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Global Warming and the Technological solution * 1
    #24913483 -

CO2 levels are going up and humans are responsible for it.

While the implications aren't clear, especially regarding time frames, it's worth pointing out that without some change CO2 ppm will continue to go up without any obvious ceiling. I'm skeptical of time frame implications, but it's reasonable to suggest we should mitigate our CO2 contribution due to the fact that the science isn't settled. Also due to that fact there should be at least some sense of urgency in that regard.

This is where things tend to get political, meaning to say, how forcefully should we be in our attempts to reduce CO2 output?

There are two paths to that end, and most people are only aware of one. To tax and legislate or not. IOW, looking at the extremes of the obvious path, to do nothing suggests there's no problem that needs to be fixed OR draconian measures are needed to curtail CO2 output. To that end, proposals that would halt CO2 increases haven't even be suggested. The most extreme measures would only slow the increase.

The other path? There is a problem that needs to be fixed but nothing should be done about it.

At least, not as a function of policy, unless of course the policy was to increase funding for alternative energy. But, it's not necessary. Why? Because human curiosity and the desire for profit will take care of the problem all by itself. I will lay out the case for why this is so and the time frame involved.

Despite my suggestion that government funding isn't necessary it wouldn't hurt. Whether it's an appropriate use of government funds is a different matter. One person might suggest that capable governments have an obligation to provide such funding and that the response in that regard has been pitiful, while another person might suggest the government has no business trying to do something it's not structured for and that while it wouldn't hurt, government's ability to accelerate the process is questionable.

ITER represents the funding that government has contributed. Planned to go online around 2025 it represents the most conventional approach to producing energy from fusion. Detractors of government funding will suggest that it's over budget, setbacks will likely push the date past 2025 and private corporations may end up beating them to the punch.

Meanwhile there are many companies working on fusion. The science is sound, it's just a matter of engineering solutions and funding. It seems likely to be that we'll see fusion generators producing energy in the next couple decades, and only a matter of decades beyond that before fusion plants are going up everywhere.

There are a variety of companies working on battery technology using alternate materials like carbon and sodium to replace lithium. It seems likely that in the next couple decades we'll see those products hitting the market. Batteries will be cheaper, will not require rare materials, will hold much more energy than current technology and can be recharged a practically unlimited number of times without degradation.

Between the advancement of those two technologies gas and coal will eventually be financial liabilities in an unregulated free market.

There are a variety of companies working on test tube meat. The media currently suggests that in the future cultured meat will be the poor man's meat while the rich continue to eat animals. However, it seems likely that eventually cultured meat will eventually be tastier and healthier than the real thing, and it seems likely that in the next couple decades we'll see widespread availability of such products. There may be a niche market for real meat, but for the most part raising animals for food will eventually be a poor decision in an unregulated free market.

I think most people regardless of their current stance will begin to frown on eating animals once there's an alternative that tastes better.

What about other technologies? I'm not a fan of wind and solar "farms" but I do like the idea of off grid energy and/or non-localized energy production. Solar energy technology, while still not ready to take over fossil fuels has consistently improved since it's introduction and will likely continue to improve. Initial costs will continue to go down and maintenance cost will go down. Solar farms will probably be a thing of the past but buildings and vehicles will be ideal surfaces for solar energy collection.

If the various governments of the world want a halt to CO2 and methane emissions all they have to do is get out of the way. If we rely only on the desire for profit and scientific curiosity it seems likely CO2 emissions will return to pre-industrial levels within the next 100-200 years. Furthermore, CO2 level increases as a percentage of current will begin to drop in the next 40-50 years and probably level off in a similar time frame.

I'm not going to provide links because it would take dozens of them to hint at the scope and variety of technologies that are being funded today, but I encourage you to do some research yourself. The information is easy to find with obvious search terms. Also, I considered posting this in the political forum. I think it's best served here, hope it doesn't get moved, but whatever.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

why there is reality and patterned, law-like consistency at all, rather than noise or non-reality is not a question physics answers. It's a question physics presupposes an answer to in order to provide other answers.

