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suicide
    #5616366 -

did you ever think about doing it or tried to commit it?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: suicide [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5616373 -

I think everybody has at least thought about it. I thought about it and realized it is the single most retarded thing one can possibly do. Life isn't something that should be idly thrown away.


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I am a fictional character

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Re: suicide [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5616403 -

I would do it if I ever really felt like it, and I may one day; but not today, so I'm not going to worry about it. :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: suicide [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5616445 -

several times.

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Re: suicide [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5616505 -

DoctorJ said:
several times.


1. what made you? (if its not a sicret)
2. what made you go on?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: suicide [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5616516 -

Earlier this year I was very depressed and was very, very close to doing it.

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Re: suicide [Re: Redstorm]
    #5616530 -

Redstorm said:
Earlier this year I was very depressed and was very, very close to doing it.


so what was your plan? (I mean the style of execution)


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: suicide [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5616586 -

I've considered it a few times.

Why you ask? Well, I was depressed. I got no real enjoyment out of anything, had no real friends, fought with my parents a fair amount, and generally felt very lonely and lacking in love. I became very existential during this time period, and dipped into nihilism. I concluded that ultimately nothing matters, so why bother with anything?

So why didn't I? I don't know really. A feeling of curiousity, a sense that things were bound to improve; hope. And then later on a whole variety pack of pharmaceuticals.

I think it was Camus who said the ultimate philosophical question is whether or not one should commit suicide. If all life is for you is suffering and there is not even a glimmer of hope or a chance that things could ever improve, then hell, go for it. Why suffer? Or you could try to find out why you're suffering so much and deal with the root cause. Or you could say a big "fuck you" to society and go live on your own, how you like.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Re: suicide [Re: dblaney]
    #5616618 -

when im old and diseased ill commit
but all my shit works pretty good right now

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Re: suicide *DELETED* [Re: dblaney]
    #5616622 -

Post deleted by soulcircus

Reason for deletion: .


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Re: suicide [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5616638 -

OldWoodSpecter said:
DoctorJ said:
several times.


1. what made you? (if its not a sicret)
2. what made you go on?


1. a woman, of course
2. she's not the boss of me!

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Re: suicide [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5616890 -

Every day..

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Re: suicide [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5617347 -

Once I hit the bottom of the well, philosophically, I thought about it all the time. It's dark down there. Cold, lonely, and miserable. I was facsinated with nothingness and it's ultimate expression, death.

But now, I light my farts on fire to create some light and converse with the brick walls. :sun:

"There is but one truly serious philosophical problem, and that is suicide. Judging whether life is or is not worth living amounts to answering the fundamental question of philosophy. All the rest — whether or not the world has three dimensions, whether the mind has nine or twelve categories — comes afterward. These are games; one must first answer." -- Albert Camus

Edited by MushmanTheManic (05/11/06 02:17 PM)

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Re: suicide [Re: dblaney]
    #5617398 -

dblaney said:
If all life is for you is suffering and there is not even a glimmer of hope or a chance that things could ever improve, then hell, go for it. Why suffer? Or you could try to find out why you're suffering so much and deal with the root cause. Or you could say a big "fuck you" to society and go live on your own, how you like.


I like how this is stated.

I've thought about suicide alot in the past and still think about death every day. I don't think I could ever kill myself though, because I always feel (in times of depression) that changes and hope may be around the next turn. I don't think I could kill my consciousness because there are so many experiences and adventures I think I'd miss out on.

I think that if somebody's life is comprised of suffering without hope then they should be able to kill themselves and nobody should judge them as selfish or whatever else. Isn't it selfish to wish somebody to stick around even though they are in constant pain and would rather leave?

If i ever did kill myself I would write a lengthy note explaining why I did what I did. I'd also write letters to everybody in my life that deserves to know why I did it thanking them for their presence in my life, including some fond memmories and letting them know they should not be sad or angry with me for leaving, just accepting that I didn't want to stay.

I would probably slit my wrists while under the influence of an opiate and wait out the inevitable in the bathtub, leaving as little mess as possible and preserving my appearance for a funeral that my parents would no doubt have for me. A letter addressed to the police station would be mailed out the day before explaining the situation and location of the suicide and giving proper identification and next of kin contact information so nobody close to me would have to find my dead, bloody body in the bathroom.

