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Invisiblequestion_for_joo
i'm left. youall can bite me
Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 1,591
suicide
    #2592198 - 04/22/04 09:04 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I don't understand why people are so quick to judge and condemn those who've committed suicide. People say well they probably went to hell just for that. Suicide is about mercy, wanting to end suffering. We don't have the right to do it but other people don't have the right to fuck with people like they do. Things are fair in the end I think. People before they commit suicide feel sad and they say i'm sorry that i'm not stronger. They ask forgiveness for themselves. I believe God forgives those who take their own life. I think he grants forgiveness whenever it is asked, and the challenge is only to ask it.


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youi was a pig informatnt so you can go fuckyoruselfs


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Offlineabhi
Why not?
Female User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 10/11/03
Posts: 16,400
Loc: in some small dive
Last seen: 6 months, 11 days
Re: suicide [Re: question_for_joo]
    #2592241 - 04/22/04 09:17 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I think that suicide is something that takes a lot of ...courage... to do. I would never be strong enough to do it. People judge suicide too quickly. Saying things like "too bad those people are so crazy in the head" and stuff like that. It always bugs me when I hear people talking about suicide that way.


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Offlineangryjslice
now with 20%more anger
Male

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 10/29/03
Posts: 916
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
Re: suicide [Re: question_for_joo]
    #2592290 - 04/22/04 09:28 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

heres two quotes

"Suicide often arises not from a hatred of life, but from a lust for it, a desire for things to be otherwise, for life to be full when it appears not to be. "
- Stephen Levine

"Sometimes I wonder if suicides aren't in fact sad guardians of the meaning of life."
-Havel

~JSLice~


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OfflineFrog
Warrior
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Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 4,284
Loc: The Zero Point Field
Last seen: 9 years, 6 months
Re: suicide [Re: question_for_joo]
    #2592296 - 04/22/04 09:29 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I think God forgives suicide, too. But I also think that suicide is an easy way out. Life is hard, at times, and there's lots of stuff to figure out. Might as well learn it now or we'll be back.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: suicide [Re: question_for_joo]
    #2592378 - 04/22/04 09:43 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Suicide is for those too pussy to put up with life.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Invisiblepsyka
Praetorian
 User Gallery

Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 1,652
Re: suicide [Re: Frog]
    #2592405 - 04/22/04 09:46 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

You will miss out on a lot of lessons and have to wait longer for the mind to shed itself from its current limitations. The process of evolution will have been delayed. The entire expirence is quite necessary, despite what you think you believe at that moment ultimate selfishness.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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Invisible2Experimental
Male User Gallery
Registered: 01/15/03
Posts: 18,073
Re: suicide [Re: Sclorch]
    #2592647 - 04/22/04 10:56 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Chill out man, you, or me, will never be able to fully understand the pain people who commit suicide are in. Do not be so quick to dish out comments as those.


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OfflineFrog
Warrior
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Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 4,284
Loc: The Zero Point Field
Last seen: 9 years, 6 months
Re: suicide [Re: 2Experimental]
    #2592776 - 04/22/04 11:31 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Well, Sclorch may have phrased it badly, but I agree, suicide is for the weak. But also yes, I agree, that those who commit suicide are in a lot of pain. Still, it's the easy way out. It's harder to work on the issues that cause one to feel like commit suicide in the first place. And karma, ya know.


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: suicide [Re: 2Experimental]
    #2593237 - 04/23/04 01:37 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

2Experimental said:
Chill out man, you, or me, will never be able to fully understand the pain people who commit suicide are in. Do not be so quick to dish out comments as those.




As if I speak without personal experience... I dish out with plenty of discretion.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Offlinefaelr
the darkestlight

Registered: 04/12/04
Posts: 138
Loc: st.louis
Last seen: 18 years, 2 months
Re: suicide [Re: question_for_joo]
    #2593364 - 04/23/04 02:12 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

question_for_joo said:
I don't understand why people are so quick to judge and condemn those who've committed suicide. People say well they probably went to hell just for that. Suicide is about mercy, wanting to end suffering. We don't have the right to do it but other people don't have the right to fuck with people like they do. Things are fair in the end I think. People before they commit suicide feel sad and they say i'm sorry that i'm not stronger. They ask forgiveness for themselves. I believe God forgives those who take their own life. I think he grants forgiveness whenever it is asked, and the challenge is only to ask it.



i don't think that god forgives ones who take their own life.
for one, they're weak, if anything at all this just proves nature right. only the strong will survive.
and before anyone gets all high and mighty, i've had 2 suicide cases in my family and one friend, that have given up on life.
these little fucks are all self-absorbed thinking that they have the worst life ever. fuck that!
i've had it bad and so has everyone else. what make them so special? why should i feel compassion for someone, who most likely had many more years ahead of themselves, that gives up on life so quickly.
there are to many people in this world that take life for granted and those that say fuck it and give up, should go to hell, if there is ever a place.

i'll seldom show any compassion for anyone who gives up on anything, especially with regards to life.


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where i walk, i walk alone. when i fight, i fight alone. i am no one and i am nothing. yet all is that i am.


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OfflineFrog
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Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 4,284
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Re: suicide [Re: faelr]
    #2593396 - 04/23/04 02:22 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Everyone deserves compassion, especially those who commit suicide.

Yes, it may be weak. Yes, they may be giving up for reasons not as strong as our reasons to keep living, but they still deserve compassion.

Keep in mind...

They have to plan their own demise. Think on that. Knowing that they are doing something to stop their own heart. In a sense, that takes a certain type of courage.

And think on their pain. They deserve compassion that they felt that the pain that existed in their minds could not be overcome by any deed they could personally perform.