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Re: Global Warming and the Technological solution [Re: Rahz]
    #24913530 -

I put my faith in the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES :pope:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Global Warming and the Technological solution [Re: Icelander]
    #24913600 -

Trump will probably start so many armed conflicts that the human's available to consume and/or raise animals will drastically go down in numbers.

I hardly eat beef.  I don't think that animals are to blame totally for Co2.  We are steadily killing off life forms that convert co2 to 02.

co2 levels go up every winter as there is not a lot of gas exchange in the frozen part of the world.


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found

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Re: Global Warming and the Technological solution [Re: Morel Guy] * 1
    #24913699 -

Hoping to not make this thread about politics or Trump.

Cows produce methane. The equivalent CO2 production will be about 4 tons per year for 1 cow in terms of how effective a greenhouse gas methane is. There are 1.5 billion cows, the vast majority of which are domestic. That's the equivalent of 6 billion tons of CO2 per year not to mention the vast tracts of land used to grow them becomes unavailable to many indigenous species. In that vein, the only thing stopping people from growing food underground or in skyscrapers is energy costs. In the future energy costs may be so cheap there will be no reason to grow any food on arable land. Eliminating land based food cultivation can return about 90% of human use land (over 40% of the Earth's land surface) back to nature. As a bonus, the majority of fresh water used by humans is used for farming. Growing hydroponically will cut our water use in half. Water in the air functions as a greenhouse gas. I don't have figures, but the vast majority of crop water is evaporated.

I've always been skeptical of global warming and still am in some regards. The phrase "the science is settled" doesn't relate to the entire philosophy of warming, just the idea that humans are causing half of it (which is debatable to some degree)... and the 97% figure the settled science is based on is debatable. Some scientists included in the figure have suggested their work was misinterpreted. The 97% figure itself suggests humans are responsible for at least 50% of temp rise. That means there's a consensus that humans have caused a .4 degree temp rise in the last 150 years. What isn't really up for debate is whether humans are increasing CO2 levels. It varies by season but goes up every year and there's no reasonable alternative for the human cause. The CO2 rise we see correlates with the amount of CO2 we're releasing into the atmosphere.

I for one see no reason to argue with that bit of the puzzle. I do have a problem with the fear mongering and politics involved with wealth distribution in the guise of saving the climate, but logically if the CO2 goes up every year and that never changes, eventually it will be a problem. Unless we discover a more complex chemistry that suggests natural mitigation it's smart to assume CO2 will continue to increase and that an unlimited CO2 increase will eventually have adverse effects. It's just simple logic, and while it might not be correct we should assume it is unless/until we can prove it's not.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

why there is reality and patterned, law-like consistency at all, rather than noise or non-reality is not a question physics answers. It's a question physics presupposes an answer to in order to provide other answers.

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Re: Global Warming and the Technological solution [Re: Rahz]
    #24913814 -

GOP doesn't believe in climate change so it's hard to avoid politics.

But no, science shouldn't be political and it always has been.  Stupid people cannot accept facts.  Lot's of stupid people out there.


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found

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Re: Global Warming and the Technological solution [Re: Morel Guy]
    #24913859 -

ice ages are natural. C02 might mitigate some of the insuperable effects of such an ice age being impacted by C02 levels- flooding will occur. humanity will live on- but trauma will be sustained through inundation and pollution- but through this the realization of the continuance and futurity of life, due to our size, technological advancement, and population density, at this late stage in the game- capitalism, still, as it stands, is the betterment and improvement of abundance and freedom in the use of ATP and thus the realization of that, inevitably, will lead to the further advancement of mankind in terms of liberation, in the "seapunk", if you will; this will lead to a sort of Libertarian Paganism (especially with online communications, and the betterment of storage and memory technologies, of course mechanical and component tech will advance us into space, eventually, as a resource exigency arises-- the operation of looking into climatology won't stop anywhere, especially when one considers the trauma that'll occur-- but people will use the changes in the era to progress in human thought and the psyche- with strife concurrent of course, and the viruses of Revolutionary Fin de siècle thinking will continue to be conterminous with Anarchist thought in it's various forms, with this strife (and on various angles criminality, whether without ruler, or from a state, corporation, et al), and people will still continue to war in ideas and thought, so people will seek more and more composite material for their sketches, so to speak, but technologies will seek to weather us through the storm of the coming ice age, no matter the floods.

