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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Where do instincts come from?
    #9624103 -

We all naturally know how to flee, fight, fuck, etc.. where does this knowledge come from? And how did that knowledge get there in the first place?

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Re: Where do instincts come from? [Re: Diaboleros]
    #9624376 -

Jesus :etjesus:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Where do instincts come from? [Re: Diaboleros]
    #9624981 -

Everything happens infront of our awareness, it sees everything including the subtlest instinct or tendency, the tendencies are like a continous stream of thought that pull our attention outward away from its source.

If you don't allow your attention to be pulled out & don't follow a tendency, you can see where it has come from, how it got there, what it means etc... but first you have to not follow it, as if you follow it then your absorbed into it & you can never truly understand something for what it truly is unless you stand back observe it neutrally.

Like you don't know your dreaming until you wake up, during the dream the attention is so absorbed into it & we don't question it, but when you wake up you can look & see what triggered the dream, latent memories, past tendencies, desires, fears etc...

:peace:


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Re: Where do instincts come from? [Re: Diaboleros]
    #9625153 -

DNA.  :dna: Personality studies conducted on identical twins, separated at birth, suggest that personality is almost entirely controlled by genetics. DNA also controls your instincts and your subconscious.


--------------------
Turn off your mind, relax and floatdown stream. It is not dying. Lay down all thought, surrender to the void. It is shining.
:darkside: Pink Floyd :darkside:

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Re: Where do instincts come from? [Re: NlightNd1]
    #9625214 -

Do you have any link to this study you're talking about?


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Where do instincts come from? [Re: Diaboleros]
    #9625244 -

Diaboleros said:
We all naturally know how to flee, fight, fuck, etc.. where does this knowledge come from? And how did that knowledge get there in the first place?


this is not knowledge.
and before we do any of these required natural responses
we need to learn to walk - then run - which are all found in play.
Play is a mind thing. anything can be tried together, repeating good combos and then more.

play and what we find in play is the basis of our inner encyclopedias.

what is found from play is not innate or instinctual at all.

(someone needs to watch kittens more often http://video.google.ca/videosearch?hl=en&q=cute%20kittens%20playing&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wv# )


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Where do instincts come from? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9625295 -

redgreenvines said:
what is found from play is not innate or instinctual at all.





so no being has the natural instinct to have fun & play? :shrug:

watching young lion cubs & my sisters children i beg to differ...

when my sisters kids play they forget they are hungry, tired, sad about some bad news like  dead pet etc...so to play seems pretty instinctual to me as it can overide instincts like hunger & tiredness

we are taught to work & take life seriously later on
naturally & instinctually we are playful, that's how i see it


:peace:


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Re: Where do instincts come from? [Re: Chronic7]
    #9625381 -

Chronic777 said:
redgreenvines said:
what is found from play is not innate or instinctual at all.





so no being has the natural instinct to have fun & play? :shrug:

watching young lion cubs & my sisters children i beg to differ...

when my sisters kids play they forget they are hungry, tired, sad about some bad news like  dead pet etc...so to play seems pretty instinctual to me as it can overide instincts like hunger & tiredness

we are taught to work & take life seriously later on
naturally & instinctually we are playful, that's how i see it


:peace:


i did not say "play" is not instinctual - (i said it is a mind thing, part of consciousness unfolding)
i distinctly said that all the things learned from play are not from instinct
i can easily see how you err'd.

anyway I am not laying down the law on this issue,
just trying to leave breadcrumbs for a natural (playful) discovery process


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Where do instincts come from? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9625529 -

redgreenvines said:
what is found from play is not innate or instinctual at all.



So your claim is, instincts do not exist, and that we just learn everything by "playing"? So we just learn to breath by playing?  If we would have to learn how to control all the systems and the organs in the body by "playing" we would be dead before we would get the hang of it.. right?

NlightNd1 said:
DNA.  :dna: Personality studies conducted on identical twins, separated at birth, suggest that personality is almost entirely controlled by genetics. DNA also controls your instincts and your subconscious.


How about the second part of my question. How do they get into the DNA?

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Re: Where do instincts come from? [Re: Diaboleros]
    #9625590 -

Diaboleros said:
We all naturally know how to flee, fight, fuck, etc.. where does this knowledge come from? And how did that knowledge get there in the first place?


I think this is one of the most significant questions that mankind can ask.. way more important than 'how big is the universe' or 'what is the purpose of my life?' or even 'is there life on other planets?'


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Re: Where do instincts come from? [Re: Noteworthy]
    #9625602 -

Why do you think that?


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Where do instincts come from? [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #9625658 -

Because I think, of all the amazing things in life, there are some that are so many levels more complex than others.. with relation to dna.. and for an animal to have an instinct or dna memory, in my opinion, requires a more complex code than any other structure because, firstly, the brain is touted as the most complex organ. secondly, instincts are a whole series of states IN this most complex organ.
but this does not just include human instincts, but also bees or ants, all insects, arachnids, birds, fish, err.. etc.
given that these are the most complex and therefor the least likely, I think that in order to support evolution one must consider the answer to this question to be the ultimate sealant in affirming the belief - to understand how the most complex genetically programmed space-time interactions of life on earth developed


--------------------

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Re: Where do instincts come from? [Re: NlightNd1]
    #9625866 -

NlightNd1 said:
DNA.  :dna: Personality studies conducted on identical twins, separated at birth, suggest that personality is almost entirely controlled by genetics. DNA also controls your instincts and your subconscious.


I disagree.

