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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: zouden]
    #9013043 - 10/01/08 11:56 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
They can make their own problems that way, but having your brother commit suicide can also bring about some problems pretty damn quick, I imagine.




Only if you choose to see them as problems.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinezouden
Neuroscientist
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Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 14 years, 3 months
Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: deCypher]
    #9013884 - 10/01/08 03:13 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

The Cypher said:
Quote:

zouden said:
> it's a courageous move; somebody didn't like the situation they were in, so they took themselves out of it, instead of compromising with it.

WTF? Since when is giving up more courageous than dealing with your problems? It's the complete opposite of courage, if anything.




It's pretty damn courageous to throw off your natural survival instinct in favor of a complete unknown--the person committing suicide is essentially casting their life to the fates for the possibility of never existing again, getting reborn into a lower form of life, or worse yet: burning in the fires of Hell for all of eternity because suicide is a sin.




It's not some D&D game where if they don't like their character they can just reroll. You deal with what you've got, and anyone who gives up just because they think they're unhappy is weak and selfish, IMHO.

Quote:

Only if you choose to see them as problems.




The same would apply to the person considering suicide. They should stop seeing their life as a series of problems.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see


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OfflineMushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
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Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: zouden]
    #9013903 - 10/01/08 03:18 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

It's not some D&D game where if they don't like their character they can just reroll. You deal with what you've got, and anyone who gives up just because they think they're unhappy is weak and selfish, IMHO.




Why does one have to keep on living, if they don't wish to? Can you perhaps bring a universal argument that proves that choosing to live is the answer to everything?
What about those who expect that their loved ones shouldn't kill themselves just because they should consider how much it would hurt them? Couldn't that be considered selfish?

Quote:

The same would apply to the person considering suicide. They should stop seeing their life as a series of problems.




Why should they do that?


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Invisiblederanger
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Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: zouden]
    #9013919 - 10/01/08 03:21 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

You deal with what you've got, and anyone who gives up just because they think they're unhappy is weak and selfish, IMHO.

have you ever had to grow up to a very abusive drunk father?

not all children are immune to negative emotional states... in fact children are quite susceptible, and when abused it grows with them and becomes a constant battle imo.  some would just prefer not to live, i don't blame them.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: deranger]
    #9013938 - 10/01/08 03:25 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

I agree.  No one is obligated to continue living.  It is overstepping to think that we can sit in judgment regarding someone else's decision to end their life.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: zouden]
    #9013952 - 10/01/08 03:27 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
But suicide turns your own problems into other peoples' problems. That's why it's so selfish.




But continuing to live & wishing you were dead will not become a problem for your loved ones?  How could that possibly be true?  It is selfish to live, it is selfish to die.  Humans are selfish, so what?


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Offlinezouden
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Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Veritas]
    #9013995 - 10/01/08 03:36 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

>I agree.  No one is obligated to continue living.

Agreed.

> It is overstepping to think that we can sit in judgment regarding someone else's decision to end their life.

It depends whether it's a good decision made with full understanding of the pros and cons. I will concede that there are times when it might be the best option. My issue is that most of the time it's not a good decision - it's usually young people, who haven't had the experience to know that life can get better, or they're oblivious to the effect their death would have on people around them.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see


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InvisibleVeritas
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Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: zouden]
    #9014014 - 10/01/08 03:42 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Actually, the age group with the highest rate of suicide is those 65 and older. 

Either way, is it really up to us to decide whether someone's suicide was a good decision?  Humans make stupid decisions all the time, and many of these decisions result in their death and/or the death of others.  How is suicide any more or less acceptable than smoking cigarettes, eating fatty foods, being sedentary, speeding, driving while drunk, etc...etc...?

I think it would be terrific if the stigma against seeking counseling did not exist, and if all the counselors were highly skilled and empathic, and if parents noticed when their kids were depressed, and so on.  Not only would this help the few kids who would otherwise commit suicide go on to live an enjoyable life, it might help those who would otherwise have gone on living in misery.


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Invisiblederanger
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Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Veritas]
    #9014055 - 10/01/08 03:51 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Actually, the age group with the highest rate of suicide is those 65 and older.




:eek: wow that's a new one.


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Offlinezouden
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Veritas]
    #9014121 - 10/01/08 04:02 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Actually, the age group with the highest rate of suicide is those 65 and older. 



Wow, you learn something new every day :thumbup:

Quote:

Either way, is it really up to us to decide whether someone's suicide was a good decision?  Humans make stupid decisions all the time, and many of these decisions result in their death and/or the death of others.  How is suicide any more or less acceptable than smoking cigarettes, eating fatty foods, being sedentary, speeding, driving while drunk, etc...etc...?



Those are risky behaviours, but much less risky than suicide. You can always quit smoking when you see the error of your ways.