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Re: Global Warming and the Technological solution [Re: Rahz]
    #24913864 -

PS: i keep telling people about India and their antediluvian convolution forgetting the constancy of human procreation and thusly Bovine procreation and activation of gases in the atmosphere, but that is about all i can do

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Re: Global Warming and the Technological solution [Re: Rahz] * 1
    #24913922 -

It's really hard to know if we are the major contributor to global climate change. That's the bottom line imo. However the left makes everyone who won't toe the line into a monster when actually they make up most of the middle class which is directly or indirectly responsible for much of human made  pollution.  Funny how that works.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Global Warming and the Technological solution [Re: Morel Guy]
    #24914011 -

Morel Guy said:
GOP doesn't believe in climate change so it's hard to avoid politics.

But no, science shouldn't be political and it always has been.  Stupid people cannot accept facts.  Lot's of stupid people out there.


If by stupid you mean biased then I can agree with that. I think a lot of people in the GOP (and maybe just people in general) get turned off by the politicians who threaten doom and use science as a political tool. New York was supposed to be under water by now. That was predicted by a politician and proponent of the "science is settled" crowd. Even if people don't dig into the science for themselves they will eventually start to call bull shit regardless of what the truth is. The media doesn't seem to care much about making a distinction between science and political agenda either.

A lot of people do deny humans can cause climate change, but there are many on the right who understand it's more complicated than that... and that political agendas aren't always cut and dry. I suspect many people in professional politics and various industries understand technology will nullify greenhouse gas contributions over time, but it's still a good way to scare people into doing things they wouldn't normally do.

"We redistribute de facto the world's wealth by climate policy" -Ottmar Edenhofer


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

why there is reality and patterned, law-like consistency at all, rather than noise or non-reality is not a question physics answers. It's a question physics presupposes an answer to in order to provide other answers.

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Re: Global Warming and the Technological solution [Re: akira_akuma]
    #24914021 -

akira_akuma said:
PS: i keep telling people about India and their antediluvian convolution forgetting the constancy of human procreation and thusly Bovine procreation and activation of gases in the atmosphere, but that is about all i can do


India is not a good place IMO. Thousands of years of spiritual practice has left the country in a shambles and has done nothing to limit violence against females.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Global Warming and the Technological solution [Re: akira_akuma] * 1
    #24914035 -

akira_akuma said:
ice ages are natural. C02 might mitigate some of the insuperable effects of such an ice age being impacted by C02 levels- flooding will occur. humanity will live on- but trauma will be sustained through inundation and pollution- but through this the realization of the continuance and futurity of life, due to our size, technological advancement, and population density, at this late stage in the game- capitalism, still, as it stands, is the betterment and improvement of abundance and freedom in the use of ATP and thus the realization of that, inevitably, will lead to the further advancement of mankind in terms of liberation, in the "seapunk", if you will; this will lead to a sort of Libertarian Paganism (especially with online communications, and the betterment of storage and memory technologies, of course mechanical and component tech will advance us into space, eventually, as a resource exigency arises-- the operation of looking into climatology won't stop anywhere, especially when one considers the trauma that'll occur-- but people will use the changes in the era to progress in human thought and the psyche- with strife concurrent of course, and the viruses of Revolutionary Fin de siècle thinking will continue to be conterminous with Anarchist thought in it's various forms, with this strife (and on various angles criminality, whether without ruler, or from a state, corporation, et al), and people will still continue to war in ideas and thought, so people will seek more and more composite material for their sketches, so to speak, but technologies will seek to weather us through the storm of the coming ice age, no matter the floods.


If we survive all that I guess we'll be using solar reflectors to normalize surface radiation.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

why there is reality and patterned, law-like consistency at all, rather than noise or non-reality is not a question physics answers. It's a question physics presupposes an answer to in order to provide other answers.