Psychologists are in heated debate over how much genetics are actually involved in the expression of personality. It is generally agreed that it is 50% nature, and 50% nurture; we do not really know for sure. Hard scientists and behaviorists generally have a strong proclivity for reducing everything to heredity and heritable traits, while social cognitive and sociocultural theorists, tend to attribute certain traits as an interplay of both social interactions and early childhood development.


--------------------
No trees were harmed in the writing of this signature; however, millions of electrons were mildly inconvenienced.

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Re: Where do instincts come from? [Re: Noteworthy]
    #9625956 -

Noteworthy said:
Diaboleros said:
We all naturally know how to flee, fight, fuck, etc.. where does this knowledge come from? And how did that knowledge get there in the first place?


I think this is one of the most significant questions that mankind can ask.. way more important than 'how big is the universe' or 'what is the purpose of my life?' or even 'is there life on other planets?'


Far more important is the question of how we can overcome these instincts.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Where do instincts come from? [Re: AnxietyDrive]
    #9625983 -

AnxietyDrive said:
Psychologists are in heated debate over how much genetics are actually involved in the expression of personality. It is generally agreed that it is 50% nature, and 50% nurture; we do not really know for sure. Hard scientists and behaviorists generally have a strong proclivity for reducing everything to heredity and heritable traits, while social cognitive and sociocultural theorists, tend to attribute certain traits as an interplay of both social interactions and early childhood development.


Actually, it's not as simple as that.  We now know that strands of DNA can be either active or dormant, and can be turned on or off by environmental influences.  Thus, one's biology can actually be determined by their environment.  So nature and nurture interact in ways that are too complex to simply attribute a certain percentage to one or the other.


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Re: Where do instincts come from? [Re: Silversoul]
    #9625995 -

A reason why we'll never know with certitude.


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Re: Where do instincts come from? [Re: Silversoul]
    #9626039 -

Silversoul said:
AnxietyDrive said:
Psychologists are in heated debate over how much genetics are actually involved in the expression of personality. It is generally agreed that it is 50% nature, and 50% nurture; we do not really know for sure. Hard scientists and behaviorists generally have a strong proclivity for reducing everything to heredity and heritable traits, while social cognitive and sociocultural theorists, tend to attribute certain traits as an interplay of both social interactions and early childhood development.


Actually, it's not as simple as that.  We now know that strands of DNA can be either active or dormant, and can be turned on or off by environmental influences.  Thus, one's biology can actually be determined by their environment.  So nature and nurture interact in ways that are too complex to simply attribute a certain percentage to one or the other.


Right, Right, i agree. I am just expressing the fact that this is all we have work with at the present time. In the expression idea of genes, the notion that they can be switched on or off by the environment was furthered in psychology by epigenetic theory.


--------------------
No trees were harmed in the writing of this signature; however, millions of electrons were mildly inconvenienced.

Edited by AnxietyDrive (01/17/09 04:49 PM)

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Re: Where do instincts come from? [Re: AnxietyDrive]
    #9626054 -

Ok, so let's assume instincts are encoded into the DNA.. How did they get encoded into the DNA in the first place?

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Re: Where do instincts come from? [Re: Diaboleros]
    #9626084 -

Diaboleros said:
redgreenvines said:
what is found from play is not innate or instinctual at all.



So your claim is, instincts do not exist, and that we just learn everything by "playing"? So we just learn to breath by playing?  If we would have to learn how to control all the systems and the organs in the body by "playing" we would be dead before we would get the hang of it.. right?

NlightNd1 said:
DNA.  :dna: Personality studies conducted on identical twins, separated at birth, suggest that personality is almost entirely controlled by genetics. DNA also controls your instincts and your subconscious.


How about the second part of my question. How do they get into the DNA?


the breathing reflex is not learned. and it is a way simpler routine than instinct is supposed to be.
I am offering the little gem that instinct is just an overused  bag word for something that is glossed over - underanalysed: essentially play based learning.

another bag word for a bunch of stuff that is underanalysed, is the term subconscious - people use it as if it has a physical location (same as with instinct) but really it is simply memory in relation to the stream of consciousness.
we can refer to play as the body and the surrounding world in relation to the stream of consciousness. Play and Subconscious both (and one ought to include 'instinct') do not have a single organ (like the pineal or the hippo campus, or the thalamus) governing them except for the whole mind body system operating together.

as for DNA and personality, you must watch play and memory formation to understand what is happening.
watch how the big boned person plays and develops big boned character, watch how the button nosed cutie pie plays and develops character.

DNA (genotype) plays it's part in coding for developmental physique potential or phenotype, that's it, the rest comes from play, and how the features play out in life.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Where do instincts come from? [Re: Noteworthy]
    #9626299 -

Noteworthy said:
Because I think, of all the amazing things in life, there are some that are so many levels more complex than others.. with relation to dna.. and for an animal to have an instinct or dna memory, in my opinion, requires a more complex code than any other structure because, firstly, the brain is touted as the most complex organ. secondly, instincts are a whole series of states IN this most complex organ.
but this does not just include human instincts, but also bees or ants, all insects, arachnids, birds, fish, err.. etc.
given that these are the most complex and therefor the least likely, I think that in order to support evolution one must consider the answer to this question to be the ultimate sealant in affirming the belief - to understand how the most complex genetically programmed space-time interactions of life on earth developed


Good post. :smile:

The only question I would still have though, is why do you think that this is even more important than knowing one's purpose in life?
How do you think all this knowledge would benefit you, since you can't know what to do with yourself?


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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