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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: suicide [Re: Jellric]
    #2595340 - 04/24/04 12:01 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

No matter what your belief system, it does not end your pain.

There is no evidence for this other than your say-so.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleJellric
altered statesman

Registered: 11/08/98
Posts: 2,261
Loc: non-local
Re: suicide [Re: Swami]
    #2595804 - 04/24/04 02:44 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I think everyone understands that. Most of what people post here is not personal knowledge.
Such is the nature of this forum.


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I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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InvisibleJellric
altered statesman

Registered: 11/08/98
Posts: 2,261
Loc: non-local
Re: suicide [Re: bert]
    #2595829 - 04/24/04 03:02 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I am just perturbed

Try switching to non-caffeinated coffee. Or meditation perhaps.

Jellric was being extremely imprecise in his criticism of suicide. i.e. Bringing into play 'New Age' religion, which doesn't exist in the form that he attempted to invoke for his argument.

I didn't specify a form of New Age religion. Hopefully most people understand the gist of what I was saying. And that is the fact that the majority of the worlds religions do not support suicide. One can agree or disagree, but it doesn't change that fact.


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I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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Invisiblebert
bodhi

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2,819
Loc: state
Re: suicide [Re: Jellric]
    #2595893 - 04/24/04 03:30 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

You said 'no matter what your belief system'. This makes your statement false whether I agree or disagree.


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Persons denying the existence of robots may be robots themselves.


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Invisible2Experimental
Male User Gallery
Registered: 01/16/03
Posts: 18,073
Re: suicide [Re: Swami]
    #2595907 - 04/24/04 03:34 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

"There is no evidence for this other than your say-so"

Is there any evidence for anything except say so?

kthx please continue the wonderful debate


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Offlinefaelr
the darkestlight

Registered: 04/12/04
Posts: 138
Loc: st.louis
Last seen: 18 years, 4 months
Re: suicide [Re: bert]
    #2595924 - 04/24/04 03:40 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

bert said:
Edit: I'll throw up another example. What about going into battle knowing that one will die? That is also a form of suicide, but it is condoned and promoted by society as a whole. It's not as cut and dry as one may be led to believe.




both examples only show one side of the tale. i know i'm not going into the battlefield because it's a kill or be killed situation....i don't like those odds, they seem wrong for both parties. i think more of an exceptable risk than it is acceptable and with all the anti-war rallies going on these days i'm not sure war is exceptable anymore.

a personal belief of mine is that everything is cut and dry, everything else is an excuse. too many people like to pass the buck these days.


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where i walk, i walk alone. when i fight, i fight alone. i am no one and i am nothing. yet all is that i am.


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Invisiblebert
bodhi

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2,819
Loc: state
Re: suicide [Re: faelr]
    #2595951 - 04/24/04 03:51 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Well, you didn't directly answer my example. Also, I don't know why you are using the words 'acceptable' and 'exceptable' interchangeably. Exceptable isn't even a word. Let me put up on last example in an effort to show you that everything isn't cut and dry. Let's say you had to sacrifice your life in order to save that of a loved one. Would you do it? Is suicide unacceptable in every single situation?


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Persons denying the existence of robots may be robots themselves.


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InvisibleJellric
altered statesman

Registered: 11/08/98
Posts: 2,261
Loc: non-local
Re: suicide [Re: bert]
    #2595956 - 04/24/04 03:54 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Okay. 99.99% of the worlds religions and belief systems do not support suicide.

Happy now? :smile:


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I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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Invisiblebert
bodhi

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2,819
Loc: state
Re: suicide [Re: Jellric]
    #2595958 - 04/24/04 03:54 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

:smile:


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Persons denying the existence of robots may be robots themselves.


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Invisible2Experimental
Male User Gallery
Registered: 01/16/03
Posts: 18,073
Re: suicide [Re: bert]
    #2595959 - 04/24/04 03:55 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I think we need to define suicide...'suicide' for a loved one, or a 'cause' i do not consider suicide... suicide is killing yourself for no other reason then your own pain, mental or pysical. that is all IMO


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Offlinefaelr
the darkestlight

Registered: 04/12/04
Posts: 138
Loc: st.louis
Last seen: 18 years, 4 months
Re: suicide [Re: bert]
    #2596070 - 04/24/04 04:38 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

bert said:
Well, you didn't directly answer my example.  Also, I don't know why you are using the words 'acceptable' and 'exceptable' interchangeably.  Exceptable isn't even a word.  Let me put up on last example in an effort to show you that everything isn't cut and dry.  Let's say you had to sacrifice your life in order to save that of a loved one.  Would you do it?  Is suicide unacceptable in every single situation?



you only give one sided views because you only understand half the truth! and your still not adding every variable to the equation. it comes down to specifics. you give none.

i mispelled a word.....who gives a flying fuck!:lol: if you're going to attack my ego, atleast do it in complete sentences!:razz::lol:

why is the person in that situation anyway? how did this situation come about? it's not my place to control someones destiny. if they are destined to die right in front of me, that's their story. also getting shot means that there is a chance you may die and is in no way inevitable.

with suicide death is inevitable and if you survive then hopefully you suffer the consquence of constant humiliation.:lol:

to know the truth properly you must understand both sides of the coin.

loved ones? i walk alone.


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where i walk, i walk alone. when i fight, i fight alone. i am no one and i am nothing. yet all is that i am.


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Offlinefaelr
the darkestlight

Registered: 04/12/04
Posts: 138
Loc: st.louis
Last seen: 18 years, 4 months
Re: suicide [Re: Jellric]
    #2596076 - 04/24/04 04:40 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Jellric said:
Okay. 99.99% of the worlds religions and belief systems do not support suicide.