Personally, I think that the courage to take your life is second-best to deciding to take life on, but that's just me, and I'm my own worst competition.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Offlinefaelr
the darkestlight

Registered: 04/12/04
Posts: 138
Loc: st.louis
Last seen: 18 years, 2 months
Re: suicide [Re: Frog]
    #2593419 - 04/23/04 02:30 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

everyone one deserves compassion, yes i'll agree to that.
but, i don't believe it was their souls choice to make that decision.
i think sometimes the mind betrays the soul.


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where i walk, i walk alone. when i fight, i fight alone. i am no one and i am nothing. yet all is that i am.


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InvisibletrendalM
J♠
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,802
Loc: Ontario, Canada Flag
Re: suicide [Re: question_for_joo]
    #2593448 - 04/23/04 02:37 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I don't think people who commit suicide are doing something evil. They're just giving up.  :frown:


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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OfflineFrog
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Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 4,284
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Re: suicide [Re: faelr]
    #2593458 - 04/23/04 02:39 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I would agree with you, faelr. The soul is limited in what it can achieve by what these human bodies have been through.

Here's what I really like about what you said: I have had a difficult time telling the difference between the spirit, the mind, the body, and the soul.

You have shown me, in this discussion tonight, the difference between the mind and the soul. Thank you for that.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Offlinefaelr
the darkestlight

Registered: 04/12/04
Posts: 138
Loc: st.louis
Last seen: 18 years, 2 months
Re: suicide [Re: Frog]
    #2593472 - 04/23/04 02:43 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

thanx!
i try to make do with what little help i can provide!:lol:


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where i walk, i walk alone. when i fight, i fight alone. i am no one and i am nothing. yet all is that i am.


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Invisiblebert
bodhi

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2,819
Loc: state
Re: suicide [Re: faelr]
    #2593501 - 04/23/04 02:54 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I think suicide is unfortunate unless the person has chronic and incurable pain that severely lowers their quality of living. There is no such thing as a soul, the mind is you. Personally, suicide appears to be the ultimate act of free will. They are more free than the rest of us...not that I condone suicide, but that's just the emotional side of me speaking.


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Persons denying the existence of robots may be robots themselves.


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Offlinefaelr
the darkestlight

Registered: 04/12/04
Posts: 138
Loc: st.louis
Last seen: 18 years, 2 months
Re: suicide [Re: bert]
    #2593515 - 04/23/04 03:00 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

thats your belief.
i have my own.
like i say so many times...agree to disagree?:smirk:


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where i walk, i walk alone. when i fight, i fight alone. i am no one and i am nothing. yet all is that i am.


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Invisiblebert
bodhi

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2,819
Loc: state
Re: suicide [Re: faelr]
    #2593525 - 04/23/04 03:08 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Well, we don't disagree except about the reasons behind the unacceptability of suicide.


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Persons denying the existence of robots may be robots themselves.


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Offlinefaelr
the darkestlight

Registered: 04/12/04
Posts: 138
Loc: st.louis
Last seen: 18 years, 2 months
Re: suicide [Re: bert]
    #2593539 - 04/23/04 03:14 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

can't argue with that!


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where i walk, i walk alone. when i fight, i fight alone. i am no one and i am nothing. yet all is that i am.


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InvisibleJellric
altered statesman

Registered: 11/08/98
Posts: 2,261
Loc: non-local
Re: suicide [Re: question_for_joo]
    #2593661 - 04/23/04 04:11 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Well here's my two coppers: One of the cliche's bandied about is "he was weak". But what is weak is an equation made of two things: the strength of the person plus whatever they had to bear. People seem to always leave out the last part of the equation. Sure if you are a 175 lb. man and I throw a 60 lb. weight on you, you can probably take it, but what about a 150 lb. weight??

Should we pretend that every person's burden is the same as every others? What is a challenge to one person could be nothing to another person! Could YOU bear the weight that the suicide bore RELATIVE to you? Good lord, they overcame the most basic instinct of ALL - to preserve life- is that easy??

Suicide is not the easy way out. It is the EASIER way out. There's nothing easy about it.
At the same time I won't hold out suicides as examples of courage.


--------------------
I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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OfflineBleaK
paradox
Registered: 06/24/02
Posts: 1,583
Last seen: 8 years, 7 months
Re: suicide [Re: faelr]
    #2593664 - 04/23/04 04:13 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

faelr said:
Quote:

question_for_joo said:
I don't understand why people are so quick to judge and condemn those who've committed suicide. People say well they probably went to hell just for that. Suicide is about mercy, wanting to end suffering. We don't have the right to do it but other people don't have the right to fuck with people like they do. Things are fair in the end I think. People before they commit suicide feel sad and they say i'm sorry that i'm not stronger. They ask forgiveness for themselves. I believe God forgives those who take their own life. I think he grants forgiveness whenever it is asked, and the challenge is only to ask it.





i don't think that god forgives ones who take their own life.
for one, they're weak, if anything at all this just proves nature right. only the strong will survive.
and before anyone gets all high and mighty, i've had 2 suicide cases in my family and one friend, that have given up on life.
these little fucks are all self-absorbed thinking that they have the worst life ever. fuck that!
i've had it bad and so has everyone else. what make them so special? why should i feel compassion for someone, who most likely had many more years ahead of themselves, that gives up on life so quickly.
there are to many people in this world that take life for granted and those that say fuck it and give up, should go to hell, if there is ever a place.

i'll seldom show any compassion for anyone who gives up on anything, especially with regards to life.




i would never expect your compasion to result from my suicide faelr.
i would never kill myself for anyones compasion, its escape.
its trying to make 2+3 fit into 4.


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


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Offlinefaelr
the darkestlight

Registered: 04/12/04
Posts: 138
Loc: st.louis
Last seen: 18 years, 2 months
Re: suicide [Re: Jellric]
    #2593671 - 04/23/04 04:20 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

this discussion doesn't require a grey area. :smirk:


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where i walk, i walk alone. when i fight, i fight alone. i am no one and i am nothing. yet all is that i am.


