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Invisiblewhiterasta
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Registered: 04/09/02
Posts: 1,780
Loc: Oregon
Re: books written by S&amp;P members...who's would you read? [Re: kaiowas]
    #2800625 - 06/16/04 11:01 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

I would write a book/chapter on the fundamental nature of our perception being subjective and hence ALL inferences made from our experiences are by nature subjective no matter how many of us share a consensual event.The nature by which we percieve the world precludes objectivity due to the our subjective manner of perception.We can of couse apply objectivity to our perceptions but objectivly analysing subjective information  will automaticly be subject to intellectual bias.We can only experince objectively thought as it is NOT filtered by the subjective lens of our limited senses.but as soon as one tries to articulate the thought is becomes confined by language.So since thoughts cannot be objectively shared the only objectivity which exists is in our thought process BEFORE the concept is verbalized,once verbalized it has become a subjective choice of symbols one has chosen to represent the intangible thought, And also is heard using bio-audio pick ups(ears) which subjectively interpret the symbols.This would expose the overall lie of "objectivity" and confine it to consensual,verifiable subjective events
WR:wexican:


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To old for this place


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InvisiblePhencyclidine
Molecule

Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 2,915
Re: books written by S&amp;P members...who's would you read? [Re: whiterasta]
    #2800666 - 06/16/04 11:10 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

I believe that consciousness operates according to the principles of reality. I don't believe that consciousness is primary. Your philosophy is disturbingly similar to the fashionable postmodern nonsense popular with literary academics.


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OfflinePositronius
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Registered: 11/27/03
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Re: books written by S&amp;amp;P members...who's would you read? [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #2800737 - 06/16/04 11:26 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

so basically....you guys are going to print out your posts, photocopy them, and give them to each other.

So basically...the same thing you are doing now, but with more pollution?


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and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll


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InvisiblePhencyclidine
Molecule

Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 2,915
Re: books written by S&amp;amp;P members...who's would you read? [Re: Positronius]
    #2800785 - 06/16/04 11:38 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

LMAO

I wouldn't contribute.


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Invisiblewhiterasta
Day careobserver
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Re: books written by S&amp;P members...who's would you read? [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #2800803 - 06/16/04 11:52 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Your philosophy is disturbingly similar to the fashionable postmodern nonsense popular with literary academics. 



More quantum physicists than anyone else except perhaps a physicist/Bhuddist monk named the tulku Tarthang.Conciousness may by bound by "reality" but it's method of percieving it is a subjective biological process.

In book stores this fall  :drama:The never ending saga of S&P's reality interpreters.Where a small group of folks solve the riddles of the universe. :3stooges:
WR:wexican:


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To old for this place


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InvisiblePhencyclidine
Molecule

Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 2,915
Re: books written by S&amp;P members...who's would you read? [Re: whiterasta]
    #2801268 - 06/17/04 03:34 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Conciousness may by bound by "reality" but it's method of percieving it is a subjective biological process.




I believe that the process is an objective process. I believe that the we perceive the world in a physical (and thus) objective manner.

Your assertion is self-contradictory. An objective process cannot be simultaneously subjective.


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: books written by S&amp;P members...who's would you read? [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #2801519 - 06/17/04 07:24 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

He didn't say it was both simultaneously, did he?

He said that what we PERCEIVE to be objective thinking is actually subjective thinking because we are only capable of perceiving by way of our own perceptions.

If you've got a digital audio signal, and you choose to record it with an analog tape recorder, do you think the result is digital audio quality or analog tape recorder quality?

This should not be that hard to grasp.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: books written by S&amp;P members...who's would you read? [Re: whiterasta]
    #2801602 - 06/17/04 09:11 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

...Which is why my handfull of subjective, "ring-like-a-bell-in-the-head" telepathy experiences have the additional meaning to me of brief respite from our embodied existential isolation from one another. Psychic over-lap; momentary self-realization of oneself as consciousness, and though embodied, it is consciousness that is ontologically prior, not embodiedness. Consciousness may well exist independently of the body, but the body cannot exist without life-imparting consciousness.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: books written by S&amp;P members...who's would you read? [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #2801603 - 06/17/04 09:12 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

This should not be that hard to grasp.

I get a $0.15 royalty for each time that you use that phrase.  :cool:


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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: books written by S&amp;P members...who's would you read? [Re: Swami]
    #2801621 - 06/17/04 09:24 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

No you don't.. heh. :P

Nice try though..

Seriously though, do you say that a lot? I never noticed in particular.


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: books written by S&amp;P members...who's would you read? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #2801627 - 06/17/04 09:28 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

"Consciousness may well exist independently of the body, but the body cannot exist without life-imparting consciousness."

Can you elaborate further on what your experiences were that led you to believe this part specifically?

