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"Fear" & "Instinct" as two DIFFERENT "Senses".....(?)
    #4124366 -

egghead1 said:
eMotionALLmotion said:
egghead1 said:
But irrational fears like that of harmless  insects for example should be confronted and overcome becuase they are as useless as false alarm. If i did'nt have any fears, i would'nt be alive today, in fact i probably would'nt have made it past 5 years old.  :wink:


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There is a difference between fear and knowledge of danger "instincts" learned from education while growing up....    :wink:
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:heart:


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Step out in front of a moving car and then tell me that there's a difference :lol:.
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They go hand in hand my friend. Its quite obvious that when a fox is chasing a rabbit, the rabbit is SCARED SHITLESS of getting caught. :smirk:


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I somehow missed this when the topic was "freshly" going last, so I will make it "fresh" again....!  :grin:
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:egg:, you yourself stated in your words that Fear was a "False Alarm"....  Now lets disect and expound that very notional thought....!    :heart:
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By what your response was, can I surmise that what you are trying to say is that "Fear = Instinct"....?   
If you are, I would beg to differ, as I see  two completely different states of mind/consciouness/being....
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FEAR....:
Fear is something that sits inside your head as manifested (by choice) as an eMotion - perhaps to something that is not "there" now, or an illusion of what might be....  Like a fear of the unknown, or like the fear of giving a speach in public - as there *may* be nothing really "there" as a solid foundation to base this/these manifested fear(s) upon....  And if there is a fear as a solid foundation, it is from conditioning possibly thru a past event, bu not necessarily....  This fear of the "unknown" may unfold in front of you, and if you fear it, you may not fully understand/comprehend or act upon the "NOW" situation in "full awareness", not the way you would have if you did not have that self invoked fear manifestation....  Your mind's energies would be focussed on the fear of the event instead of the actual event....  You wouldn't necessarily act rationally, or act like "yourself", as your "driving" sense of fear would effect how you react, even if the situation is actually "harmless"....    You may make your body pump out some adrenaline as a result of this "fear"(along with a few other components of stress bio-chemicals), but your brain does not seem to "think without thinking"(as it relates to instincts)....    As it would seem, the more you think about the self manifested fear, the more uncomfortable you make yourself in this seemingly un-natural state of consciousness....  A self contained downward spiral, IF you let it be - or simply "self defeating"....
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INSTINCT....:
Now when you step out in front of a car and notice it is driving straight at you at a high rate of speed, you do not have time to manifest a fear, and the hard coded instinct to survive (as a sense) would be the driving forces behind the actions you *might* have time to react upon - if not, perhaps one will die trying....  In an instant you recognize/sense (or become aware in the "HERE & NOW") the cause and effect of what could happen if you do not act quickly....  The adrenaline mechanism to higher self survival KIKS IN X 100 INSTANTLY as the full primal instinct to survive pulses thru you.....    The adrenaline boost looks over the most probable and quickest way to get out of danger upon full and instant evaluation of the situation, and most likely IMMEDIATELY sets a "plan" into motion to safety....  The whole cycle of events happens at an alarming :eek: speed to which conscious thought seems to be on "auto-pilot" (or, INSTINCT).... 
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As it would seem in the context I have written, Instinct *seems* to be more of it's own "sense", as it has it's own set of characteristics - as compaired to the eMotive feeling or sense of self manifested fear, when in context of being in the face of actual life threatening danger....   
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Summary of observation....:
Fear = Self Manifested eMotion/Feeling that "clouds" Awareness/Consciousness....  Sense of eMotion/Feeling of discomfort as self manifested for conditioned thinking about future or past events, not an event in the "HERE & NOW"....  It may have biased effects on how you actually handle or react to the "HERE & NOW", but it is not the driving force or true "effect"  to the actual events unfolding....  It is more a feeling, or a false veil of "protection" to the ego - which inturn may actually harm the ego, if one lets it BE so....  Not an "alert" of awareness persay, and not really "instinctual", as it is(or may be) a conditioned and (un)supporting emotion to the self, and to the ego....
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Instinct / Survival Mode = Auto-Pilot Manifestation of Awareness/Consciousness....  A different sense, but *seemingly* not really fundementally rooted on an emotion or feeling - and does not really "build" (like fear)....  Instincts do not really seem to be a choice either, they are just there when "needed" for safety....  It is a "switch" that instantly "turns on" in the HERE & NOW to help you cope immediately to the awareness/realization of impending danger to physical harm - as a primal urge....  It is self manifested itself by an outside trigger when danger is recognized....  Can I say that this has nothing to do with "ego", as it seems to have more to do with LIFE's very own survival mechanism, or self preservation itself....
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Discuss....?


