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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: UFOs and Scientific Research [Re: machineelf368]
    #1022761 - 11/05/02 12:52 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

In reply to:

well you're right, craniology isn't "real science," but IQ tests are, and they're real prejudiced



When you state that IQ tests are 'real prejudiced' do you mean culturally biased? As sports or music are prejudiced? Do you know that there are now IQ tests specifically designed to get around any cultural bias? IQ tests measure certain select facets of intelligence, not every kind of intelligence. Individual abilites span a broad spectrum of strengths and weaknesses. Do you know there are non-verbal IQ tests that check for such things spacial ability and mathematics? Did you know that orientals score higher than whites on IQ tests (even foreign born orientals)? How do you explain this, are the designers of the tests secretely biased towards orientals?

In reply to:

I'm thinking of G. Stanley Hall, one of the founding members of American Psychology, who had scientifically shown that higher education makes women infertile, and that women were less intelligent than men



Did he scientifically show or did he rationalize, omit certain information and select only those things which backed up his pre-conceived notions? Sloppy work is not an indictment of science but the person who is doing the work.

In reply to:

You also assume there is one "The Truth,"



What do you mean 'one "The Truth?"' This can have quite a few connotations. I am guessing that this is an implication that you deny there is any kind of objective reality external to yourself (not to confuse interpretation of external reality with actual reality). Are you operating under the assumption the the universe is all one big manifestation of your imagination? Are you familiar with the Great Swami's rock on the head reality test? But that's not the scope of this thread...

In reply to:

They've done studies where, for example, two groups of scientists test a group of rats in a maze. One group is told these rats were bred to do really well at mazes, the other group is told the opposite. The first group finds the rats to do really well at the maze, the second group finds the rats to do poorly. It's the same rats. And there' sno way the experimenters could have biased the rats by verbal or nonverbal cues. It's just that expectations determine the outcome so often. It's not always a matter of interpretation, either. These studies was just timing rats, nothing incredibly hard



Could you please just post the references to this study here (that way you won't have to answer multiple PMs)? I am quite curious as to when this study was done and what protocols were used, if the tests were video taped, was the timing done with a stop watch controlled by the experimenters, what kind of nosies were made by or actions performed by the experimenters during the test runs, time of day the tests were run, etc., etc... From your description, it appears that what these studies really illustrate is how not to do experiments or studies and the importance of using double blind methods.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: UFOs and Scientific Research [Re: Swami]
    #1022828 - 11/05/02 01:36 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

This is a typical Alex response.

Yes, I'm afraid it's a tendency of mine to demolish your arguments.

:grin: :grin:

When Einstein was theorising about the nature of the universe what "research" could he do about the speed of light?

Clearly you would have been saying "What research can you do? Stop thinking about these things Einstein". Progress is made by people who think diametrically opposite to you. 


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineMurex
Reality Hacker

Registered: 07/28/02
Posts: 3,599
Loc: Traped in a shell.
Last seen: 14 years, 1 month
Re: UFOs and Scientific Research [Re: Xlea321]
    #1022834 - 11/05/02 01:41 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

In reply to:

I don't think REAL aliens are ready to speak or show (for that matter) themselfs to humans yet, except maybe under the influence.




.....yeah.



--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: UFOs and Scientific Research [Re: Murex]
    #1022836 - 11/05/02 01:43 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Hang on murex, someone else said that.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineMurex
Reality Hacker

Registered: 07/28/02
Posts: 3,599
Loc: Traped in a shell.
Last seen: 14 years, 1 month
Re: UFOs and Scientific Research [Re: Xlea321]
    #1022840 - 11/05/02 01:45 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

It was a quote.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
Re: UFOs and Scientific Research [Re: Swami]
    #1023453 - 11/05/02 08:27 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Same sort of tricks are used by both sides - You made the sweeping generalisatin that no non-native material has ever been found.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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Offlinemachineelf368
self-transforming

Registered: 09/05/02
Posts: 119
Loc: in the mountains, awaitin...
Last seen: 16 years, 9 months
Re: UFOs and Scientific Research [Re: Evolving]
    #1023725 - 11/05/02 11:38 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

With the IQ test stuff, I was just saying that when they first came out they were supposed to be scientifically accurate, objective measures of a person's intelligence. The SATs were the same way, they're supposed to be this objective measure of how well you'll do in college, but there are all sorts of prejudices built in to the SAT tests about geographic location and ethnic background and such. Anyway, yes they've improved the IQ tests quite a bit since the 40s when they used those tests to turn away Jewish refugees fleeing Nazi Germany because they 'weren't smart enough.' My point is that at the time those tests were considered objectively scientific. Now we know better. We also know that there are multiple facets of intelligence, as you mentioned. We learn all the time, and the science of one era is expanded upon or downright refuted by the next era. Like Newton, Einstein, and quantum theory. So if scientists today are scientifically discrediting any and all evidence for extraterrestial craft and/or life entering our atmosphere, I just wonder if it's really scientific or not.