(Or, if I wanna be a dick about it.. "But how do you KNOW????")  :grin:


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Invisiblewhiterasta
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Re: books written by S&amp;P members...who's would you read? [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #2801778 - 06/17/04 10:41 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Most corpses are less than conscious I would say.If you have evidence of any physicaly dead bodies retaining consciousness I would say that would fundamentaly disprove Markos, otherwise his statement is a well known fact;There are no conscious corpses :wink:
WR:wexican:


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To old for this place


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: books written by S&amp;P members...who's would you read? [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #2801831 - 06/17/04 11:06 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

I have posted before on at least one very convincing OOBE that greatly contributed to my understanding of our human beinghood. From a Gnostic perspective, and better yet, from the perspective of classic Yoga philosophy which was echoed more recently by Ken Wilber, and most concisely by psychiatrist Victor Frankl, we are a "psycho-physico-spiritual" being. Aldous Huxley came to the same conclusion. The 'psychical domain' lies between the physical and the spiritual domains. Huxley called the psychical "amphibious," by which he meant that mind can identify with body or spirit in varying degrees.

OOBE's belong to the psychical domain of experience. Consciousness, still 'bounded' by an identification with 'form,' though not the material form, but an 'astral sheath' - not of physical substance, but of psychical form (Yoga description) - is able to assume a directional point of view from a location separate from the physical body. I say directional, because the perspective is one like one has, visually, while embodied (i.e., one is limited, not omnidirectional). The species of experience wherein one attains to an Omnidirectional Consciousness belongs to the spiritual domain, is purely mystical in nature, and the embodied ego is not present to the event. One's ego is not there to say "Wow! I can see Omnidirectionally!" This species of experience is affectionately called a 'PCE' - Pure Consciousness Event. This type is Unitive, Holy, and life-changing.

So, 'I Know' more than the surface structure of human beinghood (the physical body); I have been fortunate enough to experience relatively rare psychic and spiritual events which have contributed to my assumptions about human nature. They have no authority over anyone but myself, and may be considered genuine by their effects upon my values, ethics, actions and enthusiasm (Fr. entheos - inspired). Sometimes I am deluded in my dreams that I am awake. Sometimes I have lucid dreams. I have doubted physical reality once or twice on high acid doses, and when I experienced clinical depression with psychotic features when my former marriage ended. But when I had the above experiences, there was a strong sense of certitude about which 'level' I was aware of.

When St. Paul spoke of one of his experiences, he was not talking of a mere OOBE: "I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows. And I know that this man - whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows - was caught up to paradise." -2 Corinthians 11:14. Once we remove the pedestals we have put Biblical personages on, and remove the exalted title of saint that we have put on them, we can see that these experiences are actually open to anyone who is sincerely seeking. The wording above was a mystical, hence spiritual experience, not a mere psychic event. Paul says that he was absent to the body, and repeats that because he wants us to know that he was highly conscious of the Divine Presence, but only God knows what became of his body at the moment. The "amphibious" mind identified with spirit, leaving out identification with the body. This heaven-state is expected to be available to us when our bodies perish through physical death. In the absence of mystical experience, this becomes a matter of faith.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Invisiblewhiterasta
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Registered: 04/09/02
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Re: books written by S&amp;P members...who's would you read? [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #2801837 - 06/17/04 11:08 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

An objective process cannot be simultaneously subjective. 




Well since I was not clear enough an analogy...A computers has an objective functionality. Now give it a problem to solve and only feed it subjective information(feelings,impressions,etc.) and see what you get out.
My point is consciousness may well be a purely physical process,but the methods we feed it data are subjective. All our sensory input is filtered to prevent overstimulation no two people will filter the same information in exactly the same way( like a mental fingerprint).If there can never be truly identical data streams feeding even a purely objective consciousness no two will derive identical interpretations of the same data. The best we get are very close views in which we overlook or accomidate minor discrepencies between perceptions.
The classic example is asking for 6 peoples interpretations of a car wreck in which 6 differing versions are produced.
What we "call" objective is in reality a consensual sensory interpretation of a regularly occurring event,reality, of which the true nature is unknowable until by some means our "consciousness" experiences it directly and naked of the filtering system of the physical brain which by it's very nature selectively edits input according to personal criteria.
So to recap; Physicaly bound consciousness,even if an objective event, is fed data via a subjectively interpreted mental filter to prevent over stimulation.the individual differences in the mechanism preclude an objective data stream to the consciousness.
Non-bound consciousness; Can alter minor physical events by observation, is subjectively creating a consensual reality via sensual data feeding a non-physical consciousness.
WR:wexican:


--------------------
To old for this place


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Offlinedeff
mysticlove
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Re: books written by S&amp;P members...who's would you read? [Re: whiterasta]
    #2801929 - 06/17/04 11:51 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Yup, my views are very close to yours whiterasta. I think true objectivity is impossible without ceasing to exist. True objectivity would recquire nothingness to perceive the event, in which case nothingness would be unable to. It's like the tree falling in a forest when noone's around. Objectively, ys it makes a 'sound' as in a soundwave, but subjectively it is never perceived as a sound as nothing interprets it.