:sun:


--------------------
Uni-VersALL      MasterPeace
eMotive  :sun: Divinity NowThere Infinity :sun:  eMelody

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Re: "Fear" & "Instinct" as two DIFFERENT "Senses".....(?) [Re: eMotionALLmotion]
    #4124409 -

Fear is an instinct. Not a legitimate instinct (a natural instinct that is; well, that is beyond its function and purpose), but one gifted by our perceptions of what is to be feared; spiders, heights, people, fire, etc..


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Re: "Fear" & "Instinct" as two DIFFERENT "Senses".....(?) [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4124458 -

How is fear an "Instinct" if it can be faced and overcome....?  It can also be not faced and overcome, as in facing it in one's own mind and "killing" it's very notion....    Perhaps that would be called "Facing your fears from within"....?    Unless you think of it as Fear being a conditioned "Instinct".... 
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I still see tham as two different "things"....  One is in the "HERE & NOW" as a DRIVING FORCE, and the other INHIBITS the driving force of HERE & NOW....   
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To sit in a feeling of fear for spiders that are not there is somewhat different from the instictual force of dealing with a big fuzzy spider that drops into your lap.... 
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Fear can be ego driven....
Instinct may not be ego driven....  ---Do you see this difference that I am seeing....?  :heart:


--------------------
Uni-VersALL      MasterPeace
eMotive  :sun: Divinity NowThere Infinity :sun:  eMelody

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Re: "Fear" & "Instinct" as two DIFFERENT "Senses".....(?) [Re: eMotionALLmotion]
    #4124477 -

Fear as an instinct to promote survival.

It's instinctual overall (excluding rare cases suicide et etal) to promote one's well being. However fear of a person and what they associate with the concept is often misconstrued as a threat, however to them it is used to sustain themselves.

I do see what you're saying... but it is as much as it isn't.

Instinct is ego driven though isn't it? Think about how we as individuals regard our own survival over others (generally, unless taught differently). Ego is an instinct placing emphasis on the individual in question, and self importance feeds into survival.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Re: "Fear" & "Instinct" as two DIFFERENT "Senses".....(?) [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4124538 -

Ego can be dissolved, can one also dissolve Instinct - or would one just choose to not act upon the instinct drive....?  ---And do they go hand in hand....?  As perhaps they both may be dissolved, but I do not think they necessarily go hand in hand....(?)   
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If Ego and Instinct are not "alligned" together, I would still come to the conclusion(so far) that Fear and Instinct are to seperate functions, perhaps just closely related....(?)    :heart:


--------------------
Uni-VersALL      MasterPeace
eMotive  :sun: Divinity NowThere Infinity :sun:  eMelody

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Re: "Fear" & "Instinct" as two DIFFERENT "Senses".....(?) [Re: eMotionALLmotion]
    #4124568 -

Fear is driven by survival instincts. In some fucked up manner a fear was created and it relates to survival mechanisms.

Ego cannot be dissolved... It can be reduced (in respects to the self-appreciating ego if that's what you're referring to, if not might need to clarify). If anyone experienced full ego-loss they'd have no need to share it, nor a need to talk about it. Their would be no motivation associated with an ego-less state.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Re: "Fear" & "Instinct" as two DIFFERENT "Senses".....(?) [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4124703 -

I don't believe fear to be an instinct. It's impossible to say why some people are more fearful than others or why some people experience fear in some situations that others do not, but I believe it's a learned emotion.

Personally, I think fear is what a person feels if they aren't certain of the outcome of their actions or the circumstances surrounding them. Fear is often associated with weakness, but I don't think that is necessarily so. I think most everyone feels fear, just some people deal with it far better than others. For example, I think someone that has good survival instincts will still experience fear, they are just able to avoid letting it cloud their judgment.

