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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: suicide [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5621547 - 05/12/06 02:59 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Who's talking about disrespect of life if there is such a thing? There are good enough reasons for killing oneself IMO. But look at all the folks hooked up to tubes and in these hospitals and old folks homes. My mother was terrified of continuing to live the way she was when the doc said she might live 10 more years. She couldn't kill herself and became phobic of germs and all sorts of shit she never though of before. I think it was the terror of wanting to die and the overriding survival instinct at war. She definately wanted out and was tortured until she finally did die. I think you are wrong here or I'm completely misunderstanding your position.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: suicide [Re: Icelander]
    #5621550 - 05/12/06 03:00 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Are you calling the grieving mothers of children who have committed suicide "selfish"?

I was once told that no internal suffering in this world can be compared to that of a parent whose child has terminated their own life, and I think this rings true - compassion for others should override the selfish needs of the 'suicidee' to end whatever pain they're in. Perhaps you see the grieving mother as being selfish, but this view lacks compassion towards the very concept of parenthood itself. Mothers will be mothers, and they love their babies dearly.

A family lightly associated with mine had a suicide - several years ago their 24 year-old son shot himself, leaving a short note that said he was bored with life, and told his parents to not mourn him. His logic and reasoning was clearly distorted: since HE wasn't mourning his own death, why should his parents. What the fuck was he thinking? His father became a wreck after that, and died two years later of stress-related health complications. The mother took up drinking, and to this day she is an empty shell of a human being. From this experience, and speaking as someone who nearly did go over the edge, most suicides are the result of benighted coping skills, and last but not least, the driving force of the actual act itself is none other than a blatant cognitive distortion, as the prospect of what is left behind after a suicide is completely ignored.

Reality is ultimately governed by the law of Compassion and Karma. Those who kill themselves will not taste liberation. They will taste the womb once again. They will taste the world once again, for they destroyed a couple of sparks who bathed them, clothed them, loved them unconditionally.

If an ailing octogenerian wishes to retire from life in every sense of the word, more power to him. But there is nothing more hopeless and uncompassionate in this world than a youth who terminates their own life as a result of a severely myopic worldview.

I see what you're getting at, but not every suicide is full of resigned existential wisdom. Most, especially among young people, are just outright stupid and selfish.

What would Jesus do? He would have compassion for the mother, and mourn the ignorance of the son (or daughter, but demographically it's mostly young men who kill themselves). The last thing he would do is tell the mother to get over it or insinuite that her grief is the result of selfish reasoning.

Ironically, after my own suicide attempt, I had a pseudo-vision - a vivid dream of my parents ruined and skeletized in inner torment. They were thin like feathers and frail like collected dust. With God (and the very helpful compassion of a Shroomerite), I over-came the self-centered thought distortions that occur almost mechanically as a reaction to inner pain.

Eventually I came to learn that all mental suffering is egoic. The closer to God I became, the more meaningless my own needs became. These days I'm living ecstatically in Spirit.

Suicide is in many ways a survival mechanism - mainly the survival of contention. It would seem that many suicides kill themselves to avoid unhappiness, preferring non-existence over pain.

I'm thinking larger than that.

I'm thinking about the survival of the spirit, and for the spirit to survive the spirit must enslave itself in Love and Compassion. Life got someone down?

Tough it out, I say.

Because the Selfless needs of the parent outweigh the Selfish needs of the child.

And selflessness is the very hallmark of parenthood.

Peace.


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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OfflineCepheus
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Re: suicide [Re: Basilides]
    #5621700 - 05/12/06 03:50 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

to die would be one hell of an adventure.

we spend our entire lifes preparing for it.....

but suicide, imo, is not really death.. more of an ego death which leads to actual death .. aka the cheaters way out.