Have a cheery day.


--------------------

ca'rouse (k-rouz)
intr.v.
To engage in boisterous, drunken merrymaking.

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Re: suicide [Re: TODAY]
    #5617483 -

I feel that if you have no value for your own life, why not use it to help others. Become a marine, feed the homeless, get involved in a jihad(just kidding :smile: or am I? lol), Do something creative with your now worthless life. And if you DO decide to do it, do it in a creative spot, like the front yard of the Whitehouse, wearing a sign saying how you feel about the Bush admin,lol.

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Re: suicide [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5617529 -

yes, twice, very close, long time ago.
I realized, it is better to do something against that what causes depression, even up to death, than to surrender and don't be able to influence anything after. Death will catch you anyways, so make it worth something !


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: suicide [Re: FungusMan]
    #5617553 -

I don't think there would be motivation to love others and their lives if you don't love yourself or your life.


--------------------

ca'rouse (k-rouz)
intr.v.
To engage in boisterous, drunken merrymaking.

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Re: suicide [Re: TODAY]
    #5617588 -

TODAY said:
I don't think there would be motivation to love others and their lives if you don't love yourself or your life.


Then just sell everything you have, go to Iraq, And self detonate on theyre asses. Do something usefull with your death at the least.

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Re: suicide [Re: FungusMan]
    #5617618 -

FungusMan said:
TODAY said:
I don't think there would be motivation to love others and their lives if you don't love yourself or your life.


Then just sell everything you have, go to Iraq, And self detonate on theyre asses. Do something usefull with your death at the least.


On whose asses?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: suicide [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5617639 -

OldWoodSpecter said:
FungusMan said:
TODAY said:
I don't think there would be motivation to love others and their lives if you don't love yourself or your life.


Then just sell everything you have, go to Iraq, And self detonate on theyre asses. Do something usefull with your death at the least.


On whose asses?


Thats up to YOUR descretion,lol. Prefferably the sand niggs....

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Re: suicide [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5617658 -

I've had a couple "cry for help" moments, but I don't I was ever at a point where I was seriously going to go through with it.


--------------------

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Re: suicide [Re: FungusMan]
    #5617675 -

Well first of all you can't find the ones you are looking for, because your enemy is hidden among the people you are NOT trying to kill.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: suicide [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5617708 -

OldWoodSpecter said:
Well first of all you can't find the ones you are looking for, because your enemy is hidden among the people you are NOT trying to kill.


Thats why you adapt theyre tactic and kill em all, let god sort em out. They "religously" think its ok to kill innocents as long as some of the enemy are injured, killed, or halted. But, your taking my posts off topic. I just said do something with your life OR death.

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Re: suicide [Re: FungusMan]
    #5617743 -

FungusMan said:
OldWoodSpecter said:
Well first of all you can't find the ones you are looking for, because your enemy is hidden among the people you are NOT trying to kill.


Thats why you adapt theyre tactic and kill em all, let god sort em out. They "religously" think its ok to kill innocents as long as some of the enemy are injured, killed, or halted. But, your taking my posts off topic. I just said do something with your life OR death.


So the people of iraq first live years under a really opressive government, and just when they get some hope that things are going to be better when it settles down, americans kill them because of that same government??

Really, you blame them for terrorism, yet you would do the same to them?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: suicide [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5617763 -

OldWoodSpecter said:
FungusMan said:
OldWoodSpecter said:
Well first of all you can't find the ones you are looking for, because your enemy is hidden among the people you are NOT trying to kill.



Thats why you adapt theyre tactic and kill em all, let god sort em out. They "religously" think its ok to kill innocents as long as some of the enemy are injured, killed, or halted. But, your taking my posts off topic. I just said do something with your life OR death.


So the people of iraq first live years under a really opressive government, and just when they get some hope that things are going to be better when it settles down, americans kill them because of that same government??

Really, you blame them for terrorism, yet you would do the same to them?

