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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: suicide [Re: Jellric]
    #2597027 - 04/24/04 02:36 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Okay. 99.99% of the worlds religions and belief systems do not support suicide.

Happy now?


Absolutely not!

Your original statement was that ..."it (suicide) does not end your pain."

Suddenly your statement completely transforms to something else. Most agnostics and atheists also do not "support" suicide; yet believe that the pain does end, as there is no evidence to support any other contention.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: suicide [Re: Swami]
    #2597035 - 04/24/04 02:38 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

The pain doesn't end, because the spirit takes the knowledge with him of the suicide it committed while inhabiting a human body. What a shameful thing to take home with you!

It also takes the knowledge with it that it will have to come back and try, try again. It has to learn what it did and why, and then come back and start over, very likely in similar surroundings with similar experiences, hoping to get it right the next time around.


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineBleaK
paradox
Registered: 06/24/02
Posts: 1,583
Last seen: 8 years, 7 months
Re: suicide [Re: Frog]
    #2597043 - 04/24/04 02:42 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Frog said:
Someone close to me just lost someone. At first they thought it was suicide. At first, before they found out it was an accidental death, my friend took the blame for the death on himself. Up to the time of death, he had been justified in distancing himself from this person, because of the way this person behaved. Very badly. After the death, suddenly the guilt came in..."If only I had dont his..." "If only I had done that..." It was terrible to watch. I was very glad when the truth of the death came out. Then, I let him have it for trying to take the blame when it was believed to be a suicide.

Everyone blames themselves when a suicide occurs. What we should have, could have, would have done, if only....

That's what is also bullshit about a person killing him/herself. It's not just weak. It's selfish. Rather than fix their problems, they leave more problems behind for the people that love them to deal with.




what problems? if someone thinks its their fault, its their problem. that they created in their own mind.


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"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


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OfflineFrog
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Re: suicide [Re: BleaK]
    #2597053 - 04/24/04 02:47 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Well, of course, Bleak!  Everything is created in our own minds! 

Reality.  What a trip!  :grin:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: suicide [Re: Frog]
    #2597056 - 04/24/04 02:48 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Hmmm, so a woman lives a good clean life, raises a family, contributes to society then in her later years watches her husband of 58 years die a painful death. Then while grieving, finds out that she now has terminal bone cancer. So at age 83, she decides to end the misery and will be punished for her genetics; whereas God would love her more if she dulled out on a morphine drip and spent her grand-kids inheritance on medical bills that would give her another 3 months of labored breathing and terror in a hospital bed.

Makes sense to me...  :rolleyes:


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleJellric
altered statesman

Registered: 11/08/98
Posts: 2,261
Loc: non-local
Re: suicide [Re: Swami]
    #2597058 - 04/24/04 02:49 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Happy now?

Absolutely not!

Umm..my question was directed to bert, not you.


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I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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OfflineBleaK
paradox
Registered: 06/24/02
Posts: 1,583
Last seen: 8 years, 7 months
Re: suicide [Re: Frog]
    #2597070 - 04/24/04 02:57 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Frog said:
Well, of course, Bleak!  Everything is created in our own minds! 

Reality.  What a trip!  :grin:




my question still stands


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


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OfflineFrog
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Re: suicide [Re: Swami]
    #2597075 - 04/24/04 03:00 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Hmmm, so a woman lives a good clean life, raises a family, contributes to society then in her later years watches her husband of 58 years die a painful death. Then while grieving, finds out that she now has terminal bone cancer. So at age 83, she decides to end the misery and will be punished for her genetics; whereas God would lover her more if she dulled out on a morphine drip and spent her grand-kids inheritance on medical bills that would give her another 3 months of labored breathing and terror in a hospital bed.

Well, gee, assuming they have been 'round once or twice before, I wonder what happened in their previous lives that caused them to have to come back and experience his painful death and her terminal bone cancer? And what are they meant to learn by dealing with life's low blows? If they choose the easy way out, suicide, don't they have to come back and try again? Yes.

Why not learn it the first time through??? It doesn't mean it sucks any less, but if we are here to learn, then we are here to learn from all experiences, not just the ones we like.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: suicide [Re: Frog]
    #2597079 - 04/24/04 03:03 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Trust me. You would at least go for the morphine drip instead of feeling the "fullness" of the experience. In fact, I would be willing to bet heavily that you have already used pain medication or even *gasp* :eek: anesthesia! This, of course, would be counter to your position.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: suicide [Re: Swami]
    #2597086 - 04/24/04 03:07 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I would most definitely go for the morphine drip! I don't even think God would begrudge me the morphine drip! I'm not talking about feeling the fullness of the experience. I'm talking about dealing with life's blows instead of killing myself.

If I have to die from cancer, it would suck, but I would try to deal with it as best I could, with all the tools at my disposal, including morphine, rather than kill myself. As my kids would say, with some new expression that seems to have come about, "that's cheap. "


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: suicide [Re: Frog]
    #2597101 - 04/24/04 03:17 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

would most definitely go for the morphine drip! I don't even think God would begrudge me the morphine drip!
Ah, now you know the mind of God? Well he told me there was no difference! :3rd_eye:

I'm not talking about feeling the fullness of the experience. I'm talking about dealing with life's blows instead of killing myself.
How is doping one's self into a semi-conscious state dealing with the illness? How is that better than full-scale avoidance?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: suicide [Re: Swami]
    #2597108 - 04/24/04 03:22 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I think God provides man with intelligence so that we can create things that can be either beautiful or sinister.  Free will, ya know.  :grin:

Now, if man creates morphine as a way to deal with pain, I think that is better than killing one's self as a way to deal with cancer. 

If someone is in a car wreck, and his body is mangled, do we let him lie on the street, bleeding to death, and tell him to "deal"?  No, we patch him up and make him better.  Should he kill himself because he has to learn to walk again?  Or because maybe he can't use his legs again? 

We have the technology to help people when they are in a crisis.  I don't see why God would have a problem with that.  We have to learn to deal with life with the tools at our disposal, right?  Killing one's self is not dealing with life.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Invisiblebert
bodhi

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2,819
Loc: state
Re: suicide [Re: Frog]
    #2597115 - 04/24/04 03:27 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

By your logic, God created sharp tools in order that we can kill ourselves. How is being constantly morphine dosed equal 'dealing with reality'? If my loved one were in such a position and they wanted to end their life, I would probably give them my best wishes and send them off. It would be less painful than watching them suffer for an indefinite period of time. According to the Buddha, suffering is attachment to the material.


--------------------
Persons denying the existence of robots may be robots themselves.


Edited by bert (04/24/04 03:28 AM)


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OfflineFrog
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Re: suicide [Re: bert]
    #2597120 - 04/24/04 03:33 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I really hope I don't have to die a horrible death, suffering from intense pain. But if I have to go through that, I will do it without killing myself, because all of life's offerings, whether we like them or not, are a learning experience that we must take on and LEARN for reasons not clear to us while we are learning them.

Maybe your learning experience would be to not help someone commit suicide who is suffering, but instead deal with your discomfort by helping them deal with theirs.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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InvisibleRavus
Not an EggshellWalker
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Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
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Re: suicide [Re: Frog]
    #2597124 - 04/24/04 03:37 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

It's a nice thought, but if that ideology turned out to be wrong and you woke up in the astral planes, realizing you had just put a burden of thousands of dollars on your family for a few more months of drugged existence, you may think differently then. I believe at a certain stage, if a human wants to die he should be allowed to. Life is sacred enough to be able to choose to end it, and if someone is in intense pain, suffering from cancer and nearing their end, they should be allowed to be euthanized. It's all about free will, and not only what's best for oneself, but what's best for one's family and predecessors


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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Invisiblebert
bodhi

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2,819
Loc: state
Re: suicide [Re: Frog]
    #2597125 - 04/24/04 03:37 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I think you missed the point. The point is if I saw my loved one in such pain, through my love for that person I would renounce all my selfish wants. If they are really in such physical pain then I would support them in any which way they desired, even if that means foregoing my discomfort for their benefit. What if their learning experience is suicide?


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Persons denying the existence of robots may be robots themselves.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: suicide [Re: bert]
    #2597129 - 04/24/04 03:42 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Ravus and Bert, I agree, if someone absolutely wants to terminate his life because of the pain of suffering, who am I to say "No!"?  I am not saying that I would prevent someone from killing himself, I don't think.  I am saying it is not a good idea because we are here to learn, and suicide is not an option.

But damned good issue you raised.  Would I help someone kill himself if he was suffering from cancer and the pain was so great that even morphine didn't help??  Huh. 

My initial response is no, I wouldn't.  But I don't know why, right now, that that is my initial response.  I feel, somehow, that it is tied in with karma, but I don't know for sure exactly how.

I will consult with my guru tomorrow and get back to yous.  :grin:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineFrog
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Re: suicide [Re: BleaK]
    #2597154 - 04/24/04 04:03 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

BleaK said:
Quote:

Frog said:
Well, of course, Bleak!  Everything is created in our own minds! 

Reality.  What a trip!  :grin:




my question still stands




Well, hell, bleak, so does my answer.  :grin:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineBleaK
paradox
Registered: 06/24/02
Posts: 1,583
Last seen: 8 years, 7 months
Re: suicide [Re: Frog]
    #2597251 - 04/24/04 05:52 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Frog said:
Quote:

BleaK said:
Quote:

Frog said:
Well, of course, Bleak!  Everything is created in our own minds! 

Reality.  What a trip!  :grin:




my question still stands




Well, hell, bleak, so does my answer.  :grin:




so u agree then that there is no burden in suicide on others, aside from their own?


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


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Offlinefaelr
the darkestlight

Registered: 04/12/04
Posts: 138
Loc: st.louis
Last seen: 18 years, 2 months
Re: suicide [Re: Swami]
    #2597769 - 04/24/04 01:31 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Hmmm, so a woman lives a good clean life, raises a family, contributes to society then in her later years watches her husband of 58 years die a painful death. Then while grieving, finds out that she now has terminal bone cancer. So at age 83, she decides to end the misery and will be punished for her genetics; whereas God would love her more if she dulled out on a morphine drip and spent her grand-kids inheritance on medical bills that would give her another 3 months of labored breathing and terror in a hospital bed.

Makes sense to me...  :rolleyes:




new question! okay if ending life early is so wrong, then what does god have to say about extending, or rather, prolonging it?


--------------------
where i walk, i walk alone. when i fight, i fight alone. i am no one and i am nothing. yet all is that i am.


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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


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