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InvisibleSwami
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Instinct
    #3259999 - 10/21/04 12:24 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I have never heard a good explanation for how this survival information gets encoded. According to modern evolutionary theory, information learned in one's life CANNOT be passed on genetically. Ideas?


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisiblequestion_for_joo
i'm left. youall can bite me
Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 1,591
Re: Instinct [Re: Swami]
    #3260093 - 10/21/04 12:49 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

If something contradicts God's truth about a subject as revealed through His word as does the subject of reincarnation, then it should be discarded, regardless of whether or not it resonates with us intellectually or emotionally. This particular concept of yours is a mixture of Eastern philosophy with Christian precepts that cannot be scripturally supported.


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youi was a pig informatnt so you can go fuckyoruselfs


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Instinct [Re: Swami]
    #3260112 - 10/21/04 12:54 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

yes, this is not inherited learning in the sense of acquired facts being passed on from one generation to the next but the remains of the very earliest attract and scram wiring.

when any cerebral processing unit (us included) adds to the current context (by association) the arizing mask or reaction filter does not completely clear other persistent masks but appends, that way we can hold more than one conversation with more than one person at a time (like at work); or we can drive while talking. None of the learned masks (reaction filters) will be inherited.

Some simple but persistent masks do comprise biological attitude - not learned but aquired through heredity -> instinct.

The Bee, for example, has a persitent visual reaction filter for flower coloration and shape, and one that is dependent and related to scent of nectar, both are depressed by satiety.

Man has arousal filters for Woman's image and scent etc.

These filters attach to the simplest routines
either fight or flight until safe, or approach until sated.

Some complex instinct related to navigation in birds evolved over millions of years, and it is staged "approach" type instinct.

Some researchers have tried to find a DNA or RNA memory link but this is mostly debunked by now in favor of behaviour facilitation compounds - including Scotophobin (for increased propensity to learn fear of dark) and adrenaline to support blanket fight or flight. ALL else is in the category of learning and association which uses the brain as a sensation/memory processor architecturally electrically and biologically.

The instinct component will relate to a few architetural formations in the brain supporting a few basic facilitations, more of these in birds obviously.

like structural archetypes that are electrical field guides.


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InvisibleGoldenShroom
shhhh ....don'ttell anyone!

Registered: 03/13/03
Posts: 91
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Re: Instinct [Re: Swami]
    #3260124 - 10/21/04 12:58 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Maybe the offspring get some genetic codes which predetermine how their brain connections will form. This could cause them to have certain "thought patterns" that trigger survival mechanisms. Good question!


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-The killer in me is the killer in you... so I send this smile over to you


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Instinct [Re: GoldenShroom]
    #3260188 - 10/21/04 01:17 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

at some point, we were the survival information?


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Disclaimer!?


Edited by Gomp (10/21/04 01:18 PM)


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InvisibleGoldenShroom
shhhh ....don'ttell anyone!

Registered: 03/13/03
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Re: Instinct [Re: Gomp]
    #3260236 - 10/21/04 01:35 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I can't give a true answer to that as i have no idea when "I" or "we" started to exist. But if you believe in science and history, yes, at some point we were just strings of information. And even before that "we" were part of a ball of particles and energy. I'm not saying that is all we were, as there could definitely be other "life forces" that we are composed of.


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-The killer in me is the killer in you... so I send this smile over to you


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Instinct [Re: GoldenShroom]
    #3260269 - 10/21/04 01:45 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

it's only about approach or runaway;
the whole brain thing came into being in the aftermath of ganglia that did the processing for this in worms...
we inherit the legacy from our parents but it was passed on from long long before and never was "learned" it was mutated and either survived or it is no longer an aspect of instinct


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InvisibleZero7a1
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Re: Instinct [Re: Swami]
    #3260447 - 10/21/04 02:39 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Im sure that given the ability of species to adapt, that the DNA would have encoding.. for encoding... that it understands what it needs to do...

I like to think of it this way... dna made YOU, it gave you the essentials to be and think how you are. Wouldnt it itself already be adapting knowing how to transform instinct to fit you with your life? Addictions can be passed on... diseases can be passed on...

Have you thought about how maybe your intellect may be the result of rather primitive forms of insinctual thought from interfering with other higher order thinking skills? Maybe your a lucky one...

A lot of my family has bad tempers, and are very emotionaly unstable... could it be my instinct... can i rise above? or am i slave to my DNA?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Instinct [Re: Zero7a1]
    #3260627 - 10/21/04 04:16 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

re family, you have a crucible of behaviour formation and imprinting, nothing to do with DNA,
BUT
you do have body posture that is partly inherited features which can contribute to various aspects of personality and play into behavioural traits.

saying DNA formed us is like saying Money built the city,
not quite right but not wrong from the bank's point of view, money was used by people who built the city, and DNA was used by life that evolved.

Did life have a plan then
Not more than the first founders of our city did.
( they hardly envisaged cars, roads, hospitals, schools, cops, firedepartments, shopping centers - office towers...)


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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: Instinct [Re: Swami]
    #3260634 - 10/21/04 04:19 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I have never heard a good explanation for how this survival information gets encoded. According to modern evolutionary theory, information learned in one's life CANNOT be passed on genetically. Ideas?



I thought we didn't have any instincts acquired during our lifetimes :confused:


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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Instinct [Re: Swami]
    #3260876 - 10/21/04 05:28 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

"Information" cannot be directly passed down...but small-scale structural differences in the CNS certainly can (and are). I expect that Instinct for any given situation comes from a small grouping of neurons that is more effective at pattern-matching the given situation. If such a small-scale mutation occurred and produced an "instinctive response" to certain environmental pressures, then those animals with the mutation would be much more likely to survive specific pressures.


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You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Instinct [Re: trendal]
    #3261495 - 10/21/04 07:47 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

"If something contradicts God's truth about a subject as revealed through His word , then it should be discarded"

what an absurd belief. Which God do you choose, and which source do you choose as holding 'his word'? how can you choose such things arbitrarily? and yet by your own logic (or lack thereof) you have no choice BUT to choose arbitrarily, as you are preaching denial of intellect and emotion as guidelines.

How do you reconcile the fact that so called 'gods word' (supposing you mean the bible) is written not by God but by a series of men? how do you reconcile the fact that literally hundreds of blatant contradictions exist between and even within the works of those individual men? how do you justify the fact that some of 'gods word' preaches hate, sexism, racism, acceptable slavery, murder and outright logical nonsense (such as saying clothes made of mixed materials are immoral)

How do you come to terms with the fact that literally thousands of 'gods' exist, each with their own contradictory words?

doesnt it bother you that the only thing that has led you to believe in this particular god and his particular word (created and written by humans) is basically the place you were born and the beliefs of your parents?

sorry went off topic


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Everything I post is fiction. This poster is no longer active.


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Offlinedeff
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Re: Instinct [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3261526 - 10/21/04 07:54 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Well our original encoded 'instinct' must be found in our DNA, the same DNA present in the very first cell formed supporting our life at the time of contaception.

Of course what many would considered instincts are actually adopted through environmental factors, and not really instincts at all.

So if instincts, in the true sense, are derived from encoded DNA, then the question would be if experience alters one's DNA, and thus can be passed down the generations.

I would say conscious experiences (what we would probably be talking about in this sense) don't, but environmental experiences such as mutations do, which could alter instinct slowly through the process of observed evolution.

But I dunno. :smile:


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OfflineTodcasil
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Re: Instinct [Re: deff]
    #3261829 - 10/21/04 08:57 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

rock on moonshoe.


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Men look at themselves and they see flawed humans, we look at women and we see perfect
GODDESSES
Women look at themselves and they seem utterly human, when looking at men they see proud
GODS.


~Casil



:cactus:


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: Instinct [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3264249 - 10/22/04 12:35 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Here here, man.

Gotta give you props for bothering to materializing the brief thought I had when I read that post before I simply said "Oh, what's the point" and moved on.


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InvisibleAntiMeme
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Registered: 08/11/04
Posts: 208
Re: Instinct [Re: Swami]
    #3264285 - 10/22/04 12:47 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

'Instinct' is a catch all phrase to explain away anything. At least that's how it used by laymen. There's probably a scientific definition which has some merit.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Instinct [Re: deff]
    #3264320 - 10/22/04 01:01 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

deff said:
Well our original encoded 'instinct' must be found in our DNA, the same DNA present in the very first cell formed supporting our life at the time of contaception.
....





not sure why you say that particularly.

except where encoded means structural and patterned aspects of brain. specific behaviour for instinct is just approach and avoid.

the development of the body is encoded in DNA, and some visual auditory olfactory and tactile sensations patterns are encoded to be pleasurable - a few others are frightful patterns.

the dna effect for instinct goes not much farther than that,
and
you don't change dna except by mutation
so
you don't pass learning or pleasure detection refinements onto your children.

but this approach and avoid instinctual thing crops up a s a big difficulty for peole with halucinogens or OCD.
instictually one tries to avoid the scary thing.

if the thing is a mental construct, however, like an hallucination or a compulsive complex, then approach and avoid have to be dropped.
both become association, which is essentially approach.

Like alice in wonderland, walking away from the red queen brings her closer.


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Offlinedeff
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Re: Instinct [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3264905 - 10/22/04 03:52 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I mean instincts as in the traits that would be present if a newborn had absolutely no contact with a culture or anyone for that matter. The very bare essential encoded plans for brain development and function, and therefor certain traits. I don't know exactly what falls into this category, but you said certain visual patterns linked to pleasure and whatnot, so if this is the case, and this is all that is actually encoded, then that is all I am referring to by 'instincts'.

I don't mean behaviour in the conscious sense at all, as that's certainly adopted.

So yeah, 'mutation' is a word describing changes in DNA, so yeah - only 'mutations' change DNA :wink: I realize I fucked up by saying 'such as' mutations, when it should have been mutations exclusively.

You're right though, that experience (conscious) and learning isn't passed down, but I think maybe certain evironmental factors account for increases in learning potential encoded in the dna, but this is just speculation.

I dunno much at all about this, but I'm not sure if modern science really does either :/


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Instinct [Re: trendal]
    #3265156 - 10/22/04 06:42 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

"Information" cannot be directly passed down...but small-scale structural differences in the CNS certainly can (and are). I expect that Instinct for any given situation comes from a small grouping of neurons that is more effective at pattern-matching the given situation. If such a small-scale mutation occurred and produced an "instinctive response" to certain environmental pressures, then those animals with the mutation would be much more likely to survive specific pressures.

So 99.99% of the early antelopes thought lions were cute or at least harmless, wandered over or failed to run, and got eaten. And 0.01% had a grouping of neurons that caused the pattern called "lion" to be somewhat repugnant and stayed away? (or something like that :crazy:)


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Instinct [Re: Swami]
    #3265219 - 10/22/04 06:59 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

How come no one has thrown intuition into this convo yet as an override to even need instinct and it being not only a preventitive guide from danger, but a guide towards ideals?

Sometimes, I think instinct was programmed in to help keep us alive while we cut ourselves off from intuition for a time.

Just some thoughts from left field, or maybe even, the female perspective.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


Edited by gettinjiggywithit (10/22/04 07:00 PM)


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