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Re: Global Warming and the Technological solution [Re: Rahz]
    #24915164 -

can we use ice to freeze trump and his enormous gas issues.
like plop him into a locking shithole freezer with his stinking methane and bury the key.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Global Warming and the Technological solution [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #24915213 -

redgreenvines said:
can we use ice to freeze trump and his enormous gas issues.
like plop him into a locking shithole freezer with his stinking methane and bury the key.


Are you trying to turn this thread into a shithole?


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

why there is reality and patterned, law-like consistency at all, rather than noise or non-reality is not a question physics answers. It's a question physics presupposes an answer to in order to provide other answers.

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Re: Global Warming and the Technological solution [Re: Rahz]
    #24915233 -

yeah, seriously, Trump is liked, when are fucking people going to gather in their heads that they are simply just wrong, or at least pumping out vapid thoughts alike the vapid media which has made them only interested in agenda politics inside the mainstream, and which only defames and propagandizes against outsiders to their operations, like those whom support Trump- a large female and male populace, some young and some old, and alot of them rich and alot of them poor, actually, and alot of them online doing their best to support their president (mostly because ANTIFA comes to try and stomp on any Trump supporters out in the streets- makes people wanna be more active...)

it just is really strange. people should be talking about how THINGS are fucked up...not just Trump. Trump has been the most weirdly good president in any inordinate amount of time, that is, in contemporary politics...the only president i think could compare is maybe a JFK.....

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Re: Global Warming and the Technological solution [Re: akira_akuma] * 1
    #24915244 -

that is astonishingly brilliant!
do you believe any of that?


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Global Warming and the Technological solution [Re: redgreenvines]
    #24915253 -

i believe all of it. you are acting like some activated robot.

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Re: Global Warming and the Technological solution [Re: Rahz] * 1
    #24915282 -

nice post that gives me hope.. i dont really see how the private sector would just sort this out tho without government intervention. i mean businesses operate to make profit not to make the world better/more stable (?)


--------------------
dripping with fantasy

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Re: Global Warming and the Technological solution [Re: quinn]
    #24915367 -

quinn said:
nice post that gives me hope.. i dont really see how the private sector would just sort this out tho without government intervention. i mean businesses operate to make profit not to make the world better/more stable (?)


Making the world a better place is a nice sentiment and good PR but profit is the bottom line and that's why research is funded. There are billions of dollars in fusion technology.

A partial lists of companies/entities funding fusion technology: General Fusion, LLP Fusion, Helion Energy, LPPX, Sorlox, Tri Alpha Energy, Lockheed Martin, Google, LDX (MIT), NIF (USA), ITER (International), Lawrenceville Plasma Physics, etc.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

why there is reality and patterned, law-like consistency at all, rather than noise or non-reality is not a question physics answers. It's a question physics presupposes an answer to in order to provide other answers.

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Re: Global Warming and the Technological solution [Re: akira_akuma]
    #24915871 -

GOP?


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Global Warming and the Technological solution [Re: akira_akuma] * 2
    #24916664 -

akira_akuma said:
yeah, seriously, Trump is liked, when are fucking people going to gather in their heads that they are simply just wrong, or at least pumping out vapid thoughts alike the vapid media which has made them only interested in agenda politics inside the mainstream, and which only defames and propagandizes against outsiders to their operations, like those whom support Trump- a large female and male populace, some young and some old, and alot of them rich and alot of them poor, actually, and alot of them online doing their best to support their president (mostly because ANTIFA comes to try and stomp on any Trump supporters out in the streets- makes people wanna be more active...)

it just is really strange. people should be talking about how THINGS are fucked up...not just Trump. Trump has been the most weirdly good president in any inordinate amount of time, that is, in contemporary politics...the only president i think could compare is maybe a JFK.....



Trump is the right president at the right time. God Bless the USA. I'll always love Trump for calling the reporters "Fake News" on live camera. I laugh my ass off every time I remember that.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (01/15/18 06:56 PM)

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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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