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Offlinelucid
Jack's AlteredConsciousness

Registered: 03/29/03
Posts: 6,319
Loc: up on the bidet
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
SUICIDE & HELL !!!!!
    #3375154 - 11/17/04 06:18 PM (12 years, 19 days ago)

...now there's an attention grabber  :smirk:
seriously tho, I wanna know your thoughts.
My family is Muslim (not orthodox at all - in fact
my mom keeps telling me n my brother to only have
temporary relationships and not get attached...after
she's seen the pain my divorce n relationships and my
brother's relationships have caused), and my mom
firmly believes that suicide is a one way ticket
to "Hell" (eternal torment). I've argued and debated
the direct contradiction this implies with a benevolant
God (which she also believes in), but she has an amazing
ability to deny and maintain askewed logic. I've talked
with a bunch of folks (relatively non religious) about this
and gotten the same reply - that suicide is just plain wrong.
Most people get frightened when u broach the subject of
suicide...it seems like one of the most taboo subjects on
the planet. But I find it quite interesting (call me
morbid :smirk: ).
One of the things that also makes me wonder is that people can
be so open minded, but they shut down all thoughts about
the subject of suicide.  I was watching a NLP session about
"Changing your Beliefs" and Rich Blander was talking about
instilling more useful Beliefs and getting rid of "unuseful"
ones, and he said that many Psychologists cring at the idea
cauze they say "if u could change Beliefs then u wouldn't
know what to believe". It made me wonder what NLPers would say
about instilling the belief that ending ones life when one
desired was OK (something tells me that they would cringe
at this idea).
so yea, I wanna know your thoughts... I mean, yes it would
cause others pain (if u have loved ones that is), but then
it's tough living ones life constantly considering other peoples
pains... I mean at some point u have to think about what u
want right ? that's why people end relationships, convert
from their parents religion to a different one or become
athiests, etc etc...
I figured I'd open a can of worms here  :grin:
let the discourse beginnnn....


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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Offlinelucid
Jack's AlteredConsciousness

Registered: 03/29/03
Posts: 6,319
Loc: up on the bidet
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Re: SUICIDE & HELL !!!!! [Re: lucid]
    #3375330 - 11/17/04 06:52 PM (12 years, 19 days ago)

man this subject really is taboo... no one has anything
to say about it here either :eek:


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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Offlinezahudulallah
Sexual Heretic

Registered: 10/21/04
Posts: 10,579
Loc: Tokyo, Japan
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Re: SUICIDE & HELL !!!!! [Re: lucid]
    #3375354 - 11/17/04 06:56 PM (12 years, 19 days ago)

I need to be more obedient to your parents, kaffir boy.  :wink:


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Invisibledblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: SUICIDE & HELL !!!!! [Re: zahudulallah]
    #3375426 - 11/17/04 07:07 PM (12 years, 19 days ago)

I think it was mainly the Europeans of old that had this cultural taboo which spread to America and elsewhere they colonized. Take the Japanese for instance. In their culture, they even go so far as to have ritual suicide. You can commit suicide if you lost a battle because of something you did. You can even commit suicide to bring shame on someone. In Europe, if someone insulted you, you would challenge them to a duel, and then one or both of you would die. In Japan, if someone insulted you, you could commit suicide and bring shame upon the insulter. Quite frankly this strikes me as being largely more effective (not to say that I really think suicide is a GOOD thing!). However, they also experience less guilt. If someone commits suicide, then there is a sadness, but nothing like in the western hemisphere, where many people who knew the person who commited suicide would feel some personal responsibility.

Assuming I remember any of my history.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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Offlinelucid
Jack's AlteredConsciousness

Registered: 03/29/03
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Re: SUICIDE & HELL !!!!! [Re: zahudulallah]
    #3375431 - 11/17/04 07:08 PM (12 years, 19 days ago)

u meant
"you need to be more obedient to your parents, kaffir boy"
:wink:
I'm just wondering about the whole taboo subject in general, not
just from a religious perspective but also from an athiestic
perspective - I mean athiests will say the same thing, they'll
say it's wrong...somehow... but when u get down to the nitty
gritty of the why's there are no answers...