Quote:

I think it would be terrific if the stigma against seeking counseling did not exist, and if all the counselors were highly skilled and empathic, and if parents noticed when their kids were depressed, and so on.  Not only would this help the few kids who would otherwise commit suicide go on to live an enjoyable life, it might help those who would otherwise have gone on living in misery. 



Amen.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see


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InvisibledeCypher
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Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: zouden]
    #9014161 - 10/01/08 04:11 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

This is your life, and it's ending one minute at a time.

Suicide simply puts some temporal certainty into an uncertain event.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Posts: 11,089
Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: deranger]
    #9014212 - 10/01/08 04:21 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

The 45-54 year old age group had the greatest increase in suicides from 1999-2004.  (20% as compared to 2% in the 15-24 year old age group.)

By the numbers, the most-likely person to commit suicide in the U.S. is a white male aged 45 or older.


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Invisibleawesomebastard
Lost
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Registered: 12/16/07
Posts: 4,891
Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: zouden]
    #9014259 - 10/01/08 04:29 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
> It is overstepping to think that we can sit in judgment regarding someone else's decision to end their life.

It depends whether it's a good decision made with full understanding of the pros and cons. I will concede that there are times when it might be the best option. My issue is that most of the time it's not a good decision - it's usually young people, who haven't had the experience to know that life can get better, or they're oblivious to the effect their death would have on people around them.



What constitutes a good decision?
Whatever it is it's an opinion not fact.

You have no idea what someone else is going through.
To call someone selfish for killing themselves is ignorance at it's worst.


--------------------
"Absolute certainty is a privilege of uneducated minds and fanatics." ~ C.J. Keyser



Mr. Cypher said: "I just tell the girls how sexy I am and their panties melt."


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
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Registered: 04/01/07
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Veritas]
    #9014275 - 10/01/08 04:32 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Uh oh... :shiftyeyes:


--------------------


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Offlinezouden
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Last seen: 14 years, 3 months
Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: awesomebastard]
    #9014301 - 10/01/08 04:37 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

>What constitutes a good decision?

A decision made with full knowledge and after proper consideration of the options. It's the difference between good, bad, or wrong. Wrong is when you made the wrong choice. Bad is when you made an uneducated choice.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see


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Invisibleawesomebastard
Lost
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Registered: 12/16/07
Posts: 4,891
Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: zouden]
    #9014353 - 10/01/08 04:45 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

but you say that it's "wrong" to make a "bad" decision.

right wrong good and bad all sound like opinions to me.


--------------------
"Absolute certainty is a privilege of uneducated minds and fanatics." ~ C.J. Keyser



Mr. Cypher said: "I just tell the girls how sexy I am and their panties melt."


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Offlinezouden
Neuroscientist
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Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: awesomebastard]
    #9014383 - 10/01/08 04:49 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Okay, well it's my opinion that people shouldn't make irreversible decisions that affect everyone around them without fully considering all the options.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see


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InvisibleVeritas
 User Gallery
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: zouden]
    #9014402 - 10/01/08 04:53 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

That's an impossible standard, and would apply to many decisions besides suicide.  Who would determine that someone had "considered all the options"?  The individual?  Society?  A psychiatrist?  The Pope? 


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OfflineExplosiveMango
HallucinogenusDigitallus
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Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 3,222
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: zouden]
    #9015230 - 10/01/08 07:30 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
Quote:

The Cypher said:
Quote:

zouden said:
> it's a courageous move; somebody didn't like the situation they were in, so they took themselves out of it, instead of compromising with it.

WTF? Since when is giving up more courageous than dealing with your problems? It's the complete opposite of courage, if anything.




It's pretty damn courageous to throw off your natural survival instinct in favor of a complete unknown--the person committing suicide is essentially casting their life to the fates for the possibility of never existing again, getting reborn into a lower form of life, or worse yet: burning in the fires of Hell for all of eternity because suicide is a sin.




It's not some D&D game where if they don't like their character they can just reroll. You deal with what you've got, and anyone who gives up just because they think they're unhappy is weak and selfish, IMHO.





Who did you hear this from?
The dungeon master?

God is a crop that is grown in the church, much like wood is grown in a woodlot.

If I learned to harvest God and make it into slavery through the concept of suicide-as-evil I would build that machine in an instant.

Quote:


Quote:

Only if you choose to see them as problems.




The same would apply to the person considering suicide. They should stop seeing their life as a series of problems.




Or maybe people should stop realizing that they know how other people should think?

Just a thought though. Feel free to tell me I'm wrong.


--------------------
Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.

The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.


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OfflineExplosiveMango
HallucinogenusDigitallus
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Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: zouden]
    #9015299 - 10/01/08 07:44 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
Okay, well it's my opinion that people shouldn't make irreversible decisions that affect everyone around them without fully considering all the options.




Okay, well it's my opinion that every decision is irreversible and they all affect everyone around them and it's impossible to consider all the options.

So stop making so many irreversible decisions.

STOP IT.


--------------------
Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.

The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.


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