--------------------
"I only ever hope to reach equilibrium, in Nature's matrix, in line with the meridian" ~ Jehst

:sun: "...and I know that I have to keep breathing, as tomorrow the sun will rise, who knows what the tide will bring?" :sun:

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Send any spare spore prints you might have and help the distribution :grin:

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: suicide [Re: Basilides]
    #5621861 - 05/12/06 04:51 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Are you calling the grieving mothers of children who have committed suicide "selfish"?

Indeed I am by the very definition of the word. If you bring someone into this world (give them the gift of life) then it's a gift and you have no right to demand anything from them; or it's not a gift and you give them no choice in the matter as they never asked to be born. How come you can't get that? It's SELFISH. Define that word. It means my feelings and wants are more important than yours. How blind and consumed by cultural programming IMO. Why are you so bent on having others do your bidding? Leave others the fuck alone and take care of you own life.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (05/12/06 05:06 PM)


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OfflineSprings
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Re: suicide [Re: Icelander]
    #5621897 - 05/12/06 05:10 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

There should be a requirement to eat 7 grams of mushrooms before you do it, always thought that would do the trick lol.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: suicide [Re: Icelander]
    #5621906 - 05/12/06 05:14 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

the cloak of ego can be stretched over any number of moments, but the monkey that can hold the knife is no more entitled to his opinion than the 3 second one which came before or the 3 second one which may follow.

the injustice is that one 3 second monkey can kill off all subsequent ones. This is dysfunction, nothing more than error. An effort to take what is not possessable.

we only live 3 seconds. that we imagine we are more than that is absurd. That we might assume our limited scope of vision is all encompassing is outrageous (how in 3 seconds can the whole idea of life be addressed!?!?). this is where the respect of life is violated, and judgement fails.

the memory traces of a stream of consciousness produce a strong illusion that we are living a long time. but our time is very short and each of us is equal in this short time.

why would some among us be more entitled than others to cut the process, or to imagine it was a good thing.

I am not saying that the prospect of sufferring for 5 years must be swallowed with impunity, palliative cases are different than what this thread is really about.

Normally I try to keep to bumper sticker comments, but having lost a brother to this process I am, we are, all unwilling to just let it pass.

I am certain that he, most of him, would have preferred to argue with me about this than to be out of the picture.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: suicide [Re: Cepheus]
    #5621913 - 05/12/06 05:16 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

aManEater said:
to die would be one hell of an adventure.




that is an unfortunate speculation.
or the echoing of words that actually mean something else.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: suicide [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5621956 - 05/12/06 05:29 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

So you choose to be selfish. I'm not even saying that in a negative sense. Your feelings are just more important and your perspective on life is more important to you than anothers.

While I acknowledge your sadness and feelings of loss over your brother that in does not change my view on this.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: suicide [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5621958 - 05/12/06 05:30 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Quote:

aManEater said:
to die would be one hell of an adventure.




that is an unfortunate speculation.
or the echoing of words that actually mean something else.




Please explain your comments.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (05/12/06 05:30 PM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: suicide [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5621998 - 05/12/06 05:42 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
Quote:

ReefeRnShroomS said:
if anybody feels sad or down, just pm me and maybe we can have talks maybe i can make you feel better




That's really sweet, something practical as oposed to most philosophical bablings about how suicide is this or that..




This is the P&S forum, designed for discussion of these issues.:tongue:
If advice is wanted then the Physical and Mental forum would be appropriate.

I do not babble, I pontificate.  :crankey:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: suicide [Re: Basilides]
    #5622042 - 05/12/06 05:59 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

suicide is not selfish

wanting another to stay on the earthly plane when that person is in constant pain is selfish.

people who cry about death have no faith.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: suicide [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5622087 - 05/12/06 06:11 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Doc we don't often agree but I'm with you on this one. :thumbup: I do think that morning may be a necessary thing. Sadness at the death of someone we love is understandable. There may be other ways that do not require sadness though.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (05/12/06 06:14 PM)


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: suicide [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5622107 - 05/12/06 06:15 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I have attempted suicide several times......for several different reasons.

(see the "My Path" link in my sig for the whole sad story)


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: suicide [Re: niteowl]
    #5622154 - 05/12/06 06:25 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Wow! Right on and good for you.