:whocares: :offtopicman: :epenis:

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Re: suicide [Re: FungusMan]
    #5617969 -

It is off-topic, but you engaged him in the discussion, so I think you ought to take it to its conclusion. Don't weasel out of this, he raises a very good point.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Re: suicide [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5618637 -

Yes, once, a few years ago when everything in my life was spinning completely out of control. Fortunately I failed, and I'm still here. I still thought about it afterwards, but I just couldn't do that to my parents.


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

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Re: suicide [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5618686 -

You argue that the Iraqi's were living under a repressive government. We rid them of that, and all of the regimes he kept under his thumb start maiming and killing their own people, in the name of God. We caused MORE harm than we caused hope. Thats why the Iraqi civilians cheer when they see a downed chopper (thanks to www.ogrish.com for footage of said cheering)

Simply, I didn't "ENGAGE" anything. I simply said that if your gonna die by your own hands, do something productive with it. YOU engaged ME, about my views on things. But, your "arguing" with someone that says fuck the Geneva convention. Any other U.S. soldier that is/has been deployed there will say the same.

Why self detonate in an IRAQI crowd? Cause that takes the Terror aspect out of their control. Hell, we should take our captives and behead them poorly while we are at it. Anyway...lets stay away from politics and get back to "suicide" :smile:

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Re: suicide [Re: FungusMan]
    #5619287 -

if anybody feels sad or down, just pm me and maybe we can have talks maybe i can make you feel better


--------------------
huhhhhhhhh

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Re: suicide [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5619827 -

I think about it every day.

I have thought about it every day for years and years.

I would never do it, I just have a fascination with it.


--------------------
Use the Fucking Reply To Feature You Lazy Pieces of Shit!

afoaf said:
Jim, if you were in my city, I would let you fuck my wife.

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Re: suicide [Re: ReefeRnShroomS]
    #5619991 -

ReefeRnShroomS said:
if anybody feels sad or down, just pm me and maybe we can have talks maybe i can make you feel better


That's really sweet, something practical as oposed to most philosophical bablings about how suicide is this or that..


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: suicide [Re: ReefeRnShroomS]
    #5620045 -

ReefeRnShroomS said:
if anybody feels sad or down, just pm me and maybe we can have talks maybe i can make you feel better


:thumbup:


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

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Re: suicide [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5620071 -

hmm, never done it, but thought about it...i still dont think thats negative or bad...
i like to ask my self "why?"...
i think the only situation i would commit a suicide is when the answer turns out to be "its so damn boring out here"...but that never happened...
i guess there is one more thing that can kill me, curiosity!
i dont know what comes after life, and i dont belive in any theories people say, and i SO WANT TO KNOW...and i belive only way i am going to find out is dying...
times i think about death is the times i realy feel alive...
i know if i decide to die i wont be afraid, i will yearn for death.
cuz if i am afraid than somethings wrong...its not how i want it to be...
oh well sorry for my bad english, just trying to share my thoughts, hope you understand...


--------------------

end

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Re: suicide [Re: bugi_bi]
    #5620247 -

I have thought about it briefly, without ever desiring actually doing it. At my most down, which isnt that far down, I thought about it, just to see if it seemed a little more inviting than usual, and if anything it seemed even less logical. I was down because I didnt have something, so I dont see how suicide would have helped that, if anything I wanted more life to try and get things back on track. However, I wasn't depressed or anything. Just my experience.

I have nothing against, and don't believe people who commit suicide are weak or cowards or stupid. I am just sadenned that people can go so low emotionally.

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Re: suicide [Re: soulcircus]
    #5620332 -

soulcircus said:
i was seriously close, i didnt because one day feeling so depressed, teh kind that makes your stomahc wretch and twist and your head kill and you don't know wheather you can go on for another few minutes, i just prayed, i just prayed that if god would listen could he show me that there is something to live for, something so amazing about life i havn't discovered and want to explore, after that prayer i just lay in bed cos i couldn't sleep, and then i became paralysed, and the most intense experience iv ever had happened, whereby after realising i was expereinceing hullucinations and this intense surge of electricity inside of me, i realised this is the stage before astral projection which iv always researched but nevr thought possible. I then controlled myself and entered the atral plane, into a new dimension, unbelievable. God truly had given me a reason to survive i was instantly cured knowing there was more to life than i could possibly know at the time, and i had my whole life to enjoy, its not just some thing we do and when we find out what were just doing there's no point, there's a whole lot more to discover and a huge journey, and you realize, so what to anything, i can enjoy it because i can, and if I'm enjoying things, so what its fun, id rather be having a mad time enjoying the beauty and intricacy of the world, than anything else, because i can.