Ego is a whole other topic. I think ego can be dissolved because people's attitudes change with time and can be influenced by atmosphere around them. I know I have a much lower level of ego than I had when I was younger, and personally, I'm hoping to dissolve my ego completely at some point. Reducing ego is much easier than dissolving it, though I believe it can be dissolved.

If I had more time, I'd post a little more specifically about my opinions. Perhaps I'll post again later. I do find this to be an extremely interesting topic.

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Re: "Fear" & "Instinct" as two DIFFERENT "Senses".....(?) [Re: uhlix]
    #4124770 -

http://www.herwords.co.uk/fear.htm fear, a bit general.

Ego cannot be dissolved? Specify what you are referring to as ego, and what you mean by dissolved... wholly obliterated, changed?


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "Fear" & "Instinct" as two DIFFERENT "Senses".....(?) [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4124789 -

I am thinking survival mechanisms are a learned conditioning(but may be awakened hardwired mechanisms), and come with learning knowledge of what is dangerous....  Fear is what we make for ourselves(sometimes falsely), and is conditioned by ourselves internally - just as they can be un-conditioned....  Fear by itself may cause the "Fight or Flight" mode before danger might even present itself....  Instinct lets one observe the surroundings and act automatically/accordingly when needed....  Knowledge/Awareness of danger popping up in a dangerous situation instinctually, seems a bit different than fear of the future or non-existant dangerous situations....
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I am thinking differently then you about ego as well....  I believe that an egoless state PROMOTES motivation, especially that of curiousity and learning....  Just like a newborn child growing up in innocence, egoless, unstaind, and motivated to each emerging tooth....!  :muppet:  And you are right, they do not share it because they have not learned what it is yet....  They ask a LOT of questions, discuss ANYTHING they are curious about, and are curious about everything....!  Is this not a motivated egoless state....?  Then as age progresses, and as they learn about the concepts of "ME", the ego is then created in self reflective conditioning of the world around them....    Perhaps as a defense mechanism in the beggining....(?)
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These are my thoughts, it doesn't mean that I am "right"....  :heart:


--------------------
Uni-VersALL      MasterPeace
eMotive  :sun: Divinity NowThere Infinity :sun:  eMelody

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Re: "Fear" & "Instinct" as two DIFFERENT "Senses".....(?) [Re: uhlix]
    #4124844 -

uhlix said:
I think most everyone feels fear, just some people deal with it far better than others.  For example, I think someone that has good survival instincts will still experience fear, they are just able to avoid letting it cloud their judgment.


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AAaaahhhh, you finally posted....!  Welcome....!    :heart: :thumbup:
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I think it is important to make a distinction here to what you are calling "fear" to someone that has "no fear"....  I believe that when people are fearless, a dangerous situation becomes a controlled "thrill" or "excitement", to which the mind/consciousness is not clouded by fear - as there is none....  It seems to be a different state of mind entirely, yet still very similar - just without the "cloud"....  Thrills or excitement are embraced for the moment in clarity, and reflected upon later after the situation resolves....


--------------------
Uni-VersALL      MasterPeace
eMotive  :sun: Divinity NowThere Infinity :sun:  eMelody

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Re: "Fear" & "Instinct" as two DIFFERENT "Senses".....(?) [Re: eMotionALLmotion]
    #4124857 -

:shrug: In my book nobody's right... not even me :razz:.

:smile:

Anyhow, fear is an instinct as to how it is carried out and used it is conditioned. We can talk of ego in a similar respect in how it's tied to our instincts.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Re: "Fear" & "Instinct" as two DIFFERENT "Senses".....(?) [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4124887 -

:lol:    Everybody is wrong....(?)    :tongue:
.
I can deal with that....!  :heart:
(and it made me think of another topic...!)

So, what you are saying is that both Instincts, Fear, and Ego can be conditioned, as well as un-conditioned....?
(still thinking that instincts are still gonna~ hit hard enough to make you react to a situation in the HERE & NOW before you get a chance to "un-react" to it....)


