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 MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
 
Registered: 12/02/05
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 Re: Where do instincts come from?  [Re: Noteworthy]
#9626299 - 01/17/09 01:14 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Noteworthy said:
Because I think, of all the amazing things in life, there are some that are so many levels more complex than others.. with relation to dna.. and for an animal to have an instinct or dna memory, in my opinion, requires a more complex code than any other structure because, firstly, the brain is touted as the most complex organ. secondly, instincts are a whole series of states IN this most complex organ.
but this does not just include human instincts, but also bees or ants, all insects, arachnids, birds, fish, err.. etc.
given that these are the most complex and therefor the least likely, I think that in order to support evolution one must consider the answer to this question to be the ultimate sealant in affirming the belief - to understand how the most complex genetically programmed space-time interactions of life on earth developed
Good post. 
The only question I would still have though, is why do you think that this is even more important than knowing one's purpose in life?
How do you think all this knowledge would benefit you, since you can't know what to do with yourself?
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Noteworthy
Sophyphile
Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 5,599
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Re: Where do instincts come from? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#9626348 - 01/17/09 01:31 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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I don't affiliate much with the question of my purpose.
I think that affirming evolution is a big step.. people who agree with evolution often do not recognise how much faith they are putting in their belief.
Its all tied in with purpose... but in the end..
I just don't think the question of 'what is my purpose' is very important, people should live so as to make the world how they want it to be, and in the end they will be able to look back and see how they influenced the universe and what role they truly play in the scheme of it all
imo.
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 lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
Stranger
Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 11,123
Loc: Texas
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Re: Where do instincts come from? [Re: Diaboleros]
#9626369 - 01/17/09 01:39 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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It depends what you mean by instincts.
If you touch something hot you will draw away from it. Why is that? That is an instinct, I think. It is an instruction that bypasses the cognitive stage and is expressed directly. Where did that come from? Well it had to have come from your DNA ultimately, because you will be hurt by hot temperatures regardless whether it is your first time or the hundredth time. You may never have experienced such a thing, but when you do your brain gives you an instruction: Don't touch hot things!
There are many such instructions, such as automatic breathing, sexual desire, nausea, fever and even things like hiccups and sneezing. No one learns to hiccup. We just develop like that, and DNA is the most likely culprit. Although the relationship between the DNA and the behavior may be extremely complex and may not be so simple as this gene causes this behavior. It could even be that our DNA merely sets up a system that is likely to result in certain instincts under "normal" conditions.
Since DNA always comes from your ancestors (outside of a biotech lab anyway) the answer is that these instincts came from your ancestors.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,170
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Re: Where do instincts come from? [Re: Noteworthy]
#9626370 - 01/17/09 01:39 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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evolution has no purpose attribute
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Where do instincts come from? [Re: redgreenvines]
#9626384 - 01/17/09 01:42 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
evolution has no purpose attribute
Substantiation?
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Diaboleros
Devil's spawn
Registered: 07/20/08
Posts: 1,856
Last seen: 6 years, 11 months
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Quote:
adjust said:
It depends what you mean by instincts.
If you touch something hot you will draw away from it. Why is that? That is an instinct, I think. It is an instruction that bypasses the cognitive stage and is expressed directly. Where did that come from? Well it had to have come from your DNA ultimately, because you will be hurt by hot temperatures regardless whether it is your first time or the hundredth time. You may never have experienced such a thing, but when you do your brain gives you an instruction: Don't touch hot things!
There are many such instructions, such as automatic breathing, sexual desire, nausea, fever and even things like hiccups and sneezing. No one learns to hiccup. We just develop like that, and DNA is the most likely culprit. Although the relationship between the DNA and the behavior may be extremely complex and may not be so simple as this gene causes this behavior. It could even be that our DNA merely sets up a system that is likely to result in certain instincts under "normal" conditions.
Since DNA always comes from your ancestors (outside of a biotech lab anyway) the answer is that these instincts came from your ancestors.
Very interesting reply, but how about the second part of the question. How did it get into your DNA? How do our ancestors put these instincts into the DNA?
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Where do instincts come from? [Re: Diaboleros]
#9626483 - 01/17/09 02:12 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diaboleros said:
How did it get into your DNA? How do our ancestors put these instincts into the DNA?
They didn't. Those ancestors with instincts present in their DNA survived long enough to reproduce their genes more often than those ancestors without instincts present in their DNA. It's merely a matter of which traits are more advantageous; nothing purposeful or anthropomorphic about it.
As far as asking why our ancestors were heterogenous in this fashion, mutation has a lot to do with it.
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Diaboleros
Devil's spawn
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Re: Where do instincts come from? [Re: deCypher]
#9626490 - 01/17/09 02:14 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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So the first instinct on how to fuck was pure random mutation? Those who weren't lucky to have the random mutation that allowed them to fuck got extinct, the rest survived? Howcome this random mutation only happens once in those billion generations, and doesn't happen again?
Edited by Diaboleros (01/17/09 02:23 PM)
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,170
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Re: Where do instincts come from? [Re: Diaboleros]
#9626493 - 01/17/09 02:14 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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the pulling away from pain is called a reflex.
i maintain the term instinct is just a catch all bag for un-thought-through ideas.
i also maintain that evolution (at a far other end of the discussion)
is a description of how forms changed in history which includes mutations death and survival.
when you run through it quickly and selectively it will seem to say things that it does not say, like playing a record backwards and finding recognizeable sounds
- we are not on equal footing (definitions, and understanding of basic science) if you think evolution has purpose.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Where do instincts come from? [Re: Diaboleros]
#9626495 - 01/17/09 02:16 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Well, with regards to fucking, procreation is essential to life. In this way I would say it would be one of the first key mutations that enabled self-replicating molecules, but of course the situation gets a little more complicated when reproduction switched over from asexual to sexual reproduction.