and no matter how far down into that hole you are that easy to sink into world, remember you can always get out of it, always, and "will" be fine.

if you are on your last legs and don't even believe this, have a go at smoking nn-DMT - and realise, it doesn't matter whats going on, i can always be happy, after a dmt trip i assure you you iwll feel the happiest you've felt in your life for at least 20minutes. its been known to cure the suicidally depressed.




...this is all assuming your contemplating and not just asking...


Thank you for making that post.

All I can think of today, is that shot of Morphine I got when had surgery done on my knee..


--------------------


--------------------
Disclaimer!?

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Re: suicide [Re: Gomp]
    #5620723 -

not yet
quite a few interesting waveforms to resonate with that are not terminal,
but the issue always has 2 sides and should be undecideable.

undecideability rocks


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: suicide [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5620844 -

Death is the end for the human form and most likely for the personality construct also. This is a big deal for the personality. Instinctual drives push for survival at any cost. It amazes me that some people can override this to kill themselves. People often say it's the cowards way out. I think for myself it would take some courage to do myself in, even if I was in great pain. My personality doesn't want to admit that it could be over, ever. (Death will happen of course but never now.)Some people say it's so selfish to the living. But to me that's backwards and the living are so selfish that they don't want others to be free to choose their path. (There's that selfish personality structure at work). People who say I wanted to but couldn't because of what it would do to my mother, dishonor and dis empower themselves IMO. Mother must learn to cope with life and death and if she can't then that could be her personal fear of her own death.

Whether one kills oneself or not one day the self will die and at some future point, a day or a million years, no one will know that you ever lived. The whole thing seems moot.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: suicide [Re: Icelander]
    #5620994 -

there is more to it than not being brave enough
it is terminal

a terminal act.

an effort to be finite
an over emphasis on the value of decision.

what's bravery got to do with it afterwards in any case?
will skilled and gorgeous sexy women come to congratulate you ecstatically with shining elixirs and deep penetration as reward for your bravery after that?

i think not.

there is no reason to insinuate bravery into this, one earns no spoils - possibly you are confusing it with self sacrifice in which you give up you life to fix the dilithium crystals and save the whole enterprise. (no sex and drugs but a long future of music is ensured for somebody at least)

it is a disfunction of thought that connects to dysfunction of language and in turn to dysfunction of all of society that is overly focussed on reducing the living into paper trails.

pick A or B. decide....
I chose undecidability.
especially in this arena.
otherwise coke
or pepsi if there isn't any


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: suicide [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5621032 -

I disagree and I'm not talking about someone thinking I'm brave or anything like that. I'm talking about going against one of the most powerful drives that any living organism has. The SURVIVAL INSTINCT Not many other animals will kill themselves even when in pain. It's not so easy to override this instinct if I use myself as proof.

It would be a great challenge for me even if I thought life not worth living.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: suicide [Re: Icelander]
    #5621146 -

again I must emphasise you are confusing the obvious alarm about confronting a very stupid and destructive act (that may be connected to instinctual drives as well) with some obscure (and mistaken) challenge to bravery.

is there a venn diagramme in you head that puts all instinctual drives in a single category must be brave and must oppose this?


I have heard distinctions made between saving one's own life vs. caring for others. there is no simple distinction, disrespect of life is hugely inappropriate, and all the arguments and challenges that drive one there need to be countered with undecidibility, deconstruct them, atomatize their premises and reintegrate the remains.
get stoned drop out tune in....


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: suicide [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5621547 -

Who's talking about disrespect of life if there is such a thing? There are good enough reasons for killing oneself IMO. But look at all the folks hooked up to tubes and in these hospitals and old folks homes. My mother was terrified of continuing to live the way she was when the doc said she might live 10 more years. She couldn't kill herself and became phobic of germs and all sorts of shit she never though of before. I think it was the terror of wanting to die and the overriding survival instinct at war. She definately wanted out and was tortured until she finally did die. I think you are wrong here or I'm completely misunderstanding your position.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: suicide [Re: Icelander]
    #5621550 -

Are you calling the grieving mothers of children who have committed suicide "selfish"?

