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Re: Suicide [Re: Sclorch]
    #816155 -

Yes, Where the Red Fern Grows is an excellent book.

Oh, and to answer your question:

Yes.


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Namaste.

Edited by RebelSteve33 (08/13/02 07:55 PM)

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Re: Suicide [Re: Xlea321]
    #816198 -

The difference is that as far as we know humans are the only animals who know they are going to die anyway.

In the movie "The Silence of the Lambs" Foster speaks of her childhood where the lambs appeared to know they were going to be slaughtered. Sure it was only a movie, but I bet someone here has some farm experience and could comment.

Now it could be "just" a fear response, but we can have no way of knowing what they are thinking or feeling.



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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Suicide [Re: BrainNirvana]
    #816205 -

This is what I mean without the technology of hospital this would not be able to happen.

The A.M.A. has popularized the idea that modern medicine has increased life expectancy. The fact is that almost all of the increase is due to flush toilets, running water and sanitation.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Suicide [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #816209 -

It seems to me that since the natural instinct of any animal is to survive, and so many people seem not to have this instinct any longer, that perhaps getting away from all things natural is the problem.

Our heads are little survival machines. But to survive we have to be able to consider alternatives, right do I climb the tree for the coconut or do I hang around on the ground to pick up bananas. Run a simulation and find out. We're so wired up for simulating alternatives and being creative at some point the brain has to consider something that would lead to self-destruction. I don't think it represents an un-natural tendency. Creativity is uniquely human though, and some might say humanity is separate from nature.

Have you ever known an unselfish person that has talked about/attempted/gone through with suicide?

In some societies where resources aren't plentiful the elders would wander off into the snow after they could no longer contribute to food gathering and whatnot. Thats unselfish and an act of suicide.


I'm not sure what the real question for this thread is. But my approach to someone contemplating suicide, I guess I'd call it tough love. Usually they're just looking for help or attention, and if you give it to them for that you only encourage more suicidal thoughts because at some point the person is will need help again. It helps to talk to the person to help them sort out their source problems, but its not helpful to help them play out the whatifs of suicide.

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Re: Suicide [Re: Swami]
    #816312 -

Excellent movie reference, Swamster

BTW, some of you have posted comments in this thread, but not necessarily on my theory. I'd really like to hear what all of your thoughts on it are.


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Namaste.

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Re: Suicide [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #816324 -

Lemmings commit mass suicide when their population grows too large.


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I remember, the first time, I... smoked DMT.

Edited by vkk_ (08/13/02 09:21 PM)

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Re: Suicide [Re: vkk_]
    #816332 -

That is intentional suicide for the survival of the species, though. Their instinct for survival is still a factor even though they are killing themselves.

I don't think humans care one bit about the survival of their species when they off themselves.


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Namaste.

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Re: Suicide [Re: vkk_]
    #816443 -

Claim: During the filming of the 1958 Disney nature documentary White Wilderness, the film crew induced lemmings into jumping off a cliff and into the sea in order to document their supposedly suicidal behavior.
Status: True.
Origins: Lemming suicide is fiction. Contrary to popular belief, lemmings do not periodically hurl themselves off of cliffs and into the sea. Cyclical explosions in population do occasionally induce lemmings to attempt to migrate to areas of lesser population density. When such a migration occurs, some lemmings die by falling over cliffs or drowning in lakes or rivers. These deaths are not deliberate "suicide" attempts, however, but accidental deaths resulting from the lemmings' venturing into unfamiliar territories and being crowded and pushed over dangerous ledges. In fact, when the competition for food, space, or mates becomes too intense, lemmings are much more likely to kill each other than to kill themselves.



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Re: Suicide [Re: BrainNirvana]
    #816480 -

That's pretty damn funny...I'm gonna have to remember that


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"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go..." T.S. Eliot

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Re: Suicide [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #816537 -

Let's assume for a second that human beings as a whole have somehow lost their innate natural instincts for survival by seperating ourselves from nature...if that's the case, then perhaps some of our other instincts are slowly whithering away as well. For example: how often do people have to defend themselves in life threating situations these days? If we look at the whole of the human population then certainly this is a daily occurance, but if we only focus on one individual's life I would assume that number would drop drastically. It seems to me that most people these days are fairly sheltered from large predatory animals, or other such situations...and as such, as a whole the human population is no longer in need of any sort of natural instinct to protect ourselves from such dangers. But does that mean that the instinct no longer exists? It seems to me that human beings in general still have a sort of protectionistic quality to them. Only now instead of being weary of predators and what have you, we are weary of purse snatchers and people with guns. So going back to the whole suicide thing - I don't personally think that that particular aspect of our survival intuition is depleting, only that it is adapting to our ever-changing world...which of course, very well could mean that an increase of suicide rates is directly correlated to our detatchment from our earth mother. But I don't necessarily look at that as a bad thing. I'm all for saving the planet, but I'm also very excited about the cumulation of human evolution. I personally think that if our insticts and thought processes and behavioral patterns are evolving, then surely we must be evolving with them...even if that evolution isn't apparent in the physical form. To be honest with you, I would love to see the human race get it's shit together and start working together on a way of becomming fully self-sufficent. I would love to see the lot of us some day break free from the natural womb of our planet, and move on to bigger and better things. And I would love to see us clean up our mess on the way out so that the whole process could start over again. But to do any of that we have to first learn how to live without nature. So for me, I see this adaptation of our instincts to our surroundings as just another step in human evolution. I can only hope that we some day learn how to master these instincts so that we don't all wind up like those suicidal people who can't handle their mundane existance. ..... Allthough, I suppose there's still that part of me that thinks either outcome is acceptable. But hey, a guy can't be pessimistic all the time, right?