Happy now? :smile:


anyone remember that cult in san diego that saw some comet and killed themselves!!!:lol::lol:hahhaha:lol
i forgot the details but, i think the men castrated themselves too.:lol:


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where i walk, i walk alone. when i fight, i fight alone. i am no one and i am nothing. yet all is that i am.


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Invisiblebert
bodhi

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2,819
Loc: state
Re: suicide [Re: faelr]
    #2596167 - 04/24/04 05:21 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I do write in complete sentences. I am done here anyways. If you want to humiliate suicide victims. Fine. However, that is by no means a healthy way to deal with a depressed person who is mentally unstable. In fact, degrading them about their suicide experience will most likely lead to even more mental pain and probably another suicide attempt. I only brought up your word usage/spelling because I couldn't understand the sentence you were trying to convey.


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Persons denying the existence of robots may be robots themselves.


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Offlinefaelr
the darkestlight

Registered: 04/12/04
Posts: 138
Loc: st.louis
Last seen: 18 years, 4 months
Re: suicide [Re: bert]
    #2596192 - 04/24/04 05:30 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

the only victims of suicide are the one who are still here.


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where i walk, i walk alone. when i fight, i fight alone. i am no one and i am nothing. yet all is that i am.


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OfflineBleaK
paradox
Registered: 06/24/02
Posts: 1,583
Last seen: 8 years, 9 months
Re: suicide [Re: bert]
    #2596734 - 04/24/04 08:11 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

bert said:
I do write in complete sentences. I am done here anyways. If you want to humiliate suicide victims. Fine. However, that is by no means a healthy way to deal with a depressed person who is mentally unstable. In fact, degrading them about their suicide experience will most likely lead to even more mental pain and probably another suicide attempt. I only brought up your word usage/spelling because I couldn't understand the sentence you were trying to convey.




health and mental stability are by no means static terms. my definition of either will differ from yours.


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"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


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OfflineFrog
Warrior
Female User Gallery

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 4,284
Loc: The Zero Point Field
Last seen: 9 years, 8 months
Re: suicide [Re: bert]
    #2596901 - 04/24/04 08:56 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I don't think anyone here was specifically downgrading or humiliating any would-be victims of suicide. I think most of us agree that committing suicide is a weak way of dealing with life's problems. Well, some of us agreed on that, anyways.

If I came up on a survivor of a suicide attempt, I wouldn't humiliate him/her. They need encouragement, support, and a damned good counselor in order to develop the strength they need in order to maneuver life. Life ain't easy.

I had an experience in my life where I felt like committing suicide back in my late 20s, early 30s. I got into some serious counseling after that. Suicide is not an answer. And yes, it takes a certain type of bravery to stop one's life. But it's still weak, compared to living and dealing with life and it's stuff.


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineSource
Remainder of anUnbalancedEquation
Male

Registered: 07/28/03
Posts: 667
Loc: Outer Darkness
Last seen: 8 years, 9 months
Re: suicide [Re: Jellric]
    #2596943 - 04/24/04 09:07 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

when he was 4 years old, my brother-in-law watched his father blow his brains all over the living room floor. He's still punishing himself for it.

You see, suicide doesn't end suffering. It doesn't lay the burden down, it lays it on the back of others. All that suffering is carried on by those who loved you.


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What you're searching for is what's searching.


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OfflineFrog
Warrior
Female User Gallery

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 4,284
Loc: The Zero Point Field
Last seen: 9 years, 8 months
Re: suicide [Re: Source]
    #2596978 - 04/24/04 09:17 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Someone close to me just lost someone. At first they thought it was suicide. At first, before they found out it was an accidental death, my friend took the blame for the death on himself. Up to the time of death, he had been justified in distancing himself from this person, because of the way this person behaved. Very badly. After the death, suddenly the guilt came in..."If only I had dont his..." "If only I had done that..." It was terrible to watch. I was very glad when the truth of the death came out. Then, I let him have it for trying to take the blame when it was believed to be a suicide.

Everyone blames themselves when a suicide occurs. What we should have, could have, would have done, if only....

That's what is also bullshit about a person killing him/herself. It's not just weak. It's selfish. Rather than fix their problems, they leave more problems behind for the people that love them to deal with.


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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InvisibleRavus
Not an EggshellWalker
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/19/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
Re: suicide [Re: Frog]
    #2596999 - 04/24/04 09:28 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I wonder how many cases are thought of as suicide, but were really just accidents. That would be horrible for all concerned.

And vice versa, too. It's impossible to tell suicide statistics, because it's so hard to tell sometimes what really was suicide. And if we tell the family it was suicide when it really wasn't, it's going to be hard on the family and ruin the person's reputation.

That's why there should be a law that says all people committing or attempting suicide have to write a note. If they don't obey the law they can be fined hundreds of dollars. This'll solve the problem


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineFrog
Warrior
Female User Gallery

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 4,284
Loc: The Zero Point Field
Last seen: 9 years, 8 months
Re: suicide [Re: Ravus]
    #2597017 - 04/24/04 09:33 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

:lol:  Yes, their estate can be fined when it's probated.  Unless, of course, they die insolvent.  Is that the right word?  But then, of course, we make the family pay!!

But that's what my friend did.  He wasn't going to tell his children that it was a suicide, when it was thought it was suicide, so that they wouldn't have any guilt feelings. 

I never thought about that..."what if a suicide was really just an accident"...on a larger scale.  Holy crap. 

Maybe there should be a law that a suicide can't be determined a suicide unless there's a note.  No note, then someone must have killed him/her.  Then, we put those closest to the suicide on trial for murder.  :grin:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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