--------------------
Uni-VersALL      MasterPeace
eMotive  :sun: Divinity NowThere Infinity :sun:  eMelody

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Re: "Fear" & "Instinct" as two DIFFERENT "Senses".....(?) [Re: eMotionALLmotion]
    #4124906 -

Yes, everything is conditioned, however they are instinctual (instinct is an approach to preservation, not tied to the method that it applies to; if that makes sense).


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "Fear" & "Instinct" as two DIFFERENT "Senses".....(?) [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4124941 -

How would fear for giving a public speech approach preservation of one's self....?  What if it is a speech about how one might survive, and there is too big of a fear to give that speech....?  :wink:
.
What about a fear of public affection, or a fear of the number 13, or a fear of clowns, or mimes, or ants behind glass, etc etc....?    You are bringing up fears to true danger situations, but that is not what all fear is about/based on....  They seem to be conditioned fears persay, but nothing to do with survival....  :grin:


--------------------
Uni-VersALL      MasterPeace
eMotive  :sun: Divinity NowThere Infinity :sun:  eMelody

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Re: "Fear" & "Instinct" as two DIFFERENT "Senses".....(?) [Re: eMotionALLmotion]
    #4125009 -

It has everything to deal with instinct through conditioning.
Fear is a survival mechanism that often gets fucked up in ther person exhibiting it.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "Fear" & "Instinct" as two DIFFERENT "Senses".....(?) [Re: eMotionALLmotion]
    #4125031 -

OK, perhaps Fear & Excitement are different sides of the same coin.... Where as Fear may be clouded by doubt,
and Excitement/Thrill may be pushed by confidence....?
.
It still leaves "Survival Instincts" in it's own "class", perhaps just influenced by Fear and/or Excitement/Thrill....?


--------------------
Uni-VersALL      MasterPeace
eMotive  :sun: Divinity NowThere Infinity :sun:  eMelody

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Re: "Fear" & "Instinct" as two DIFFERENT "Senses".....(?) [Re: eMotionALLmotion]
    #4125044 -

Fear is a survival instinct, that is often misconstrued. Excitement/thrill are merely reactions exhibited by those experiencing them from said fear.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: "Fear" & "Instinct" as two DIFFERENT "Senses".....(?) [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4125060 -

If fear is a survival instinct, how do you explain what I said earlier....?
.
Quote:
What about a fear of public affection, or a fear of the number 13, or a fear of clowns, or mimes, or ants behind glass, etc etc....? You are bringing up fears to true danger situations, but that is not what all fear is about/based on.... They seem to be conditioned fears persay, but nothing to do with survival....



--------------------
Uni-VersALL      MasterPeace
eMotive  :sun: Divinity NowThere Infinity :sun:  eMelody

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Re: "Fear" & "Instinct" as two DIFFERENT "Senses".....(?) [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4125110 -

Psychoactive1984 said:
Fear is a survival instinct, that is often misconstrued. Excitement/thrill are merely reactions exhibited by those experiencing them from said fear.


.
But there can be a seperation of "thrill" and "fear"....  Lets use rollercoasters for an example....  If it was a "doubting" fear for the ride, instincts would take over and make one not ride a roller coaster - as some people just won't....  But for the "Thrill Seeker", it is not an instinctual fear for survival that drives them to ride the ride, it is a confident excitement....    :shrug:
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The same can be said for swimming in the ocean where there are known sharks....  The "thrill seeker" will rely on their instincts to command the situation if it arrises....    A person in fear or doubt will avoid the situation, in fear.... 
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Fear seems to "rule" the instincts of a person, where as instincts seem to "rule" that of the thrill seeker....  (influence, or the lack of....)


--------------------
Uni-VersALL      MasterPeace
eMotive  :sun: Divinity NowThere Infinity :sun:  eMelody

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Re: "Fear" & "Instinct" as two DIFFERENT "Senses".....(?) [Re: eMotionALLmotion]
    #4125120 -

It's the fear that creates the excitement isn't it?

The thrill is a result of fear isn't it?

Fear of the unknown, being thrown into a situation whos variables aren't wholly calculated.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

Edited by Psychoactive1984 (05/02/05 08:08 PM)

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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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