People tend to be much more skeptical about a study showing evidence for something 'weird' like depressive realism, telepathy or alien contact than for something not 'weird' that fits snugly into our preconceived notions of how reality works. It took thirty years for physics to admit that reality is nonlocal, for example. Nonlocality is really really weird, and it challenges all our preconceived notions about the structure of reality, so people were really reluctant to admit it nonlocality was more than 'pseudoscience.' maybe something similar with UFO research? maybe not, I don't know.

In reply to:

Did he scientifically show or did he rationalize, omit certain information and select only those things which backed up his pre-conceived notions? Sloppy work is not an indictment of science but the person who is doing the work.



That's an excellent point, and I think that exact question needs to be asked far more than it is today. Are the scientists researching UFOs guilty of sloppy work, or are the scientists debunking UFOs omitting certain information? the original question was "So what EXACTLY do UFO buffs expect from mainstream science?" and I think the answer is that they want the same skeptical treatment you have shown to be applied to the 'anti-UFO' as well as to the 'pro-UFO' research and researchers.

As for the experiments with the rats:
Rosenthal, R., & Fode, K. L. (1963). The effects of experimenter bias on the performance of the albino rat. Behavioral Science, 8(3), 183-189.
Rosenthal, R., & Lawson, R. (1963). A longitudinal study of the effects of experimenter bias on the operant learning of laboratory rats. Journal of Psychiatric Research, 2(2), 61-72.
-m


--------------------
(the above was deciphered from phi (~1.62) using an advanced alphanumeric conversion algorhythm and should not be perceived as meaningful.)


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Offlinenubious
1up on the rest

Registered: 10/20/02
Posts: 534
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
Re: UFOs and Scientific Research [Re: machineelf368]
    #1024221 - 11/05/02 02:12 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I don't think REAL aliens are ready to speak or show (for that matter) themselfs to humans yet, except maybe under the influence.

I think it's the other way around. I don't think HUMANS are ready for Aliens to make contact, and I think the Aliens know this.

If aliens contacted humans, (which I think has already happened anyways), We would be so caught up in this idea of life on other planets that we'd want to know so much about them and their technology, we'd start losing track of our own lives. It's like giving a computer to a south-african villager, who hasn't seen something of the sort EVER. They'd be so caught up with the neat things it can do, they'd stop doing the things required for their society to function as a whole. Everything has it's ecosystem, the human economy included. When we tone the war, violence, and get shit organized, THEN maybe they'll make an appearance, but why now? What would they gain?





--------------------
No one knows the worth of innocence till he knows it is gone forever, and that money can't buy it back. Not the saint, but the sinner that repenteth, is he to whom the full length and breadth, and height and depth, of life's meaning is revealed. Good and evil loose all objective meaning and are seen as equally necessary and contrasting elements in the masterpiece that is the universe.


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
Re: UFOs and Scientific Research [Re: Swami]
    #1027011 - 11/06/02 05:36 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

(Before I start - I don't know whether aliens/ufos exist.)

Swami, this question is loaded, you are basically using it as a platform to air your views.
In the question, you also state an opinion which you fail to substantiate:

"I frequently hear of UFO buffs whining about the lack of "serious" scientific research into the subject." (Sounds like a convenient way of setting up your question to me)

Then you ask:

"So what EXACTLY do UFO buffs expect from mainstream science?"

Who is actually doing this expecting? Are you implying all non scientific researchers into UFO's feel this way? Perhaps there is a large number who don't really care about the scientific establishment, at this time.

Basically, you are using this question to single out a very defined group of people i.e - Ufo researchers who want science to take them seriously, who arent willing to do a degree themselves, and, judging by what you say in later posts, do sloppy science and will believe anything. Thats ok if you state it in those terms to begin with but it seems to me that you are saying this describes the whole group of ufo
researchers not just this narrowly defined group.

Later you mention "Physical "evidence" has been examined and not shown to be non-native to this planet."

Without explicitly saying so, you are implying this applies to all physical evidence that has ever been examined. Perhaps there were conflicts of opinion in some of these cases? perhaps you dont know the entire canon of ufo research inside and out? (Im not saying I do)

"As I have stated many, many times - even UFO believers cannot show any link from a mysterious light in the sky to civilizations from another world. PERIOD."

