|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: zouden]
#9013043 - 10/01/08 11:56 AM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
zouden said: They can make their own problems that way, but having your brother commit suicide can also bring about some problems pretty damn quick, I imagine.
Only if you choose to see them as problems.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
zouden
Neuroscientist


Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 14 years, 3 months
|
Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: deCypher]
#9013884 - 10/01/08 03:13 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
The Cypher said:
Quote:
zouden said: > it's a courageous move; somebody didn't like the situation they were in, so they took themselves out of it, instead of compromising with it.
WTF? Since when is giving up more courageous than dealing with your problems? It's the complete opposite of courage, if anything.
It's pretty damn courageous to throw off your natural survival instinct in favor of a complete unknown--the person committing suicide is essentially casting their life to the fates for the possibility of never existing again, getting reborn into a lower form of life, or worse yet: burning in the fires of Hell for all of eternity because suicide is a sin.
It's not some D&D game where if they don't like their character they can just reroll. You deal with what you've got, and anyone who gives up just because they think they're unhappy is weak and selfish, IMHO.
Quote:
Only if you choose to see them as problems.
The same would apply to the person considering suicide. They should stop seeing their life as a series of problems.
-------------------- I know... that just the smallest part of the world belongs to me You know... I'm not a blind man but truth is the hardest thing to see
|
MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
|
Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: zouden]
#9013903 - 10/01/08 03:18 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
It's not some D&D game where if they don't like their character they can just reroll. You deal with what you've got, and anyone who gives up just because they think they're unhappy is weak and selfish, IMHO.
Why does one have to keep on living, if they don't wish to? Can you perhaps bring a universal argument that proves that choosing to live is the answer to everything? What about those who expect that their loved ones shouldn't kill themselves just because they should consider how much it would hurt them? Couldn't that be considered selfish?
Quote:
The same would apply to the person considering suicide. They should stop seeing their life as a series of problems.
Why should they do that?
--------------------
   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
|
deranger


Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
|
Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: zouden]
#9013919 - 10/01/08 03:21 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
You deal with what you've got, and anyone who gives up just because they think they're unhappy is weak and selfish, IMHO.
have you ever had to grow up to a very abusive drunk father?
not all children are immune to negative emotional states... in fact children are quite susceptible, and when abused it grows with them and becomes a constant battle imo. some would just prefer not to live, i don't blame them.
|
Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
|
Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: deranger]
#9013938 - 10/01/08 03:25 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
I agree. No one is obligated to continue living. It is overstepping to think that we can sit in judgment regarding someone else's decision to end their life.
|
Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
|
Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: zouden]
#9013952 - 10/01/08 03:27 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
zouden said: But suicide turns your own problems into other peoples' problems. That's why it's so selfish.
But continuing to live & wishing you were dead will not become a problem for your loved ones? How could that possibly be true? It is selfish to live, it is selfish to die. Humans are selfish, so what?
|
zouden
Neuroscientist


Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 14 years, 3 months
|
Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Veritas]
#9013995 - 10/01/08 03:36 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
>I agree. No one is obligated to continue living.
Agreed.
> It is overstepping to think that we can sit in judgment regarding someone else's decision to end their life.
It depends whether it's a good decision made with full understanding of the pros and cons. I will concede that there are times when it might be the best option. My issue is that most of the time it's not a good decision - it's usually young people, who haven't had the experience to know that life can get better, or they're oblivious to the effect their death would have on people around them.
-------------------- I know... that just the smallest part of the world belongs to me You know... I'm not a blind man but truth is the hardest thing to see
|
Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
|
Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: zouden]
#9014014 - 10/01/08 03:42 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Actually, the age group with the highest rate of suicide is those 65 and older.
Either way, is it really up to us to decide whether someone's suicide was a good decision? Humans make stupid decisions all the time, and many of these decisions result in their death and/or the death of others. How is suicide any more or less acceptable than smoking cigarettes, eating fatty foods, being sedentary, speeding, driving while drunk, etc...etc...?
I think it would be terrific if the stigma against seeking counseling did not exist, and if all the counselors were highly skilled and empathic, and if parents noticed when their kids were depressed, and so on. