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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: Chilling Look Inside The Mind Of A Suicide Bomber [Re: Fospher]
    #6626226 - 03/01/07 10:00 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Read Genesis - it confirms the ideas of both evolution (fish appearing, then mammals, and finally - man) and the Big Bang.




I sure as hell don't see anything in Genesis that confirms biological evolution and I have read it many times. If you want to interpret that section of scripture in that way, thats your prerogative, but as it is written, it blatantly negates the current theory of evolution.

The problem with reading between the lines is that there is nothing there to read. You're projecting your own interpretation onto the text.

Quote:

I can understand the Grand Canyon getting formed by random precipitation. or maybe some earthworm living pathetically due to carbon formation and water on this planet, but tigers? Dinosaurs? Homosapiens?




There is a mountain of evidence, including a vast taxonomy of fossil records that shows simpler organisms appearing before more complex organisms, that supports the current theory of evolution. It can also easily be observed at the bacterial level, where evolution happens relatively quickly. (This is how biological weapons are created.) The theory of evolution is the best supported theory only after the theory of gravity. Its practically a tautology.

On the other hand, the only thing that supports the existence of God or creationism is faith.

Quote:

The real fairy tale here is believing that all these creatures, including ourselves just evolved with nothing but blind chance.




Which is more of a fairy tale? A scientifically supported theory or some unprovable superstition that you were raised with?

('Chance' has absofuckinglotely nothing to do with it.)


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: Chilling Look Inside The Mind Of A Suicide Bomber [Re: Fospher]
    #6626340 - 03/01/07 10:23 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

I can understand the Grand Canyon getting formed by random precipitation.




That is good... not everyone can.

Just for some comic relief:

Quote:

For years, as a Colorado River guide I told people how the Grand Canyon was formed over the evolutionary time scale of millions of years. Then I met the Lord. Now, I have "a different view" of the Canyon, which,  according to a biblical time scale, can't possibly be more than about a few thousand years old. Come and view the Grand Canyon with 23 creation scientists and theologians from around the world. This 10" X 8", 104 page hard cover book is filled with informative essays and stunning photos, many by Canyon guide Charly Heavenrich. Grand Canyon, a different view will take your breath away, stimulate your imagination and presents the facts about the Grand Canyon from a Biblical perspective. Though educational enough for a home school book, it is equally beautiful as a gift or coffee table book.

What do some of the contributors say about the Grand Canyon?

It is not just an icon of beauty. It is a solemn witness to the mighty power of God. -- Dr. Henry Morris

The Grand Canyon is one of the greatest memorials of God's work that we possess. If only the Christian church took God at His Word, it could be used as one of the great reminders of His power. -- Ken Ham

The Bible says that the evidence of God's existence is seen in the things that He has made, and I confirm that in my studies as a scientist.-- Dr. Andrew Snelling

Where did the Grand Canyon itself come from? The Flood may have stacked the rock like a giant layer cake, but what cut the cake? One thing is sure: the Colorado River did not do it.-- Dr. Gary Parker

Man continues to marvel at the monument God has left. The Canyon is a testimony of our Lord's judgment and mercy.-- Dr. Kurt Wise




:lol:


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OfflineFospher
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Re: Chilling Look Inside The Mind Of A Suicide Bomber [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #6626599 - 03/01/07 11:40 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
I sure as hell don't see anything in Genesis that confirms biological evolution and I have read it many times.




It's all in there - depending on the size of your Bible, most likely on the first page.

On Evolution:

"20 Then God said, “Let the waters abound with an abundance of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the firmament of the heavens.” 21 So God created great sea creatures and every living thing that moves, with which the waters abounded, according to their kind, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 And God blessed them, saying, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth.” 23 So the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
24 Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth the living creature according to its kind: cattle and creeping thing and beast of the earth, each according to its kind”; and it was so. 25 And God made the beast of the earth according to its kind, cattle according to its kind, and everything that creeps on the earth according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness
"

Fish > Mammals > Man. Where have I seen this before? :wink:

On the Big Bang:

"3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. "

Quote:


If you want to interpret that section of scripture in that way, thats your prerogative, but as it is written, it blatantly negates the current theory of evolution.
The problem with reading between the lines is that there is nothing there to read. You're projecting your own interpretation onto the text.




If I could prove God to you, point to something and say,

"Hey man - told you! There She is!"

We would probably cease to be, as I dont think our human brain could incapacitate such an experience. You're a smart guy, do you really expect to get some Manual from Godtm telling you step by step instructions on how to get God, a la building an Ikea shelf? Understanding God is like understanding a painting, it is a mystical (and simultaneously paradoxically life-affirming) ordainment. It's not a fortune cookie you can crack and see what the real meaning is, and perhaps get your lucky numbers.

Also, you have to interpret the Bible. Think of it this way: You have to write a letter to a mysterious person who is in the need of help. This person could or could not be your age. Or your race, or kinship. Or born in the same time period that you are. Many people are going to read this letter, many of them having absolutely nothing to do with each other. Write this letter with an objective purpose of giving advice to this person, which applies directly to each and every person and span it out ... say 800 pages. If you truly can achieve this feat, then I will accept your point and learn. If not, you're a hypocrite.

Quote:


There is a mountain of evidence, including a vast taxonomy of fossil records that shows simpler organisms appearing before more complex organisms...




Um, you're not understanding what Im saying whatsoever. I didnt say I was against evolution, in fact quite the converse. Im saying that it is illogical to think that complex organisms such as ours could form just by mutations of bacteria, such as examples we can see in modern epidemics such as HIV/AIDS.

Quote:


Which is more of a fairy tale? A scientifically supported theory or some unprovable superstition that you were raised with?




First of all, science does not prove anything. Only through the acception of axioms (which are irrational), for example in Geometry can you make rational judgements afterwards. Secondly, I spent the first 10 years of my life in an predominately (a good 80%) Atheist nation.

Quote:


('Chance' has absofuckinglotely nothing to do with it.)




Arrangement of our chromosomes, our DNA including hair color, body type and a plethora of different personal features are all tied in with chance. And how can you be so absolute in your wording anyway? Not even the Human Genome Project understands evolution/makeup of DNA thoroughly.


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010001100100001001000101!


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OfflineFospher
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Re: Chilling Look Inside The Mind Of A Suicide Bomber [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #6626611 - 03/01/07 11:45 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:

Just for some comic relief:

Quote:

For years, as a Colorado River guide I told people how the Grand Canyon was formed over the evolutionary time scale of millions of years. Then I met the Lord. Now, I have "a different view" of the Canyon...







Just because someone is a clergy or a scientist does not give them authority or understanding of the Christian religion. They might know the rituals and the scriptures, which is far from understanding the meaning. Christianity is the biggest religion in the world, and a lot of average-minded people believe in it. In the words of Robert Anton Wilson - the average guy is really stupid. But what's scary is that half the population is even stupider than he is! :lol:


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010001100100001001000101!


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: Chilling Look Inside The Mind Of A Suicide Bomber [Re: Fospher]
    #6626613 - 03/01/07 11:46 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

"20 Then God said, “Let the waters abound with an abundance of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the firmament of the heavens.” 21 So God created great sea creatures and every living thing that moves, with which the waters abounded, according to their kind, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 And God blessed them, saying, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth.” 23 So the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
24 Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth the living creature according to its kind: cattle and creeping thing and beast of the earth, each according to its kind”; and it was so. 25 And God made the beast of the earth according to its kind, cattle according to its kind, and everything that creeps on the earth according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness"

Fish > Mammals > Man. Where have I seen this before?




Interesting.

But I'll have to wait until James Cameron comments on the matter.


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Chilling Look Inside The Mind Of A Suicide Bomber [Re: Fospher]
    #6627169 - 03/02/07 06:29 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

The real fairy tale here is believing that all these creatures, including ourselves just evolved with nothing but blind chance.

Wow, where did you study biology? You should ask for a refund.

Evolution is about selection. It has nothing to do with chance.

It's this acceptance of their pastor's ignorance and misconceptions about evolution that keeps creationists in the dark about the beauty of nature. That and their steadfast refusal to actually read a biology book to understand what evolution is before pooh poohing it away as nonsense.

This is not unlike how bone-headed government people (George Bush, for example) insist that marijuana is dangerous, highly addictive, and has no medical uses of any kind (this is what DEA Schedule 1 means) while refusing to read the giant pile of evidence that clearly says otherwise.

Bush and mystics/superstitious/religious people around the world are all similar when it comes to ignoring evidence in favor of dogma. And look where it's gotten us. :sad:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: Chilling Look Inside The Mind Of A Suicide Bomber [Re: Fospher]
    #6627675 - 03/02/07 10:48 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

You're a smart guy, do you really expect to get some Manual from Godtm telling you step by step instructions on how to get God, a la building an Ikea shelf?




That would be nice. I don't see why this God person would make it any more complex than that, unless he is an elitist schmuck.

Quote:

Understanding God is like understanding a painting




I can see a painting. God, on the other hand, is something that has to be accepted on the basis of faith. No amount of sensory information could ever confirm (or refute) the existence of a God, since God is supposedly a 'supernatural' being - conveniently outside of the universe. Why should I believe in this unobservable God? Just because my culture tells me to? If I were in another culture, I'd be expected to believe in yet another God.

Quote:

Think of it this way: You have to write a letter to a mysterious person who is in the need of help. This person could or could not be your age. Or your race, or kinship. Or born in the same time period that you are. Many people are going to read this letter, many of them having absolutely nothing to do with each other. Write this letter with an objective purpose of giving advice to this person, which applies directly to each and every person and span it out ... say 800 pages.




Why is God constrained by such arbitrary limitations? I thought this guy was omnipotent.

Quote:

If you truly can achieve this feat, then I will accept your point and learn.




As far as helping others goes, A Rational Guide to Living by Albert Ellis pwns the Bible and is about 600 pages shorter.



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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: Chilling Look Inside The Mind Of A Suicide Bomber [Re: Fospher]
    #6627682 - 03/02/07 10:50 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

In the words of Robert Anton Wilson - the average guy is really stupid. But what's scary is that half the population is even stupider than he is!




That originally was said by our Living Slack Master, J.R. Bob Dobbs.

"You know how dumb the average guy is? Well half of them are even dumber than that!"


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
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Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Chilling Look Inside The Mind Of A Suicide Bomber [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #6627724 - 03/02/07 11:04 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

A Rational Guide to Living by Albert Ellis

A GUIDE TO Rational Living by Albert Ellis. :wink:

A classic. :thumbup:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: Chilling Look Inside The Mind Of A Suicide Bomber [Re: Diploid]
    #6627726 - 03/02/07 11:06 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Oopsy.


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Chilling Look Inside The Mind Of A Suicide Bomber [Re: Fospher]
    #6627833 - 03/02/07 11:48 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Read Genesis - it confirms the ideas of both evolution (fish appearing, then mammals, and finally - man) and the Big Bang.

Either you've never read Genesis or you're deliberately leaving inconvenient things out.

Genesis actually starts off like this:

1 First God made heaven & earth 2 The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters. 3 And God said, "Let there be light";

In other words, the Earth existed BEFORE the "Let There Be Light" Big Bang part.

Also:

11 And God said, "Let the earth put forth vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind, upon the earth." And it was so.

then 10 verses LATER:

21So God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarm, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind.

In other words, contrary to the fossil record, Genesis says fruit trees existed BEFORE any animals did.

And all these mistakes are in the first tiny fraction of Genesis. There are many more.

The Bible creation myth, apart from disagreeing with equally (in)valid creation myths of other cultures, contains GLARING non-truths as evidenced by the geologic and fossil record found all across the Earth.

So, why believe it if not simply for the sake of supporting dogma even in the face of overwhelming evidence that it's not true?? In the words of my former Creationist neighbor: "the fossil record is a lie fabricated and placed in the ground by Satan to mislead people and send them to hell". :shrug:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Chilling Look Inside The Mind Of A Suicide Bomber [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #6627844 - 03/02/07 11:55 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
The real problem is that there are billions of sophisticated apes living on a gigantic rock that is floating around in a damn near infinite amount of nothingness.




I think the real problem is these apes aren't nearly as sophisticated as they would like to believe. :stars:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineFospher
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Re: Chilling Look Inside The Mind Of A Suicide Bomber [Re: Diploid]
    #6627916 - 03/02/07 12:26 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Evolution is about selection. It has nothing to do with chance.




Check your name - a diploid organism implies that it's allele frquency in genetic drift, from one generation to the next, are a statistical effect of chance.

Quote:


It's this acceptance of their pastor's ignorance and misconceptions about evolution that keeps creationists in the dark about the beauty of nature. That and their steadfast refusal to actually read a biology book to understand what evolution is before pooh poohing it away as nonsense.




Read my previous post to answer that question.

Quote:


This is not unlike how bone-headed government people (George Bush, for example) insist that marijuana is dangerous, highly addictive, and has no medical uses of any kind (this is what DEA Schedule 1 means) while refusing to read the giant pile of evidence that clearly says otherwise.




Oh I know what you dopefiends are like. I am not able to see your eyes because of tea shades. Your knuckles are white from inner tension and pants will be crusted with semen from constantly jacking off when you can't find a rape victim.


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010001100100001001000101!


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Chilling Look Inside The Mind Of A Suicide Bomber [Re: Fospher]
    #6627965 - 03/02/07 12:46 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Oh I know what you dopefiends are like. I am not able to see your eyes because of tea shades. Your knuckles are white from inner tension and pants will be crusted with semen from constantly jacking off when you can't find a rape victim.

Uh... what?? :confused:

You've been smoking marijuana, haven't you.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineFospher
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Male

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Posts: 2,033
Loc: The Netherlands
Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
Re: Chilling Look Inside The Mind Of A Suicide Bomber [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #6627966 - 03/02/07 12:46 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:

That would be nice. I don't see why this God person would make it any more complex than that, unless he is an elitist schmuck.




LOL, there's no step-by-step instruction for enlightment my friend, unlike many religions would like you to believe (Judaism & Islam most of all).

Quote:


I can see a painting. God, on the other hand, is something that has to be accepted on the basis of faith.




There's a painting by our good friend Vincent van Gogh which depicts a pair of worn-down peasant's shoes.



Now you can say, Gogh just painted a pair of shoes, however, as Heidegger implies, these shoes are not just footwear, but the 'equipmental equipmentability' of their use, implying us to delve into the life of the peasant and hard work. What you dont understand is that believing or disbelieving in God is not a circle that you bubble in with a #2 pencil, but a hardwired connection to the abstract. You see and live with God through mystic revelation, it's not following a set of rites or proving or disproving his existence.


--------------------
010001100100001001000101!


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Offlineguri
Master of theimprobablitydrive

Registered: 01/10/04
Posts: 576
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Re: Chilling Look Inside The Mind Of A Suicide Bomber [Re: Fospher]
    #6628006 - 03/02/07 01:03 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Fospher said:

Also, you have to interpret the Bible.




interpret the bible? kinda sounds like interpreting the koran. It's this sort of thought process that leads to the violence in the first place. Although both these books have thier violent sections both also have thier peacefull sections.

Because of these contrasts, i propose a new MAN LAW: If your religion contradicts itself, go with the less violent of the two choices. Or just decide its bunk from the start, and take up science fiction writting and start your own religion.


For a pretty good way of explaining the differences between natural selection, evolution, genetic drift and that sorts of things check out this website, its pretty easy reading. http://www.utm.edu/departments/cens/biology/rirwin/391/391DriftFlow.htm


--------------------
"If you don't believe drugs have done good things for us, then go home and burn all your records, all your tapes, and all your CDs because every one of those artists who have made brilliant music and enhanced your lives? The Beatles were so fucking high, they let Ringo sing a few songs." --Bill Hicks


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: Chilling Look Inside The Mind Of A Suicide Bomber [Re: Fospher]
    #6628080 - 03/02/07 01:34 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Creation in Islam is probably the most science-friendly


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Chilling Look Inside The Mind Of A Suicide Bomber [Re: Diploid]
    #6628261 - 03/02/07 02:31 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Diplo, evolution is about selection AND mutation.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: Chilling Look Inside The Mind Of A Suicide Bomber [Re: Fospher]
    #6628489 - 03/02/07 03:49 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

a diploid organism implies that it's allele frquency in genetic drift, from one generation to the next, are a statistical effect of chance.




Chromosome crossover during meiosis does not happen by chance, it is part of the survival mechanism of genes.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Posts: 4,587
Re: Chilling Look Inside The Mind Of A Suicide Bomber [Re: Fospher]
    #6628538 - 03/02/07 04:03 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Now you can say, Gogh just painted a pair of shoes, however, as Heidegger implies, these shoes are not just footwear, but the 'equipmental equipmentability' of their use, implying us to delve into the life of the peasant and hard work. What you dont understand is that believing or disbelieving in God is not a circle that you bubble in with a #2 pencil, but a hardwired connection to the abstract. You see and live with God through mystic revelation, it's not following a set of rites or proving or disproving his existence.




(Heidegger was a Nazi bastard... interesting philosopher though. )
That is still a matter of interpretation and speculation. Just about anyone can come along and interpret that painting in whatever way they prefer.

Abstraction implies phenomenal non-existence. If God is an abstraction, just a confusing way of viewing reality, then we shouldn't need to believe in him for any reason other than aesthetics. God doesn't seem to have any physicals effects that can be observed.


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