I was once told that no internal suffering in this world can be compared to that of a parent whose child has terminated their own life, and I think this rings true - compassion for others should override the selfish needs of the 'suicidee' to end whatever pain they're in. Perhaps you see the grieving mother as being selfish, but this view lacks compassion towards the very concept of parenthood itself. Mothers will be mothers, and they love their babies dearly.

A family lightly associated with mine had a suicide - several years ago their 24 year-old son shot himself, leaving a short note that said he was bored with life, and told his parents to not mourn him. His logic and reasoning was clearly distorted: since HE wasn't mourning his own death, why should his parents. What the fuck was he thinking? His father became a wreck after that, and died two years later of stress-related health complications. The mother took up drinking, and to this day she is an empty shell of a human being. From this experience, and speaking as someone who nearly did go over the edge, most suicides are the result of benighted coping skills, and last but not least, the driving force of the actual act itself is none other than a blatant cognitive distortion, as the prospect of what is left behind after a suicide is completely ignored.

Reality is ultimately governed by the law of Compassion and Karma. Those who kill themselves will not taste liberation. They will taste the womb once again. They will taste the world once again, for they destroyed a couple of sparks who bathed them, clothed them, loved them unconditionally.

If an ailing octogenerian wishes to retire from life in every sense of the word, more power to him. But there is nothing more hopeless and uncompassionate in this world than a youth who terminates their own life as a result of a severely myopic worldview.

I see what you're getting at, but not every suicide is full of resigned existential wisdom. Most, especially among young people, are just outright stupid and selfish.

What would Jesus do? He would have compassion for the mother, and mourn the ignorance of the son (or daughter, but demographically it's mostly young men who kill themselves). The last thing he would do is tell the mother to get over it or insinuite that her grief is the result of selfish reasoning.

Ironically, after my own suicide attempt, I had a pseudo-vision - a vivid dream of my parents ruined and skeletized in inner torment. They were thin like feathers and frail like collected dust. With God (and the very helpful compassion of a Shroomerite), I over-came the self-centered thought distortions that occur almost mechanically as a reaction to inner pain.

Eventually I came to learn that all mental suffering is egoic. The closer to God I became, the more meaningless my own needs became. These days I'm living ecstatically in Spirit.

Suicide is in many ways a survival mechanism - mainly the survival of contention. It would seem that many suicides kill themselves to avoid unhappiness, preferring non-existence over pain.

I'm thinking larger than that.

I'm thinking about the survival of the spirit, and for the spirit to survive the spirit must enslave itself in Love and Compassion. Life got someone down?

Tough it out, I say.

Because the Selfless needs of the parent outweigh the Selfish needs of the child.

And selflessness is the very hallmark of parenthood.

Peace.


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

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Re: suicide [Re: Basilides]
    #5621700 -

to die would be one hell of an adventure.

we spend our entire lifes preparing for it.....

but suicide, imo, is not really death.. more of an ego death which leads to actual death .. aka the cheaters way out.


--------------------
"I only ever hope to reach equilibrium, in Nature's matrix, in line with the meridian" ~ Jehst

:sun: "...and I know that I have to keep breathing, as tomorrow the sun will rise, who knows what the tide will bring?" :sun:

Free Spore Ring Europe
Send any spare spore prints you might have and help the distribution :grin:

Open Source. Freedom.  GNU/Linux

Addicting is not a word.

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Re: suicide [Re: Basilides]
    #5621861 -

Are you calling the grieving mothers of children who have committed suicide "selfish"?

Indeed I am by the very definition of the word. If you bring someone into this world (give them the gift of life) then it's a gift and you have no right to demand anything from them; or it's not a gift and you give them no choice in the matter as they never asked to be born. How come you can't get that? It's SELFISH. Define that word. It means my feelings and wants are more important than yours. How blind and consumed by cultural programming IMO. Why are you so bent on having others do your bidding? Leave others the fuck alone and take care of you own life.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (05/12/06 05:06 PM)

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Re: suicide [Re: Icelander]
    #5621897 -

There should be a requirement to eat 7 grams of mushrooms before you do it, always thought that would do the trick lol.