What am I to infer from this? Well, they definitely havent shown you a link have they? :grin: Does this mean  one does not/will not exist PERIOD?

I thought Alex's post made a very good point that science has always been about theorising beyond currently available data, and was also relevant to the question you had posed.
Your reply was basically a case of if you cant effectively dismiss the argument, Dismiss the author, dismiss the  style. Obviously, in the absence of an opportunity to do "research" perhaps the UFO people want the science community to theorise beyond the available data, until such time as more data is available. Is this not an answer to your original question?

I think everyone has a gut feeling about the Ufo alien question. Whats your gut feeling swami?

 


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: UFOs and Scientific Research [Re: GazzBut]
    #1027024 - 11/06/02 05:43 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

No, the arguments are not the same and a factual statement is not a generalization. Please submit a lab report, article or weblink from a reputable university or scientific journal detailing such a non-native material.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Edited by Swami (11/06/02 06:03 AM)


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InvisibleShroomismM
Space Travellin
Male User Gallery
Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/13/00
Posts: 66,006
Loc: 9th Dimension
Re: UFOs and Scientific Research [Re: Swami]
    #1027042 - 11/06/02 05:52 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)



--------------------


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InvisibleShroomismM
Space Travellin
Male User Gallery
Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/13/00
Posts: 66,006
Loc: 9th Dimension
Re: UFOs and Scientific Research [Re: Shroomism]
    #1027070 - 11/06/02 06:05 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)



--------------------


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
Re: UFOs and Scientific Research [Re: Swami]
    #1027073 - 11/06/02 06:06 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I'm not attempting to prove or disprove it. I'm just not making sweeping generalisations one way or the other.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: UFOs and Scientific Research [Re: Shroomism]
    #1027078 - 11/06/02 06:09 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

"Conclusion:

Reports of unusual metallic residue following the observation of an unexplained aerial phenomenon are detailed enough for a comparative study to be undertaken. This research is hampered, however, by several problems of methodology where lack of money or analytical resources is only a secondary obstacle. The primary concerns have to do with inaccuracies in data gathering, lack of information about exact dates and times, lack of detailed, critical field investigation, and failure to provide an irrefutable chain of evidence in the collection, transportation and examination of the samples. "

That is supposed to be convincing?



--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
Re: UFOs and Scientific Research [Re: Swami]
    #1027085 - 11/06/02 06:18 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

What is your gut feeling on the Ufo / alien question?


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: UFOs and Scientific Research [Re: GazzBut]
    #1027090 - 11/06/02 06:21 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

You are asking a rationalist about a gut feeling?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineMurex
Reality Hacker

Registered: 07/28/02
Posts: 3,599
Loc: Traped in a shell.
Last seen: 14 years, 1 month
Re: UFOs and Scientific Research [Re: Swami]
    #1027095 - 11/06/02 06:26 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I don't think he knew you were a rationalist. Go easy on him, man. It's not cool to shove someone verbally like that in order for you to look big.



--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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InvisibleShroomismM
Space Travellin
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Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/13/00
Posts: 66,006
Loc: 9th Dimension
Re: UFOs and Scientific Research [Re: Swami]
    #1027104 - 11/06/02 06:35 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Here's an interesting law

: XTRA-TERRESTRIAL EXPOSURE LAW
[...]
: On October 5, 1982, Dr. Brain [Brian?] T. Clifford of the Pentagon
: announced at a press conference ("The Star", New York, Oct. 5, 1982)
: that contact between U.S. citizens and extra-terrestrials or their
: vehicles is strictly illegal.
:
: According to a law already on the books:
:
: (Title 14, Section 1211 of the Code of Federal Regulations, adopted
: on July 16, 1969, before the Apollo moon shots), anyone guilty of
: such contact automatically becomes a wanted criminal to be jailed
: for one year and fined $5,000. The NASA administrator is empowered
: to determine with or without a hearing that a person or object has
: been "extraterrestrially exposed" and impose an indeterminate
: quarantine under armed guard, which could not be broken even by
: court order.

This one may tickle your fancy

http://www.temporaldoorway.com/ufo/physicalevidence/ubtatubamagnesium/index.htm


--------------------


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
Re: UFOs and Scientific Research [Re: Swami]
    #1027106 - 11/06/02 06:37 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I myself am a human fiirst. Later i may attach labels like rationalist to myself. But i never forget they are convenient fictions, and dont get caught up in sense of importance generated by a mere word. We all have gut reactions Swami, as you well know.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
Re: UFOs and Scientific Research [Re: Murex]
    #1027108 - 11/06/02 06:38 AM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Thanks for your concern Murex!  :grin: 


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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