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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Offlinelucid
Jack's AlteredConsciousness

Registered: 03/29/03
Posts: 6,319
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Re: SUICIDE & HELL !!!!! [Re: dblaney]
    #3375443 - 11/17/04 07:10 PM (12 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:

dblaney18 said:
I think it was mainly the Europeans of old that had this cultural taboo which spread to America and elsewhere they colonized. Take the Japanese for instance. In their culture, they even go so far as to have ritual suicide. You can commit suicide if you lost a battle because of something you did. You can even commit suicide to bring shame on someone. In Europe, if someone insulted you, you would challenge them to a duel, and then one or both of you would die. In Japan, if someone insulted you, you could commit suicide and bring shame upon the insulter. Quite frankly this strikes me as being largely more effective (not to say that I really think suicide is a GOOD thing!). However, they also experience less guilt. If someone commits suicide, then there is a sadness, but nothing like in the western hemisphere, where many people who knew the person who commited suicide would feel some personal responsibility.

Assuming I remember any of my history.




very interesting, I wasn't aware of this. Any Japanese folks
out there care to elaborate ? or anyone who knows more about
this ?


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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Invisibledblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: SUICIDE & HELL !!!!! [Re: lucid]
    #3375483 - 11/17/04 07:15 PM (12 years, 19 days ago)

Well from my own viewpoint, suicide is looked down on by society for the wrong reasons. It seems taking any life, even your own, is just plain wrong.

I think however, that while it may not be wrong per se, it is a shame to both the person who commits suicide, and to society. Life, while definitely not always, or even sometimes often, fun, it is important to experience life, make decisions, improve upon the human project. Suicide is 'the easy way out'...but it also deprives one of experiencing the rest of their natural flesh life.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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Offlinezahudulallah
Sexual Heretic

Registered: 10/21/04
Posts: 10,579
Loc: Tokyo, Japan
Last seen: 11 years, 6 months
Re: SUICIDE & HELL !!!!! [Re: lucid]
    #3375509 - 11/17/04 07:19 PM (12 years, 19 days ago)

I don't know why an atheist would think suicide wrong... wouldn't it just be cutting to the chase for them.

For some people who kill themselves it's not a big deal... for others it is.

Few years ago some guy hung himself in my hometown when I lived there. He apparently wrote on the mirror "I love you Jesus, please forgive me."

It all boils down to God I think. Atheists who are suicidal are likely to make less a big about it to themselves... for a religious person, they're putting all their eggs in one basket hoping for mercy at the other end of the splice. Suicide is just a single act though. It doesn't determine if one is righteous or unrighteous. Good and bad people do themselves in. Some people kill themselves for obviously unbearable reasons (If Chris Reeves went through with his suicide after his accident, most of the world would be like "Can you blame him?"), others for stupid reasons. And then you have the weirdo suicides in Japan and what not... I don't know what's up with those.


--------------------


Edited by zahudulallah (11/17/04 07:29 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: SUICIDE & HELL !!!!! [Re: zahudulallah]
    #3375837 - 11/17/04 08:15 PM (12 years, 19 days ago)

http://www.near-death.com/suicide.html  :heart:

bout as close as you are going to get to the answers you seek, without actually killing yourself, personally, and coming back to tell how it was. :sun:


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InvisibleJellric
altered statesman

Registered: 11/08/98
Posts: 2,261
Loc: non-local
Re: SUICIDE & HELL !!!!! [Re: lucid]
    #3375979 - 11/17/04 08:50 PM (12 years, 19 days ago)

I think people say that suicides go to hell for the same reason they tell their kids not to masturbate because you'll get HPS (Hairy Palm Syndrome) or don't smoke ganja because you'll grow man-boobs. They really, really don't want you to do it and are willing to lie or at stretch the truth to keep you from doing it.

The thought of suicide has certainly gotten many people through a hard day, but if you believe in any kind of moral order to the universe, and I do, you could never do it or condone it.


--------------------
I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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Offlineoceansize
fuckin' right.

Registered: 08/31/04
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Re: SUICIDE & HELL !!!!! [Re: zahudulallah]
    #3376020 - 11/17/04 09:00 PM (12 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:


I don't know why an atheist would think suicide wrong... wouldn't it just be cutting to the chase for them.




So if life itself has no purpose, other than waiting to die to meet your maker? Maybe allowing you a lil time to suck up to the big guy by mocking the infidels?