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Re: suicide [Re: Icelander]
    #5621906 -

the cloak of ego can be stretched over any number of moments, but the monkey that can hold the knife is no more entitled to his opinion than the 3 second one which came before or the 3 second one which may follow.

the injustice is that one 3 second monkey can kill off all subsequent ones. This is dysfunction, nothing more than error. An effort to take what is not possessable.

we only live 3 seconds. that we imagine we are more than that is absurd. That we might assume our limited scope of vision is all encompassing is outrageous (how in 3 seconds can the whole idea of life be addressed!?!?). this is where the respect of life is violated, and judgement fails.

the memory traces of a stream of consciousness produce a strong illusion that we are living a long time. but our time is very short and each of us is equal in this short time.

why would some among us be more entitled than others to cut the process, or to imagine it was a good thing.

I am not saying that the prospect of sufferring for 5 years must be swallowed with impunity, palliative cases are different than what this thread is really about.

Normally I try to keep to bumper sticker comments, but having lost a brother to this process I am, we are, all unwilling to just let it pass.

I am certain that he, most of him, would have preferred to argue with me about this than to be out of the picture.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: suicide [Re: Cepheus]
    #5621913 -

aManEater said:
to die would be one hell of an adventure.



that is an unfortunate speculation.
or the echoing of words that actually mean something else.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: suicide [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5621956 -

So you choose to be selfish. I'm not even saying that in a negative sense. Your feelings are just more important and your perspective on life is more important to you than anothers.

While I acknowledge your sadness and feelings of loss over your brother that in does not change my view on this.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: suicide [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5621958 -

redgreenvines said:
aManEater said:
to die would be one hell of an adventure.



that is an unfortunate speculation.
or the echoing of words that actually mean something else.


Please explain your comments.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (05/12/06 05:30 PM)

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Re: suicide [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5621998 -

OldWoodSpecter said:
ReefeRnShroomS said:
if anybody feels sad or down, just pm me and maybe we can have talks maybe i can make you feel better


That's really sweet, something practical as oposed to most philosophical bablings about how suicide is this or that..


This is the P&S forum, designed for discussion of these issues.:tongue:
If advice is wanted then the Physical and Mental forum would be appropriate.

I do not babble, I pontificate.  :crankey:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: suicide [Re: Basilides]
    #5622042 -

suicide is not selfish

wanting another to stay on the earthly plane when that person is in constant pain is selfish.

people who cry about death have no faith.

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Re: suicide [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5622087 -

Doc we don't often agree but I'm with you on this one. :thumbup: I do think that morning may be a necessary thing. Sadness at the death of someone we love is understandable. There may be other ways that do not require sadness though.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (05/12/06 06:14 PM)

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Re: suicide [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5622107 -

I have attempted suicide several times......for several different reasons.

(see the "My Path" link in my sig for the whole sad story)


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future

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Re: suicide [Re: niteowl]
    #5622154 -

Wow! Right on and good for you.

Listen up here. I'm not advocating suicide for anyone. I'm saying everyone has the right to choose and in the end it's nobody else's business. I love it when people can work out this stuff. It's not easy and also takes great courage.  :thumbup: :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: suicide [Re: Icelander]
    #5622616 -

Icelander said:
So you choose to be selfish. I'm not even saying that in a negative sense. Your feelings are just more important and your perspective on life is more important to you than anothers.

While I acknowledge your sadness and feelings of loss over your brother that in does not change my view on this.


not a single mention of the 3 second monkey self that mistakenly believes he knows something.

in particular that the 3 second hollow man might know enough to merit making a decision that will terminate the lives of his own progeny selves in the same body.

instead, you are latching onto the more familiar illusion of self model and assuming I am there too and being selfish.

my comment has gone clear out of your expected range.
to understand what I am talking about,

refocus
see what you are
what we all are.
we are brief events in a stream of consciousness.
each one of these events has the custody for the whole stream.

see that? yes? then while seeing it look at this discussion,

so much talk about ego loss and very little consistent view.