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Offlinefaelr
the darkestlight

Registered: 04/12/04
Posts: 138
Loc: st.louis
Last seen: 18 years, 2 months
Re: suicide [Re: BleaK]
    #2593687 - 04/23/04 04:31 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

BleaK said:
its trying to make 2+3 fit into 4.



2+3 fit 4!?! hahaha
i don't think it has anything to do with the equation. it's just adding another variable.;)


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where i walk, i walk alone. when i fight, i fight alone. i am no one and i am nothing. yet all is that i am.


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InvisibleJellric
altered statesman

Registered: 11/08/98
Posts: 2,261
Loc: non-local
Re: suicide [Re: faelr]
    #2593690 - 04/23/04 04:35 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Well let me be non-grey. Regardless of your beliefs, ending your life is the Ultimate in irresponsibility. No matter what your belief system, it does not end your pain. In Christian terms you go to Hell, in New Age thought you go to a hellish state followed by a repeat of your last life since life is a school and you repeat the course you failed. In other words, you do not end your pain you don't even get credit for what you endured you go right back through the wringer again.


--------------------
I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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Offlinefaelr
the darkestlight

Registered: 04/12/04
Posts: 138
Loc: st.louis
Last seen: 18 years, 2 months
Re: suicide [Re: Jellric]
    #2593693 - 04/23/04 04:38 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

damn staight! you tell 'em!:lol:


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where i walk, i walk alone. when i fight, i fight alone. i am no one and i am nothing. yet all is that i am.


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InvisibleJellric
altered statesman

Registered: 11/08/98
Posts: 2,261
Loc: non-local
Re: suicide [Re: faelr]
    #2593701 - 04/23/04 04:47 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Yeah, it is pretty funny!  :lol: :rolleyes:


--------------------
I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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OfflineCather
journeyman
Registered: 02/23/04
Posts: 91
Last seen: 16 years, 10 months
Re: suicide [Re: question_for_joo]
    #2593726 - 04/23/04 05:03 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Well i have a great life and really like it . i have no worries at all but i still have an urge to commit suicide very often . Its not cos my life is so bad but because i want to know what being dead is like , i know that my death will be suicide already , as soon as i get bored .


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InvisibleJellric
altered statesman

Registered: 11/08/98
Posts: 2,261
Loc: non-local
Re: suicide [Re: Cather]
    #2593743 - 04/23/04 05:11 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Here is a link about someone who committed suicide and how they perceived their experience:
This person says you can contact them if you really need to.

http://www.ndeweb.com/Suic01.htm


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I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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OfflineCather
journeyman
Registered: 02/23/04
Posts: 91
Last seen: 16 years, 10 months
Re: suicide [Re: Jellric]
    #2593776 - 04/23/04 05:23 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Thanks for the link but im not depressed . The doctors tell me i am but i dont think i am , im just curious . It seems to me that death is the last great adventure left and i am impatient to start my adventure :smile:


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InvisibleRavus
Not an EggshellWalker
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
Re: suicide [Re: Cather]
    #2593835 - 04/23/04 05:49 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Suicide happens when it seems more pleasant to die than continue living. Organizing people into one group, all those that commit suicide, would be foolish though. Not all of them are weak, for some of them might have done it because otherwise they would've killed someone; not all of them have courage, as they might've taken the cyanide pill than immediately tried to live again, unthinking of the consequences. It's a broad broad category of people that commit suicide, from anguished teenagers to tired old men to chronic disease patients to simply stresed out workers, and though often counterproductive, suicide is not an end, but rather a means to escape and return to the astral planes where they may have more piece of mind.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibleJellric
altered statesman

Registered: 11/08/98
Posts: 2,261
Loc: non-local
Re: suicide [Re: Ravus]
    #2593848 - 04/23/04 06:01 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I don't mean to be flippant at all, but I've always wondered about those people who attempted suicide by jumping from a great height. What if you changed your mind on the way down?? Damn that would suck.


--------------------
I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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InvisibleRavus
Not an EggshellWalker
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Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
Re: suicide [Re: Jellric]
    #2593855 - 04/23/04 06:11 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

That's why suicide while drunk is much easier. No thought involved if you're drunk enough.

Just wake up the next morning on another plane with a hangover, thinking, What the hell did I do last night?

Though a very high percentage of suicides do involve alcohol, I think my health teacher said that before so I took it with a grain of salt, but I wouldn't be surprised. I believe it was between 40 and 60% of suicides.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineFrog
Warrior
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Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 4,284
Loc: The Zero Point Field
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Re: suicide [Re: Ravus]
    #2594167 - 04/23/04 10:47 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Ravus and Jell...that was a pretty funny conversation about suicide there at the end.  :grin:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Offlineangryjslice
now with 20%more anger
Male

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 10/29/03
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Re: suicide [Re: Frog]
    #2594369 - 04/23/04 12:14 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

>>suicide appears to be the ultimate act of free will

i tend to agree with this statement.

but coming from a stand point of someone who has considered it and attempted it several times during a darker time of my life, i have to say that getting past suicide alive really is an amazing experience, and much more rewarding than excercising said free will. i remember my lowest low, after i had been arrested and my family rejected me, and several friends of mine ending up in the hospital by my hand, i was just at a complete depression. not like feeling depressed, but the lowness and sadness just encompassed me, and i kept getting sadder and slower, lower than i could have ever imagined you could go, and i considered killing myself, and something in my brain just snapped, and i started laughing histarically. and for the first time in my life i felt enlightenment. i think i just finally realized how rediculous this reality is, and how i effected the love of the people around me. not saying that they all loved me, but i saw how much i needed to love all of them, and suddenly had an overwelming love of life, because of this. i am a much better person now. this was along long time ago.

Quote:

Sclorch said:
Suicide is for those too pussy to put up with life




maybe they are couragous enough to know when there own time is.

"Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
the courage to change the things i can,
and the wisdom to know when to give up and end it all."
-Jill Heather

"People believe lots of lies on this planet, that's why most of them haven't committed suicide yet."
-Shadowdemon

"Men are never convinced of your reasons, of your sincerity, of the seriousness of your sufferings, except by your death. So long as you are alive, your case is doubtful; you have a right only to your skepticism."
-Albert Camus

"He who does not accept and respect those who want to reject life does not truly accept and respect life itself."
-Thomas Szasz


~JSlice~


--------------------


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Invisiblebert
bodhi

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2,819
Loc: state
Re: suicide [Re: Jellric]
    #2594389 - 04/23/04 12:24 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Jellric said:
Regardless of your beliefs, ending your life is the Ultimate in irresponsibility. No matter what your belief system, it does not end your pain. In Christian terms you go to Hell, in New Age thought you go to a hellish state followed by a repeat of your last life since life is a school and you repeat the course you failed. In other words, you do not end your pain you don't even get credit for what you endured you go right back through the wringer again.




Basically you are trying to back up the immorality of suicide through Christianity and 'New Age' beliefs of which you obviously know nothing of. Have you heard of Existentialism? Do you realize that not everyone in the world is religious? Can you imagine a reality free from God's punishment? Do you have anything to back up your claims? Probably not, I'm guessing you have never been to hell.


--------------------
Persons denying the existence of robots may be robots themselves.


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InvisibleJellric
altered statesman

Registered: 11/08/98
Posts: 2,261
Loc: non-local
Re: suicide [Re: bert]
    #2594674 - 04/23/04 01:57 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

:yawn:


--------------------
I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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InvisibleRevelation

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Registered: 08/04/01
Posts: 6,135
Loc: heart cave
Re: suicide [Re: faelr]
    #2594818 - 04/23/04 02:44 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Okay, there are ways to end your life which might not be classed as suicide. Pointing a gun at a police officer (in the states at least), being careless while crossing the road, smoking etc etc. You say that god does not forgive people who commit suicide. Where does God draw the line?


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Offlinefaelr
the darkestlight

Registered: 04/12/04
Posts: 138
Loc: st.louis
Last seen: 18 years, 2 months
Re: suicide [Re: Revelation]
    #2594914 - 04/23/04 03:09 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Revelation said:
Okay, there are ways to end your life which might not be classed as suicide.  Pointing a gun at a police officer (in the states at least), being careless while crossing the road, smoking etc etc.  You say that god does not forgive people who commit suicide.  Where does God draw the line?



i know someone who commited suicide by pulling a gun out at a cop.
that was in the letter!:lol: i'm laughing now......he wasn't that close. mean but true.


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where i walk, i walk alone. when i fight, i fight alone. i am no one and i am nothing. yet all is that i am.


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Offlinefaelr
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Re: suicide [Re: bert]
    #2594952 - 04/23/04 03:20 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

bert said:
Quote:

Jellric said:
Regardless of your beliefs, ending your life is the Ultimate in irresponsibility. No matter what your belief system, it does not end your pain. In Christian terms you go to Hell, in New Age thought you go to a hellish state followed by a repeat of your last life since life is a school and you repeat the course you failed.  In other words, you do not end your pain you don't even get credit for what you endured you go right back through the wringer again.





Basically you are trying to back up the immorality of suicide through Christianity and 'New Age' beliefs of which you obviously know nothing of.  Have you heard of Existentialism?  Do you realize that not everyone in the world is religious?  Can you imagine a reality free from God's punishment?  Do you have anything to back up your claims?  Probably not, I'm guessing you have never been to hell.



  hey that's an unfair statement!:mad2:
i'm guessing your just looking at one side of the coin, when in regards to religion. a world free from god's punishment!?!:smirk:
i don't believe in the biblical god but i can speak for myself when i say, god doesn't punish us we punish ourselves.
  a dark way of looking at your view on god's punishment is, morality, will it still exist if people didn't believe in an after life. in this day and age morals are going down, along with chivalry and honor. can you consciously say that we care about our moral obligations as much as we do. true freedom is doing what you want, but that ancient rule goes, with every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. karma dude :smile:


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Invisiblebert
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Re: suicide [Re: faelr]
    #2595172 - 04/23/04 04:16 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Well that would be all well and good if I believed in absolute morality. Which I don't...what is so shocking about my statement 'a reality free from God's punishment'? I am just perturbed that Jellric was being extremely imprecise in his criticism of suicide. i.e. Bringing into play 'New Age' religion, which doesn't exist in the form that he attempted to invoke for his argument. I do very much agree with you that we punish ourselves, not God. I believe Humanism to be the way to go in order to bring about a non-judgmental and more accepting society. It doesn't help an extremely depressed person to judge them. Whether that be through religious or other means.

Edit: I'll throw up another example. What about going into battle knowing that one will die? That is also a form of suicide, but it is condoned and promoted by society as a whole. It's not as cut and dry as one may be led to believe.


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Edited by bert (04/23/04 04:26 PM)


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: suicide [Re: Jellric]
    #2595340 - 04/23/04 05:01 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

No matter what your belief system, it does not end your pain.

There is no evidence for this other than your say-so.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleJellric
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Re: suicide [Re: Swami]
    #2595804 - 04/23/04 07:44 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I think everyone understands that. Most of what people post here is not personal knowledge.
Such is the nature of this forum.


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InvisibleJellric
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Re: suicide [Re: bert]
    #2595829 - 04/23/04 08:02 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I am just perturbed

Try switching to non-caffeinated coffee. Or meditation perhaps.

Jellric was being extremely imprecise in his criticism of suicide. i.e. Bringing into play 'New Age' religion, which doesn't exist in the form that he attempted to invoke for his argument.

I didn't specify a form of New Age religion. Hopefully most people understand the gist of what I was saying. And that is the fact that the majority of the worlds religions do not support suicide. One can agree or disagree, but it doesn't change that fact.