Lucid, the reason atheists may say suicide is wrong is really the same a religious person holds- A natural aversion to it of biological origin. Sure, a Christian may say suicide is the express lane to hell, but that is almost an afterthought. The taboo is really psychological hardwired.


--------------------
"And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh." - Friedrich Nietzsche



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Offlinezahudulallah
Sexual Heretic

Registered: 10/21/04
Posts: 10,579
Loc: Tokyo, Japan
Last seen: 11 years, 6 months
Re: SUICIDE & HELL !!!!! [Re: oceansize]
    #3376032 - 11/17/04 09:03 PM (12 years, 19 days ago)

Mocking infidels?

Hehe..


--------------------


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Invisibleshroomydan
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Re: SUICIDE & HELL !!!!! [Re: lucid]
    #3377214 - 11/18/04 01:59 AM (12 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:

lucid said: my mom
firmly believes that suicide is a one way ticket
to "Hell" (eternal torment). I've argued and debated
the direct contradiction this implies with a benevolant
God (which she also believes in), but she has an amazing
ability to deny and maintain askewed logic.





Here is some logic:

God is benevolent. However, he creates us with the freedom to reject him. If we loose the ability to make choices at death, then an act of suicide would be the final choice. It amounts to throwing the gift of life back in God's face, rejecting communion with him. This final act of rejection of God could not be repented of if the ability to act ends at death. A benevolent God who respects the freedom he has given to men and women could allow the soul of the person who rejects communion with him to flee into the darkness by his own free choice; this is hell.

Here's a version from the Muslim perspective (I think, I'm not Muslim.)

We belong to God, not to ourselves. God values people and forbids us to murder one another; The crime of murder can warrant damnation. Suicide is the act of murdering self. We are not allowed to murder any of God's people including ourselves.


Here's the Catholic version.

God sends no one to hell. People chose heaven when they chose to love God and to love neighbor as self; Heaven is a giant love fest among God and all the saints(holy people and angels in heaven). Those who do not love God, neighbor, and self would find the communion of heaven repugnant and flee from it at death. The only "place" to flee is hell. Jesus describes this in one parable as being forever locked outside of a party that we were invited to attend but refused the invitation. What makes hell so bad is the only other people there are those who also chose to hate instead of to love. They make poor companions.


The choice can be viewed in two ways: the "final option" and the "fundamental option."

Final option theory says that at the moment of death the soul stands before God and chooses once and for all to be united with him and all the blessed, to move into the light accepting that every thought and act will be known by all, or to reject this unity, prefering to flee into the darkness away from God's presence.

Fundamental option theory says that the sum total of a person's life determines the the choice for or against God. Though out life a person makes countless choices which direct him towards or away from God. Some acts radically move our orientation away from God; they are called mortal sins. A mortal sin is an act which changes the souls fundamental option from love to hate, from communion with God to rejection of him. Fortunately these can be forgiven and a course correction made back toward love and God. This theory asserts that the choice of heaven or hell is made while we are breathing, not at some point after death.

I hold along with Pope JP II that both are correct. The final option and the fundamental option are the same thing. When we stand before God to chose heaven or hell we will be convicted and offered mercy and love. If throughout our lives we have accepted love and mercy and been loving and merciful to others, then we will likely chose communion with God and enter heaven. If throughout our lives we have rejected God then we will likely reject him again.

Suicide is a grave matter which changes the fundamental option away form God. While it is possible that the person who kills himself could immediately repent at the final judgment and choose to love God, neighbor, and self , it seems unlikely as his last living act is an act of hatred for self.

That being said, the catholic religion does not teach that anyone is definitely in hell. This is because, as you noted, God is benevolent and infinitely merciful. This benevolence and mercy, however, does not prevent him from allowing us to reject the invitation to his party.

Don't kill yourself. It's bad.
Life is good.