As for alluding to the great ride of death, one must have eyes to see that, maybe one in a million has eyes to see that, this is not a guaranteed frontier to consider.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: suicide [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5622677 -

I know nothing about this 3 second monkey man. :grin: I couldn't relate to what you are saying so I didn't respond to it. And now that you've explained it I still don't know what it has to do with anything here.

Each individual can choose how to live. I may not like it or agree but unless they plan on doing me physical harm then it's not my place to try and force them to be other than they choose. What's so hard to understand here?

You have certain views on what life means. Are you so arrogant to think you are certainly correct? Choose for yourself because you cannot know for another what is a correct path. Or what purpose or designs life has.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: suicide [Re: Icelander]
    #5622985 -

arrogant?

I talk about how cosnciousness seems to float alomg like a stream.
during the floating many impressions occur, sensations and memory.
they resonate for a second or so and we form our response expression. this can cycle as quickly as once every 3 seconds

so we proceed in the stream like beads on a rosary one self aftr another in pulses of about 3 seocnds each.
each bead has the ability to decide for the whole stream - for all that follow in the stream, and each bead is the recipient of "karma" imparted by earlier bead decisions.

if you kill yourself you never get that "benefit or satisfaction" all that is done is a stream ending, and countless others who would have, now may not follow.

it is hugely narcisistic to identify with a self that lives longer than 3 seconds.

none do. the chain runs through time, and to identify with that is to leave the context of the moment.

the stream contains all the beads or selves, but it is not the self it is just a movie or sequence in time/space.

these are the most naked metaphors I can draw together to describe/suggest what I always see that we are.

I am always surprised that so few others do as well.

as for after death beads or monkeys of selfs, I have met none who have any convincing comments or metaphors.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: suicide [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5623179 -

Life is a gift.


At some point in your life you felt happy. Even if it was for one fleating moment........


All of us are in conjecture about this issue because:

"Dead men tell no tales"


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

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Re: suicide [Re: Icelander]
    #5623443 -

Icelander said:
Are you calling the grieving mothers of children who have committed suicide "selfish"?

Indeed I am by the very definition of the word. If you bring someone into this world (give them the gift of life) then it's a gift and you have no right to demand anything from them; or it's not a gift and you give them no choice in the matter as they never asked to be born. How come you can't get that? It's SELFISH. Define that word. It means my feelings and wants are more important than yours. How blind and consumed by cultural programming IMO. Why are you so bent on having others do your bidding? Leave others the fuck alone and take care of you own life.


That still doesn't change that causing others pain is wrong.


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

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Re: suicide [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5623461 -

It is my opinion that suicide is not amoral. I believe that any action that causes pain in others is selfish, sinful, and a karmatic demerit.


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

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Re: suicide [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5623843 -

redgreenvines said:
aManEater said:
to die would be one hell of an adventure.



that is an unfortunate speculation.
or the echoing of words that actually mean something else.


Universal equilibrium. A stateless balance. sounds like an adventure to me.


--------------------
"I only ever hope to reach equilibrium, in Nature's matrix, in line with the meridian" ~ Jehst

:sun: "...and I know that I have to keep breathing, as tomorrow the sun will rise, who knows what the tide will bring?" :sun:

Free Spore Ring Europe
Send any spare spore prints you might have and help the distribution :grin:

Open Source. Freedom.  GNU/Linux

Addicting is not a word.

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Re: suicide [Re: Basilides]
    #5624227 -

Basilides said:
Icelander said:
Are you calling the grieving mothers of children who have committed suicide "selfish"?

Indeed I am by the very definition of the word. If you bring someone into this world (give them the gift of life) then it's a gift and you have no right to demand anything from them; or it's not a gift and you give them no choice in the matter as they never asked to be born. How come you can't get that? It's SELFISH. Define that word. It means my feelings and wants are more important than yours. How blind and consumed by cultural programming IMO. Why are you so bent on having others do your bidding? Leave others the fuck alone and take care of you own life.


That still doesn't change that causing others pain is wrong.