But in essence, yes, I would say that pure random mutation spawned the first self-replicating molecules. Naturally this is all speculation, of course, but IMO the most likely speculation unless you believe in intelligent design.
Edit, in response to your last question: Mutation happens all the time.
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lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
Stranger
Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 11,123
Loc: Texas
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Re: Where do instincts come from? [Re: Diaboleros]
#9626532 - 01/17/09 02:23 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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The ancestors themselves did not put the genes that cause or influence instincts into our genetic code. Those arose naturally through random mutations. As long as these mutations did not result in sterility, there was a chance that they could end up in the human gene pool. If, in addition to not causing sterility, the mutation had some benefit, then it could become common in the human gene pool over generations.
Notice how simple our instincts are compared to other creatures? That suggests to me that our genetic machine has made a gamble that our brain is better at sorting out what to do than instincts could, besides a few simple ones such as Don't Touch Hot Things!
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Diaboleros
Devil's spawn
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Last seen: 6 years, 11 months
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Wouldn't it be more logical, since all animals share the same ancestors and since all animals can fuck, that this instinct of fucking evolved instead of randomly mutated?
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lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
Stranger
Registered: 12/16/04
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Loc: Texas
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Re: Where do instincts come from? [Re: Diaboleros]
#9626540 - 01/17/09 02:27 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Yes, but sexual reproduction has been around a lot longer than we have. Plants and fungi also reproduce sexually. It is a very old behavior that I'm sure also evolved through mutation, but the ball was set in motion a rather long time ago.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Where do instincts come from? [Re: Diaboleros]
#9626560 - 01/17/09 02:33 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diaboleros said:
Wouldn't it be more logical, since all animals share the same ancestors and since all animals can fuck, that this instinct of fucking evolved instead of randomly mutated?
What's the distinction? Evolution both requires mutation and natural selection; without heterogeneity in the gene pool there will be no change over time.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,170
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Re: Where do instincts come from? [Re: deCypher]
#9626574 - 01/17/09 02:36 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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lets look at the hatred of evolution
- the idea that we have a relation like that of distant cousins with monkeys.
that hatred makes people think animals do not play.
people may not have heard about cats being in heat,
but when they are in heat the play that they follow turns to furious fucking and that leads to kittens naturally.
even lizards play, some of it is reflex, like scratching an itch, and some of it is injenuity like a ring of males taking turns with a hot pussy cat.
the whole thing about heat and sexual reproduction is oversimplified as instinct, it distances our cousins in the animal kingdom, and saves embarassing evaluations.
for simpler creatures like insects, the sexual behavior phase replaces all other behaviors, this is chemical, physical, and biophysical.
the sizes shapes and positionment of things that are mature and ready to join all figure together.
the grab bag idea is to call it instinct.
but reflex and nervous energy pretty much sum it up.
like santa clause and christmas.
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AnxietyDrive
Aspiring Psychologist
Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 472
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Re: Where do instincts come from? [Re: redgreenvines]
#9626700 - 01/17/09 03:06 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Clearly evolution has its inherent flaws...
Nature has supported the emergence of species that seem to have disadvantageous traits and seem less prone to survival than other species that fit the conceptual framework of Darwinian natural selection.
An example of this is the Peacock with its colorful and decorative tail -- undoubtedly such a display of colors would result in a higher rate of predation and result in the destruction of the species, but obviously this has not occurred. These types of phenomena seem to fly in the face of traditional Darwinian thinking.
Of course evolution has been observed more so on the microscopic level than on the macroscopic.
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Mr. Mushrooms
Spore Print Collector
Registered: 05/25/08
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Loc: Registered: 6/04/02
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Re: Where do instincts come from? [Re: AnxietyDrive]
#9628454 - 01/17/09 08:40 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Indeed. I'm not sure anyone has used the word 'instinct' in the proper way in this thread. "If you touch something hot you will draw away from it." Not at first you won't. Learning to draw away from something hot is a learned behavior, not an instinct.
According to the Oxford Dictionary of Biology, an instinct is:
Quote:
An innate tendency to behave in a particular way, which does not depend critically on particular learning experiences for its development and therefore is seen in a similar form in all normally reared individuals of the same sex and species.
Songs of birds would be instinctual.
Microevolution is able to be observed; macroevolution cannot by seen. It can only be extrapolated from microevolution. Why history is a philosophical subject is beyond me.
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Noteworthy
Sophyphile
Registered: 10/05/08
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Re: Where do instincts come from? [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
#9629188 - 01/17/09 11:26 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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one of the thingsd I find most interesting about natural selection, random mutation, and this topic of instincts, is that
well
each of us has the propensity to have a mutation that we will pass down to our offspring, one which is of the same sort that is apparently implicated in genetic diversity.
So no matter how human we are, everyone has the potential to be, in many ways, a unique being.. with instincts that no one had before.. even perceptions that are different to any other human
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Mr. Mushrooms
Spore Print Collector
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Re: Where do instincts come from? [Re: Noteworthy]
#9629261 - 01/17/09 11:42 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Yes, all of us are mutants. Some are more mutanted than others.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,170
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Re: Where do instincts come from? [Re: Noteworthy]
#9630317 - 01/18/09 05:52 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Noteworthy said:
So no matter how human we are, everyone has the potential to be, in many ways, a unique being.. with instincts that no one had before.. even perceptions that are different to any other human
you would have already either failed to live due to your mutation, or it would be clearly visible.
you might be really strange, but you are not likely a mutant.
please don't take that as a personalism
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