Peace, love, and shroomyness.  :smile:  :heart: :mushroom2:


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: SUICIDE & HELL !!!!! [Re: lucid]
    #3378284 - 11/18/04 09:56 AM (12 years, 18 days ago)

And now some philospohic insight:
I think, the ones who commit suicide suffer the most. But if they are healthy, why should those, who know the suffering the best, should give way to that suffering by killing themselves, for that this suffering rages on and on to other people ?
In my opinion, if you are healthy and suffering, don't kill yourself before you make the life you expect to live. Just do it and those who block your way will suffer !
If those, who committed suicide would have lived on, the world would be a better place for sure ! Because it's them, who struggle against that evil ! And it's often our fault that we don't help them fighting against that.
And if they get the rock rolling, the idea of suicide suddenly goes far away from them. Hell is, they gave up too fast and wasted their chances.
Just a perspective that has prooven right for me.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
........................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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OfflineGomp
¡(Bound to·(O))be free!
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Re: SUICIDE & HELL !!!!! [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #3378324 - 11/18/04 10:06 AM (12 years, 18 days ago)

"Knowing what would happen, i would gladly drain my body"
-unknown :P


--------------------


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Disclaimer!?


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: SUICIDE & HELL !!!!! [Re: Gomp]
    #3378616 - 11/18/04 11:16 AM (12 years, 18 days ago)

But then you whould not have the chance for a change...

"Don't change for a chance"
-the empty books |9


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
........................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Offlinegoob
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Registered: 10/27/04
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Re: SUICIDE & HELL !!!!! [Re: shroomydan]
    #3379077 - 11/18/04 01:00 PM (12 years, 18 days ago)

I think shroomydan's post coincides a lot with my thoughts on the matter except for a lot of the umm grandiosity...

I try and simplify it and think that suicide means we do it all over again, which may not be a bad idea if we want to be kids again and maybe experience this world differently.

When I get really scared I'm tempted, and I see that temptation as a means for the god of this world to keep me around.

Everyone knows I have screwy ideas about the god of this world, who I'm beginning to think didn't actualy get kicked out but actualy retired (into the wilderness) because he/she didn't agree with the way things were run.

So suicide keeps us here, murder keeps us here AND we can choose to remain here again if that's what we want.

So I guess if enough of us get together and say "Look God, this this and this has got to change" then God will do it

In other words, God is as dependent on us as we are on him/her (radical huh?)

(I keep expecting lightning)


Edited by goob (11/18/04 01:56 PM)


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OfflinePedM
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Re: SUICIDE & HELL !!!!! [Re: goob]
    #3379313 - 11/18/04 02:09 PM (12 years, 18 days ago)

The Buddhist view is that a person's state of mind at the time of death heavily influences their "throwing karma", that is to say, the karma that propells them into their next life. If a person's mind is gripped by anger, hatred, despair, or other turbulent states at the time of death (as is often the case with suicidial individuals), it's this which is most likely to manifest as their experience in the next life. Beings whose minds appear only intense suffering to them on a constant basis are called hell beings. Hell beings reside in the lowest relam, the hell realm.

The hell realm is not typically considered by Buddhists to be a physical location possessing it's own innate attributes. Instead, it is the experience of intense suffering which appears to a troubled mind. Since all experiences are sustained by an individual's karma, or "mental action", the karma which appears suffering to the hell being will eventually be exhausted, and the hell being will take a more fortunate rebirth, such as here in the human realm. A birth is considered fortunate if the experience of suffering is less, and if the opportunity to acheive liberation from suffering through the practice of a spiritual discipline is available.


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OfflineThe_Visionaire
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Re: SUICIDE & HELL !!!!! [Re: Ped]
    #3379396 - 11/18/04 02:31 PM (12 years, 18 days ago)

But what if you were a happy and somewhat enlightened being and was put to jail for 30 of your best years.. Wouldn't you be more prepared for the journey into bardo by commiting suicide now, then by natural and dissillusioned death behind the dark prison walls?

Suicide is not a defiance of life, it is a defiance upon the conditions which life is given.

In a dream I once had, someone hit me with a bottle in the head and cracked open my skull :crazy: In a half-lucid state I decided "I will not accept this, this is not the kind of dream I want. I want to wake up!" And so I did. I kinda commited suicide in the dream, though...


--------------------
There are no differences between men and gods,
one blends softly causal into the other.
-Frank Herbert, Dune.


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Offlinegoob
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Registered: 10/27/04
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Re: SUICIDE & HELL !!!!! [Re: Ped]
    #3379873 - 11/18/04 04:24 PM (12 years, 18 days ago)

I think Swami is favored/loved/rewarded by God.

If God said to me "Well done my boy; In your next life you can be Swami" I'd feel complimented.


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