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"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go..." T.S. Eliot

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Re: Suicide [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #816784 -

The idea that only people are aware that they are going to die one day is in the book "The god part of the brain" where he postulates that nature evolved a spiritual part of the human brain to cope with the paralysing realisation that they were going to die. Otherwise they would have been unable to carry on living.

Certainly other animals may have an understanding of death too.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

Edited by Alex123 (08/14/02 05:25 AM)

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Re: Suicide [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #816835 -

Another powerful motivation we have is to avoid pain at all costs. All it takes for someone to kill themselves is to decide, in any particular instance, that it is necessary or favourable to end that pain (physical pain, depression, self-hatred, unrequited love, whatever). If you're really in an awful place, there is nothing you want more than to end that pain. Death can be seen as a tremendous relief (probably is too), and this is certainly enough to motivate someone to do it. I have heard that humans are the only creatures that are aware that they are going to die. Not sure if that's true, but if it is, that might explain the apparent distinction between the suicide philosophies of homo sapiens vs other organisms.


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Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

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Re: Suicide [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #816850 -

Some scientists believe whales and dolphins really are as smart, if not smarter, than humans, but nobody knows why they sometimes choose to kill themselves. It has been postulated that a form of sonar used by Navy vessels is the cause of many intentional beachings.

I often wonder about what an animal's day-to-day life is like. They probably get depressed and have their 'off' days, too. Some would have mental illnesses, certainly some are just assholes.

I suspect sonar regularly drives whales batty. Cetaceans are sensitive to underwater sound frequencies, and powerful UHF or ULF transmission through the water would be fucking hellish nightmare. I'd kill myself too.


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Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

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Re: Suicide [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #816857 -

Look at it this way.

When mice/rats/ants whatever outgrow a habitat they start to do crazy things like killing each other, eating each other and the such. Lemmings go jump off a cliff.

I think that this truely has something to do with it. Overpopulation is cause for death as it restricts the quality of life for the whole.

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Re: Suicide [Re: BrainNirvana]
    #816863 -

This may be a little off the subject but a friend just asked me why don't we evolve like animals do. Now not really knowing the speed which most animals start to grow wings or gills or what not. But I think that the reason for this is because technology does it for us. Faster travel, communication, etc.... With out technology would we as humans be more advanced.

We do evolve like animals do. We are right now. It is just a very very slow process. Technology has complicated things a fair bit, but high technology has only been around for a spit in the ocean of time. It hasn't had enough time to really screw with evolution yet. Wait till they start cloning humans.



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Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

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Re: Suicide [Re: Sclorch]
    #816871 -

Bill Maher prides himself on being pro-death. There are just too many people.


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Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

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Re: Suicide [Re: vkk_]
    #816874 -

Lemmings commit mass suicide when their population grows too large.

No they don't. It's a myth that I suspect was spread to sell video games.


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Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:

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Re: Suicide [Re: Anonymous]
    #817256 -

I think you're right... Overpopulation probably plays a really big part.

I think nature has ways of protecting itself that we don't really understand. Previously I only thought natural disasters and diseases were its methods of protection from human overpopulation, but perhaps things like depression and suicide are employed for this purpose as well.

I've noticed that a lot of people on these boards, like me, find peace and happiness in nature. Because of this, they hold a deep respect for it. Perhaps nature rewards people who respect it. Maybe it's trying to kill of the ones who don't respect it and keep alive those that do, so that humans will continually evolve to care about nature more and more. Thus, nature will be kept alive itself.

Okay that is just a crazy theory that I came up with right now after just waking up. Forgive me.



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Namaste.

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Re: Suicide [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #817393 -

I don't think that's crazy talk at all. Anyone that believes in the whole Gian theory would likely agree with you too. I mean, it only makes sense - we live in symbiosis with the planet, so surely it would remove the bad apples if it had to...much in the same manner as our bodies fight off disease. That's pretty much how nature works.


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"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go..." T.S. Eliot

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Re: Suicide [Re: Mystical_Craven]
    #817421 -

The trouble is the people killing themselves are often the most sensitive, caring types which is leaving even more assholes to spawn.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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