Listen up here. I'm not advocating suicide for anyone. I'm saying everyone has the right to choose and in the end it's nobody else's business. I love it when people can work out this stuff. It's not easy and also takes great courage.  :thumbup: :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: suicide [Re: Icelander]
    #5622616 - 05/12/06 08:19 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
So you choose to be selfish. I'm not even saying that in a negative sense. Your feelings are just more important and your perspective on life is more important to you than anothers.

While I acknowledge your sadness and feelings of loss over your brother that in does not change my view on this.




not a single mention of the 3 second monkey self that mistakenly believes he knows something.

in particular that the 3 second hollow man might know enough to merit making a decision that will terminate the lives of his own progeny selves in the same body.

instead, you are latching onto the more familiar illusion of self model and assuming I am there too and being selfish.

my comment has gone clear out of your expected range.
to understand what I am talking about,

refocus
see what you are
what we all are.
we are brief events in a stream of consciousness.
each one of these events has the custody for the whole stream.


see that? yes? then while seeing it look at this discussion,

so much talk about ego loss and very little consistent view.

As for alluding to the great ride of death, one must have eyes to see that, maybe one in a million has eyes to see that, this is not a guaranteed frontier to consider.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: suicide [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5622677 - 05/12/06 08:33 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I know nothing about this 3 second monkey man. :grin: I couldn't relate to what you are saying so I didn't respond to it. And now that you've explained it I still don't know what it has to do with anything here.

Each individual can choose how to live. I may not like it or agree but unless they plan on doing me physical harm then it's not my place to try and force them to be other than they choose. What's so hard to understand here?

You have certain views on what life means. Are you so arrogant to think you are certainly correct? Choose for yourself because you cannot know for another what is a correct path. Or what purpose or designs life has.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: suicide [Re: Icelander]
    #5622985 - 05/12/06 09:38 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

arrogant?

I talk about how cosnciousness seems to float alomg like a stream.
during the floating many impressions occur, sensations and memory.
they resonate for a second or so and we form our response expression. this can cycle as quickly as once every 3 seconds

so we proceed in the stream like beads on a rosary one self aftr another in pulses of about 3 seocnds each.
each bead has the ability to decide for the whole stream - for all that follow in the stream, and each bead is the recipient of "karma" imparted by earlier bead decisions.

if you kill yourself you never get that "benefit or satisfaction" all that is done is a stream ending, and countless others who would have, now may not follow.

it is hugely narcisistic to identify with a self that lives longer than 3 seconds.

none do. the chain runs through time, and to identify with that is to leave the context of the moment.

the stream contains all the beads or selves, but it is not the self it is just a movie or sequence in time/space.

these are the most naked metaphors I can draw together to describe/suggest what I always see that we are.

I am always surprised that so few others do as well.

as for after death beads or monkeys of selfs, I have met none who have any convincing comments or metaphors.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: suicide [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5623179 - 05/12/06 10:44 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Life is a gift.


At some point in your life you felt happy. Even if it was for one fleating moment........


All of us are in conjecture about this issue because:

"Dead men tell no tales"


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: suicide [Re: Icelander]
    #5623443 - 05/13/06 12:30 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Are you calling the grieving mothers of children who have committed suicide "selfish"?

Indeed I am by the very definition of the word. If you bring someone into this world (give them the gift of life) then it's a gift and you have no right to demand anything from them; or it's not a gift and you give them no choice in the matter as they never asked to be born. How come you can't get that? It's SELFISH. Define that word. It means my feelings and wants are more important than yours. How blind and consumed by cultural programming IMO. Why are you so bent on having others do your bidding? Leave others the fuck alone and take care of you own life.




That still doesn't change that causing others pain is wrong.


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: suicide [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5623461 - 05/13/06 12:37 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

It is my opinion that suicide is not amoral. I believe that any action that causes pain in others is selfish, sinful, and a karmatic demerit.


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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