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Offlinefilthysock
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Re: books written by S&amp;P members...who's would you read? [Re: deff]
    #2802261 - 06/17/04 02:01 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

What about practicing meditation to aquire pure awareness and the control of mind to put aside subjective feelings?


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Magic mushrooms are not addictive, the shroomery is!


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InvisiblePhencyclidine
Molecule

Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 2,915
Re: books written by S&amp;P members...who's would you read? [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #2802547 - 06/17/04 03:23 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

JacquesCousteau said:
He didn't say it was both simultaneously, did he?[/quote[

IMO, he did, which is why I responded that way.

Quote:

He said that what we PERCEIVE to be objective thinking is actually subjective thinking because we are only capable of perceiving by way of our own perceptions.




I'm going to ignore your assertion that this is what you think he said and address your argument itself. The statement that we can only "perceive by way of our own perceptions" is a circular argument and hence quite unsound.

Quote:

If you've got a digital audio signal, and you choose to record it with an analog tape recorder, do you think the result is digital audio quality or analog tape recorder quality?




Analogue, obviously, but those recordings will still bear resemblance to the actual, physical sound which occured and was recorded. Sure, perception is not perfect, but it does represent physical reality, as your analogy just demonstrated.


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InvisiblePhencyclidine
Molecule

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Re: books written by S&amp;P members...who's would you read? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #2802555 - 06/17/04 03:25 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Consciousness may well exist independently of the body, but the body cannot exist without life-imparting consciousness.




So you believe in the primacy of experience and not of objective physical reality?


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InvisiblePhencyclidine
Molecule

Registered: 06/02/03
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Re: books written by S&amp;P members...who's would you read? [Re: whiterasta]
    #2802588 - 06/17/04 03:37 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

whiterasta said:
My point is consciousness may well be a purely physical process . . .If there can never be truly identical data streams feeding even a purely objective consciousness no two will derive identical interpretations of the same data. The best we get are very close views in which we overlook or accomidate minor discrepencies between perceptions.




I agree with this. I would not say that consciousness and perception allows us perfect access to the physical world, but that we can know the physical world even though our perception of that world is definately not perfect. I'm not trying to imply that our understanding of the world can be perfect.


Quote:

What we "call" objective is in reality a consensual sensory interpretation of a regularly occurring event,reality, of which the true nature is unknowable until by some means our "consciousness" experiences it directly and naked of the filtering system of the physical brain which by it's very nature selectively edits input according to personal criteria.




I agree and I lean toward the opinion that the true nature of the physical world or any objective event cannot be revealed (and I mean understood perfectly and absolutely true). I think that we can know some things about the physical world and I do believe that we can have objective knowledge about reality. That is, I wouldn't agree that all knowledge is subjective.

Quote:

So to recap; Physicaly bound consciousness,even if an objective event, is fed data via a subjectively interpreted mental filter to prevent over stimulation.the individual differences in the mechanism preclude an objective data stream to the consciousness.




I think I understand what you're saying. In my own case I simply consider it axiomatic that other human beings exist and can see pretty much what I see. This allows them to validate objective experiences alongside me.

If I were to not consider it axiomatic that the other human beings or any external source of computing or information could provide me with external verification of my own experiences, then I wouldn't bother debating this with you because I wouldn't consider it meaningful.

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That last line means that I wouldn't bother having a debate about whether or not all knowledge is subjective if I cannot consider it axiomatic that other humans exist (or that they are conscious, exist and experience the same reality that I do). If all knowledge is subjective, then there's no way that another human being could prove to me.


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OfflineZahid
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Re: books written by S&amp;P members...who's would you read? [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #2803326 - 06/17/04 08:27 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

JacquesCousteau said:
"Consciousness may well exist independently of the body, but the body cannot exist without life-imparting consciousness."

Can you elaborate further on what your experiences were that led you to believe this part specifically?

(Or, if I wanna be a dick about it.. "But how do you KNOW????")  :grin:




In man there is ego, the human ego and the divine ego. One can live or both can die. The divine ego is the spark from God that gives life to the conscious being, whether they are aware or not of the divine ego within. Hussein Mansoor (known as al-Hallaj) an Islamic mystic, once stated "I am God,"... he was executed for saying this as it was misunderstood by the exoterics of his time. Al Hallaj was annihilated (Faana in Arabic) in the spirit of God ( the experienced defined as gnosis/irfan/marifa'Allah), and all that existed in al-Hallaj was divine consciousness/ego. Physical matter becomes "corpse like" and non-reality in gnosis as all that exists in the eternal moment is the countenance of God. I am He whom I love, and He whom I love is I! We are two spirits dwelling in the same body. When you look at Me, you will see Allah, and when you see Allah, you will see Me!

To experience one's self as divine consciousness takes away any blind belief and transforms it into knowledge. "Know that ye are gods" Inside each man is a universe of love, an ocean that will woo a drop forever. Some people are asleep in this life, most are trying to wake up, and a few are actually awake to witness themselves as the dreamer (GOD).


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Edited by Zahid (06/17/04 08:38 PM)


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