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Invisiblebert
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Re: suicide [Re: Jellric]
    #2595893 - 04/23/04 08:30 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

You said 'no matter what your belief system'. This makes your statement false whether I agree or disagree.


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Invisible2Experimental
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Re: suicide [Re: Swami]
    #2595907 - 04/23/04 08:34 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

"There is no evidence for this other than your say-so"

Is there any evidence for anything except say so?

kthx please continue the wonderful debate


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Offlinefaelr
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Re: suicide [Re: bert]
    #2595924 - 04/23/04 08:40 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

bert said:
Edit: I'll throw up another example. What about going into battle knowing that one will die? That is also a form of suicide, but it is condoned and promoted by society as a whole. It's not as cut and dry as one may be led to believe.




both examples only show one side of the tale. i know i'm not going into the battlefield because it's a kill or be killed situation....i don't like those odds, they seem wrong for both parties. i think more of an exceptable risk than it is acceptable and with all the anti-war rallies going on these days i'm not sure war is exceptable anymore.

a personal belief of mine is that everything is cut and dry, everything else is an excuse. too many people like to pass the buck these days.


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Invisiblebert
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Re: suicide [Re: faelr]
    #2595951 - 04/23/04 08:51 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Well, you didn't directly answer my example. Also, I don't know why you are using the words 'acceptable' and 'exceptable' interchangeably. Exceptable isn't even a word. Let me put up on last example in an effort to show you that everything isn't cut and dry. Let's say you had to sacrifice your life in order to save that of a loved one. Would you do it? Is suicide unacceptable in every single situation?


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InvisibleJellric
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Re: suicide [Re: bert]
    #2595956 - 04/23/04 08:54 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Okay. 99.99% of the worlds religions and belief systems do not support suicide.

Happy now? :smile:


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Invisiblebert
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Re: suicide [Re: Jellric]
    #2595958 - 04/23/04 08:54 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

:smile:


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Invisible2Experimental
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Re: suicide [Re: bert]
    #2595959 - 04/23/04 08:55 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I think we need to define suicide...'suicide' for a loved one, or a 'cause' i do not consider suicide... suicide is killing yourself for no other reason then your own pain, mental or pysical. that is all IMO


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Offlinefaelr
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Re: suicide [Re: bert]
    #2596070 - 04/23/04 09:38 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

bert said:
Well, you didn't directly answer my example.  Also, I don't know why you are using the words 'acceptable' and 'exceptable' interchangeably.  Exceptable isn't even a word.  Let me put up on last example in an effort to show you that everything isn't cut and dry.  Let's say you had to sacrifice your life in order to save that of a loved one.  Would you do it?  Is suicide unacceptable in every single situation?



you only give one sided views because you only understand half the truth! and your still not adding every variable to the equation. it comes down to specifics. you give none.

i mispelled a word.....who gives a flying fuck!:lol: if you're going to attack my ego, atleast do it in complete sentences!:razz::lol:

why is the person in that situation anyway? how did this situation come about? it's not my place to control someones destiny. if they are destined to die right in front of me, that's their story. also getting shot means that there is a chance you may die and is in no way inevitable.

with suicide death is inevitable and if you survive then hopefully you suffer the consquence of constant humiliation.:lol:

to know the truth properly you must understand both sides of the coin.

loved ones? i walk alone.


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where i walk, i walk alone. when i fight, i fight alone. i am no one and i am nothing. yet all is that i am.


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Offlinefaelr
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Re: suicide [Re: Jellric]
    #2596076 - 04/23/04 09:40 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Jellric said:
Okay. 99.99% of the worlds religions and belief systems do not support suicide.

Happy now? :smile:


anyone remember that cult in san diego that saw some comet and killed themselves!!!:lol::lol:hahhaha:lol
i forgot the details but, i think the men castrated themselves too.:lol:


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Invisiblebert
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Re: suicide [Re: faelr]
    #2596167 - 04/23/04 10:21 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I do write in complete sentences. I am done here anyways. If you want to humiliate suicide victims. Fine. However, that is by no means a healthy way to deal with a depressed person who is mentally unstable. In fact, degrading them about their suicide experience will most likely lead to even more mental pain and probably another suicide attempt. I only brought up your word usage/spelling because I couldn't understand the sentence you were trying to convey.


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Offlinefaelr
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Re: suicide [Re: bert]
    #2596192 - 04/23/04 10:30 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

the only victims of suicide are the one who are still here.


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OfflineBleaK
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Re: suicide [Re: bert]
    #2596734 - 04/24/04 01:11 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

bert said:
I do write in complete sentences. I am done here anyways. If you want to humiliate suicide victims. Fine. However, that is by no means a healthy way to deal with a depressed person who is mentally unstable. In fact, degrading them about their suicide experience will most likely lead to even more mental pain and probably another suicide attempt. I only brought up your word usage/spelling because I couldn't understand the sentence you were trying to convey.




health and mental stability are by no means static terms. my definition of either will differ from yours.


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"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


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OfflineFrog
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Re: suicide [Re: bert]
    #2596901 - 04/24/04 01:56 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I don't think anyone here was specifically downgrading or humiliating any would-be victims of suicide. I think most of us agree that committing suicide is a weak way of dealing with life's problems. Well, some of us agreed on that, anyways.

If I came up on a survivor of a suicide attempt, I wouldn't humiliate him/her. They need encouragement, support, and a damned good counselor in order to develop the strength they need in order to maneuver life. Life ain't easy.

I had an experience in my life where I felt like committing suicide back in my late 20s, early 30s. I got into some serious counseling after that. Suicide is not an answer. And yes, it takes a certain type of bravery to stop one's life. But it's still weak, compared to living and dealing with life and it's stuff.