Hey Mister black and white. Your posts hurt me. You must stop now and agree with me. Your views are the cause of my pain. I am not doing this to myself you are. Your verbal violence towards me is destructive to my welbeing. :tongue:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: suicide [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5624249 -

I get you but it means nothing to this debate IMO. Why don't you tell life not to kill anyone for these same reasons? What about the baby born to starve in Africa or the child tortured to death by the parents. My point being that death is the end result always and life isn't always worth living. You can choose to stay alive any way you wish and in the end you will be as dead as if you had committed suicide. For the person that chooses other than you, you are not able to judge or know the purpose or value of their acts. It's not your business. Taking care of yourself is full time work.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: suicide [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5624333 -

OldWoodSpecter said:
Redstorm said:
Earlier this year I was very depressed and was very, very close to doing it.


so what was your plan? (I mean the style of execution)


Lots and lots of pills.

I didn't do it because:

1. I was too afraid.
2. I didn't want my roommate to have to find my body.

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Re: suicide [Re: Icelander]
    #5624353 -

in the previous post you indicate discomfort with black and white.
then you indicate that death is the end result of life. and try to make this a black and white issue in which the briefest whim of a passenger in the stream of consciousness should have the right to terminate the entire stream; and that nature which is the stream should have no greater right than the puny passenger in that stream.


This is patently incorrect.

Life is not something that becomes death, it is not a duality. death is merely the end of a particular stream, life is what happens all along the stream, including but not limited to the sequence of self moments that ride in that stream.

In no way is death (the little process of ending the stream) a thing that can be measured with life (which is the totality of the stream and an interactive person as well), nor is it a measure of life or the end result of life, as living has many interactive impacts with other streams and physical conditions all along its endurance.

I think you have to forget everything you are sure of - unlearn everything, and begin to live with more channels open to understand what I am really talking about here:

I am talking about the simplest thing. Against that simple thing other issues become more clear in their own light, not necessarily in words.


(legally I think a person should have the right to termination of the body, and angels of mercy (loving murderers) need to be treated severely but fairly with each case taken on its merit. What I am most uncomfortable with is casual flirtation with suicide and casual maturity about it - That is an utterly phoney posture)


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: suicide [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5624456 -

I think a person should have the right to termination of the body,

That's what I'm saying. :thumbup:

No matter what I think or what you think it's up to each person to reason it out for themselves. I think it's unwise to look at suicide casually and I don't but I'm not going to try and guilt trip someone else from that road by lying to them.  Why? Because I know that I'm not really able to judge the merits of someone choosing a path for themselves that (in reality) doesn't really harm anyone else. I refuse to abdicate responsibility for myself and say someones personal choices or words can make me feel ANYTHING I don't personally choose to feel.

Life is a very interesting thing. I don't know what it means and if it's precious or not. I'm not going to pretend I'm the guy who knows. I really have a problem personally with people who try and guilt trip others into robot like behavior over ANY issue, just so they can feel like they have control of their lives. It's patent nonsense and unskillful and destructive to non robotic behavior. What good is staying alive if you don't make your own decisions and choices based on what you want? Living for someone else (so they won't feel something or other) isn't really living at all IMO.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: suicide [Re: Icelander]
    #5624861 -

hate to confuse the issue, a person should have the right, legally. But I know of no person who has adequate insight to measure the impact for themselves or others fairly.

I am for less big brother governmental intereferrence in the matter, but I am for more honest careful understanding of the human condition - and no phoney baloney comments about life after death when people really just don't have any clue. Bravado issues about it are the MOST MISGUIDED and MISGUIDING.

Some phoney baloney mysticism suggests that after death you get some prize. that's sick stuff told to under educated suicide bombers, and charity based religious regimes.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: suicide [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5624870 -

But I know of no person who has adequate insight to measure the impact for themselves or others fairly.

My point exactly, you don't know if anyone else has adequate insight. That's why it's not your business. You can choose for yourself however.

As far as the pie in the sky stuff. I totally agree.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: suicide [Re: Icelander]
    #5625049 -

me 2
then


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: suicide [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5625115 -

I have been involved in this discussion quite a few times here. It's always passionate on both ends and gets tons of posts. People are definitely interested in the subject. Peace out.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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