge-kyo

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Re: Do you think evolution is blind? [Re: flip3084]
    #9350579 -

Let's make sure we're on the same page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution

Evolution is not about our genetic code altering itself in response to the environment.  In the example you've given, traits such as thicker skin, hair growth & tendency to store body fat are selected because of the survival advantage they offer to generations of humans.  These traits are the result of random genetic mutations, which are then passed on via sperm or egg to the next generation.

These traits are NOT the result of a particular individual's DNA altering itself on the spot in response to lowered temperatures.

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Re: Do you think evolution is blind? [Re: Veritas]
    #9350594 -

Veritas said:
Genetic mutations are not responsive to environmental changes (unless you're referring to mutagenic toxins.)  The environment determines which random mutations will win the evolution lottery & be passed on to the next generation.


this is the way mutations work, i.e. not stimulus response.

flip3084 said:
So, colder weather, does not promote, thicking of the skin, more hair, and a more concetrated fatty content?? I think you are proclaiming something that you can't prove. Animals, adapt to there enviornmet. And when it changes, overtime, the either change to survive in the new enviorment, or perish.. Tried and proven.


I think you are allowing the idea of stimulus response WRT adaptation to collide with what really happens WRT mutation.

evolution is the history of changes in life forms encorporating effects of reproductive genetics and both adaptation and mutation in the face of (not response to) natural selection.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Do you think evolution is blind? [Re: Veritas]
    #9350603 -

Modern science hates teleology. And yet science concedes there is order at the atomic level, order at the molecular level, order at the biological level, order at the organismal level... but when it comes to humans: we're supposedly "trendlessly fluctuating", magically outside the boundaries of everything else. [See Mckenna, Understanding in the Light of Nature].

As if the increasing complexity that is so obviously an inherent part of space and time is some random fluke. Evolution, if it is blind, is only blind in our limited interpretation. We don't know much, but is seems fairly straight-forward that nothing is random, which much to the dissatisfaction of intelligent designers still doesn't necessarily imply there is purpose, or even a benevolent controller. What was previously assumed to be "blind" and/or random in physics and quantum mechanics is now being mapped out in fractal geometry, algorithms, and curves. Hmmm, there is a pattern!

Quote:
Evolution does not occur within the individual organism, but over generation after generation of organisms.



Veritas, do you know where (or how) epigenetic material is stored? Beats me. I do think, however, that explicit change may take generations, but that doesn't reduce the importance or role of the individual. Experiences, memories, ideas, etc. that are seemingly far removed from chromosomes still have an equal impact on the environment through behavioral expression and sociobiology.

Edited by Arden (12/02/08 11:15 AM)

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Re: Do you think evolution is blind? [Re: flip3084]
    #9350629 -

In the origin of Hutus and Tutsis we find the same thing. Noses and paper. And how about tracing the word londine, thames/thamuz  and put it together with nose and VI. Somehow the nose is always an issue.


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Wave.
'And for this reason repentance (metanoia) is an elevating means. For he who feels impatience with the circunstances in which he finds himself, devises means of escape.
  Now the chief thing in purification is the will. For then both deeds and words lend a helping hand. But, when the will is absent, the whole purificatory discipline of initiation is...'

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Re: Do you think evolution is blind? [Re: Arden]
    #9350649 -

Epigenetics describes the manner in which genetic expression is regulated.  It has nothing to do with "Experiences, memories, ideas, etc."  What is your point?  :confused:

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