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineSource
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Re: suicide [Re: Jellric]
    #2596943 - 04/24/04 02:07 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

when he was 4 years old, my brother-in-law watched his father blow his brains all over the living room floor. He's still punishing himself for it.

You see, suicide doesn't end suffering. It doesn't lay the burden down, it lays it on the back of others. All that suffering is carried on by those who loved you.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: suicide [Re: Source]
    #2596978 - 04/24/04 02:17 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Someone close to me just lost someone. At first they thought it was suicide. At first, before they found out it was an accidental death, my friend took the blame for the death on himself. Up to the time of death, he had been justified in distancing himself from this person, because of the way this person behaved. Very badly. After the death, suddenly the guilt came in..."If only I had dont his..." "If only I had done that..." It was terrible to watch. I was very glad when the truth of the death came out. Then, I let him have it for trying to take the blame when it was believed to be a suicide.

Everyone blames themselves when a suicide occurs. What we should have, could have, would have done, if only....

That's what is also bullshit about a person killing him/herself. It's not just weak. It's selfish. Rather than fix their problems, they leave more problems behind for the people that love them to deal with.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: suicide [Re: Frog]
    #2596999 - 04/24/04 02:28 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I wonder how many cases are thought of as suicide, but were really just accidents. That would be horrible for all concerned.

And vice versa, too. It's impossible to tell suicide statistics, because it's so hard to tell sometimes what really was suicide. And if we tell the family it was suicide when it really wasn't, it's going to be hard on the family and ruin the person's reputation.

That's why there should be a law that says all people committing or attempting suicide have to write a note. If they don't obey the law they can be fined hundreds of dollars. This'll solve the problem


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Re: suicide [Re: Ravus]
    #2597017 - 04/24/04 02:33 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

:lol:  Yes, their estate can be fined when it's probated.  Unless, of course, they die insolvent.  Is that the right word?  But then, of course, we make the family pay!!

But that's what my friend did.  He wasn't going to tell his children that it was a suicide, when it was thought it was suicide, so that they wouldn't have any guilt feelings. 

I never thought about that..."what if a suicide was really just an accident"...on a larger scale.  Holy crap. 

Maybe there should be a law that a suicide can't be determined a suicide unless there's a note.  No note, then someone must have killed him/her.  Then, we put those closest to the suicide on trial for murder.  :grin:


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: suicide [Re: Jellric]
    #2597027 - 04/24/04 02:36 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Okay. 99.99% of the worlds religions and belief systems do not support suicide.

Happy now?


Absolutely not!

Your original statement was that ..."it (suicide) does not end your pain."

Suddenly your statement completely transforms to something else. Most agnostics and atheists also do not "support" suicide; yet believe that the pain does end, as there is no evidence to support any other contention.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: suicide [Re: Swami]
    #2597035 - 04/24/04 02:38 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

The pain doesn't end, because the spirit takes the knowledge with him of the suicide it committed while inhabiting a human body. What a shameful thing to take home with you!

It also takes the knowledge with it that it will have to come back and try, try again. It has to learn what it did and why, and then come back and start over, very likely in similar surroundings with similar experiences, hoping to get it right the next time around.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineBleaK
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Re: suicide [Re: Frog]
    #2597043 - 04/24/04 02:42 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Frog said:
Someone close to me just lost someone. At first they thought it was suicide. At first, before they found out it was an accidental death, my friend took the blame for the death on himself. Up to the time of death, he had been justified in distancing himself from this person, because of the way this person behaved. Very badly. After the death, suddenly the guilt came in..."If only I had dont his..." "If only I had done that..." It was terrible to watch. I was very glad when the truth of the death came out. Then, I let him have it for trying to take the blame when it was believed to be a suicide.

Everyone blames themselves when a suicide occurs. What we should have, could have, would have done, if only....

That's what is also bullshit about a person killing him/herself. It's not just weak. It's selfish. Rather than fix their problems, they leave more problems behind for the people that love them to deal with.




what problems? if someone thinks its their fault, its their problem. that they created in their own mind.


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


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Re: suicide [Re: BleaK]
    #2597053 - 04/24/04 02:47 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Well, of course, Bleak!  Everything is created in our own minds! 

Reality.  What a trip!  :grin:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: suicide [Re: Frog]
    #2597056 - 04/24/04 02:48 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Hmmm, so a woman lives a good clean life, raises a family, contributes to society then in her later years watches her husband of 58 years die a painful death. Then while grieving, finds out that she now has terminal bone cancer. So at age 83, she decides to end the misery and will be punished for her genetics; whereas God would love her more if she dulled out on a morphine drip and spent her grand-kids inheritance on medical bills that would give her another 3 months of labored breathing and terror in a hospital bed.

Makes sense to me...  :rolleyes:


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InvisibleJellric
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Re: suicide [Re: Swami]
    #2597058 - 04/24/04 02:49 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Happy now?

Absolutely not!

Umm..my question was directed to bert, not you.


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OfflineBleaK
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Re: suicide [Re: Frog]
    #2597070 - 04/24/04 02:57 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Frog said:
Well, of course, Bleak!  Everything is created in our own minds! 

Reality.  What a trip!  :grin:




my question still stands


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OfflineFrog
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Re: suicide [Re: Swami]
    #2597075 - 04/24/04 03:00 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Hmmm, so a woman lives a good clean life, raises a family, contributes to society then in her later years watches her husband of 58 years die a painful death. Then while grieving, finds out that she now has terminal bone cancer. So at age 83, she decides to end the misery and will be punished for her genetics; whereas God would lover her more if she dulled out on a morphine drip and spent her grand-kids inheritance on medical bills that would give her another 3 months of labored breathing and terror in a hospital bed.

Well, gee, assuming they have been 'round once or twice before, I wonder what happened in their previous lives that caused them to have to come back and experience his painful death and her terminal bone cancer? And what are they meant to learn by dealing with life's low blows? If they choose the easy way out, suicide, don't they have to come back and try again? Yes.

Why not learn it the first time through??? It doesn't mean it sucks any less, but if we are here to learn, then we are here to learn from all experiences, not just the ones we like.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: suicide [Re: Frog]
    #2597079 - 04/24/04 03:03 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Trust me. You would at least go for the morphine drip instead of feeling the "fullness" of the experience. In fact, I would be willing to bet heavily that you have already used pain medication or even *gasp* :eek: anesthesia! This, of course, would be counter to your position.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Re: suicide [Re: Swami]
    #2597086 - 04/24/04 03:07 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I would most definitely go for the morphine drip! I don't even think God would begrudge me the morphine drip! I'm not talking about feeling the fullness of the experience. I'm talking about dealing with life's blows instead of killing myself.

If I have to die from cancer, it would suck, but I would try to deal with it as best I could, with all the tools at my disposal, including morphine, rather than kill myself. As my kids would say, with some new expression that seems to have come about, "that's cheap. "


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: suicide [Re: Frog]
    #2597101 - 04/24/04 03:17 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

would most definitely go for the morphine drip! I don't even think God would begrudge me the morphine drip!
Ah, now you know the mind of God? Well he told me there was no difference! :3rd_eye:

I'm not talking about feeling the fullness of the experience. I'm talking about dealing with life's blows instead of killing myself.
How is doping one's self into a semi-conscious state dealing with the illness? How is that better than full-scale avoidance?


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OfflineFrog
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Re: suicide [Re: Swami]
    #2597108 - 04/24/04 03:22 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I think God provides man with intelligence so that we can create things that can be either beautiful or sinister.  Free will, ya know.  :grin:

Now, if man creates morphine as a way to deal with pain, I think that is better than killing one's self as a way to deal with cancer. 

If someone is in a car wreck, and his body is mangled, do we let him lie on the street, bleeding to death, and tell him to "deal"?  No, we patch him up and make him better.  Should he kill himself because he has to learn to walk again?  Or because maybe he can't use his legs again? 

We have the technology to help people when they are in a crisis.  I don't see why God would have a problem with that.  We have to learn to deal with life with the tools at our disposal, right?  Killing one's self is not dealing with life.


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Invisiblebert
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Re: suicide [Re: Frog]
    #2597115 - 04/24/04 03:27 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

By your logic, God created sharp tools in order that we can kill ourselves. How is being constantly morphine dosed equal 'dealing with reality'? If my loved one were in such a position and they wanted to end their life, I would probably give them my best wishes and send them off. It would be less painful than watching them suffer for an indefinite period of time. According to the Buddha, suffering is attachment to the material.


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Persons denying the existence of robots may be robots themselves.


Edited by bert (04/24/04 03:28 AM)


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OfflineFrog
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Re: suicide [Re: bert]
    #2597120 - 04/24/04 03:33 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I really hope I don't have to die a horrible death, suffering from intense pain. But if I have to go through that, I will do it without killing myself, because all of life's offerings, whether we like them or not, are a learning experience that we must take on and LEARN for reasons not clear to us while we are learning them.

Maybe your learning experience would be to not help someone commit suicide who is suffering, but instead deal with your discomfort by helping them deal with theirs.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: suicide [Re: Frog]
    #2597124 - 04/24/04 03:37 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

It's a nice thought, but if that ideology turned out to be wrong and you woke up in the astral planes, realizing you had just put a burden of thousands of dollars on your family for a few more months of drugged existence, you may think differently then. I believe at a certain stage, if a human wants to die he should be allowed to. Life is sacred enough to be able to choose to end it, and if someone is in intense pain, suffering from cancer and nearing their end, they should be allowed to be euthanized. It's all about free will, and not only what's best for oneself, but what's best for one's family and predecessors


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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Invisiblebert
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Re: suicide [Re: Frog]
    #2597125 - 04/24/04 03:37 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I think you missed the point. The point is if I saw my loved one in such pain, through my love for that person I would renounce all my selfish wants. If they are really in such physical pain then I would support them in any which way they desired, even if that means foregoing my discomfort for their benefit. What if their learning experience is suicide?


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Persons denying the existence of robots may be robots themselves.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: suicide [Re: bert]
    #2597129 - 04/24/04 03:42 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Ravus and Bert, I agree, if someone absolutely wants to terminate his life because of the pain of suffering, who am I to say "No!"?  I am not saying that I would prevent someone from killing himself, I don't think.  I am saying it is not a good idea because we are here to learn, and suicide is not an option.

But damned good issue you raised.  Would I help someone kill himself if he was suffering from cancer and the pain was so great that even morphine didn't help??  Huh. 

My initial response is no, I wouldn't.  But I don't know why, right now, that that is my initial response.  I feel, somehow, that it is tied in with karma, but I don't know for sure exactly how.

I will consult with my guru tomorrow and get back to yous.  :grin:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineFrog
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Re: suicide [Re: BleaK]
    #2597154 - 04/24/04 04:03 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

BleaK said:
Quote:

Frog said:
Well, of course, Bleak!  Everything is created in our own minds! 

Reality.  What a trip!  :grin:




my question still stands




Well, hell, bleak, so does my answer.  :grin:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineBleaK
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Re: suicide [Re: Frog]
    #2597251 - 04/24/04 05:52 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Frog said:
Quote:

BleaK said:
Quote:

Frog said:
Well, of course, Bleak!  Everything is created in our own minds! 

Reality.  What a trip!  :grin:




my question still stands




Well, hell, bleak, so does my answer.  :grin:




so u agree then that there is no burden in suicide on others, aside from their own?


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


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Offlinefaelr
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Re: suicide [Re: Swami]
    #2597769 - 04/24/04 01:31 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Hmmm, so a woman lives a good clean life, raises a family, contributes to society then in her later years watches her husband of 58 years die a painful death. Then while grieving, finds out that she now has terminal bone cancer. So at age 83, she decides to end the misery and will be punished for her genetics; whereas God would love her more if she dulled out on a morphine drip and spent her grand-kids inheritance on medical bills that would give her another 3 months of labored breathing and terror in a hospital bed.

Makes sense to me...  :rolleyes:




new question! okay if ending life early is so wrong, then what does god have to say about extending, or rather, prolonging it?


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where i walk, i walk alone. when i fight, i fight alone. i am no one and i am nothing. yet all is that i am.


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Invisiblebert
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Re: suicide [Re: faelr]
    #2598169 - 04/24/04 03:24 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

If God does exists, then who are you (or any of us) to say what he thinks or feels? It is pointless conjecture. Now if you want to discuss the morality of prolonging life based on the material world and applicable human desires and what is best for society in the long run, I can do that.


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Persons denying the existence of robots may be robots themselves.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: suicide [Re: BleaK]
    #2598546 - 04/24/04 06:34 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

BleaK: so u agree then that there is no burden in suicide on others, aside from their own?

Yes, I agree. They just tend to perceive it as a burden, even though rationally they are not responsible.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineZahid
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Re: suicide [Re: Frog]
    #2598729 - 04/24/04 08:34 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

God. Well, as they say, take the mercy of all the fathers and mothers of this world and through time, and it would only be the foam on the shores of the ocean, unmatched to the Mercy of God (this was a Rumi poem). Suicide is a sad position; and suicides should be shown compassion, especially those who survive. Often in the Muslim world, with strict fundamentalism as an accepted social norm, funerals for suicides (obvious killing of the self out of despair, to leave politics out of this) are forced to be secular, and supplication is forbidden as hadith dictates. Suicide isn't as simple and indifferent as Jerry Seinfeld would lead us to believe. It's sad, and creepy. So pray for those who took their lives, as obvious personality flaws that gather the events leading up to a suicide need to approached on a forgiving level.


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InvisibleTODAY
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Re: suicide [Re: question_for_joo]
    #2598848 - 04/24/04 09:35 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

god gave them the pain that made them take their life...god gave them the will that made the decision to take their life...god doesn't forgive them? do they forgive god?


--------------------

ca'rouse (k-rouz)
intr.v.
To engage in boisterous, drunken merrymaking.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: suicide [Re: Frog]
    #2598866 - 04/24/04 09:42 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I spoke to my guru. Subsequently, my answer would still stand, that I would not help someone to kill himself. It would be wrong to help someone take a life, even if that life is his/her own. It would be better for me to help that person deal with the pain and understand going through that pain, rather than help them to avoid it by taking their own life.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineJuggtop
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Re: suicide [Re: Jellric]
    #2598891 - 04/24/04 09:52 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I believe that it is sad for those who can not put up with life anymore because to all the suffereing there is always a pot of gold at the end no matter what life you lead. I myself am not one to judge people and being on the verge of suicide myself makes me a little more understanding of those who have commited it. I think that everyone needs to be heard and understood no matter how "crazy" their view might be. Its frustrating to never to be understood.


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Offlinejohnnyfive
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Re: suicide [Re: Sclorch]
    #2599573 - 04/25/04 01:41 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Harsh man, get red sickness (the voice in your head drilling, rapping, beating, manipulating) you'll see suicide in a new light!!!!!!

I wounder why there isn't much talk about the induced suicide to become god at this site? I've tryed this and failed and i wounder if anyone has been successful in the cut? or is it just one gigantic plan to get the soul.

I say screw it, if god forgives, whats the worst that could happen! :yesnod:
When i tryed to die, it was peaceful but not a pretty site to see. And now im a very very hallowed out cold machine and a very lost soul!

In my life now i can go to the crazy hospital and have to voice removed, or i can die now or after the crazy hospital, but i still have to die, due to a previous experience with death that took alot with it! Basically i can die now with it and have the potential for an eternity with the created person i am today, only alien. Or i can wait go the hospital have it removed, get out realize how FUCKED UP i am, and then die due to sadness. or just die now!  :eyemouth:

Either way and any scenerio i choose I cannot be who i want to be! I don't think i will EVER get to be what i want to be. And if i do make it i have (!!!ALOT!!!!) of deprogramming to do.

Has anyone out there had anything similar happening to them?


One more rant:

I am sooooooooo sick of this waiting shit, these lies in the media (surprisingly here at the shroomery too) about how to evolve. It was always a very very simple answer, just die!


Edited by johnnyfive (04/26/04 12:32 AM)


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OfflineFrog
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Re: suicide [Re: johnnyfive]
    #2599630 - 04/25/04 01:55 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

johnnyfive, your post sounds revealing, and sad, and I hope you're okay, whatever "okay" means.  I don't have anything illuminating to say.  I just hope you're okay.  :heart:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Invisible2Experimental
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Re: suicide [Re: johnnyfive]
    #2599641 - 04/25/04 01:58 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

man life has so much to offer even though you are in hell right now. Acording to history nothing stays the same so I can guarantee you if you stick it out you will be truly happy upon your death bed.


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Offlinefaelr
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Re: suicide [Re: bert]
    #2599899 - 04/25/04 03:45 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

thats what i was looking for. glad someone picked up on it.:)


--------------------
where i walk, i walk alone. when i fight, i fight alone. i am no one and i am nothing. yet all is that i am.


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OfflineTheShroomHermit
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Re: suicide [Re: 2Experimental]
    #2600426 - 04/25/04 11:13 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

>I can guarantee you if you stick it out you will be truly happy upon your death bed.
-It's impossible to make that garuntee... but I agree it is well worth the shot.

Give life a shot. So what if it sucks, it's alot easier to live now than for our forefathers. The very fact that your alive and kickin' tells us to trust your instinct, your DNA will tell you to self-preserve. This is why people often go through several "attempts" because there mind is very split on the decision.


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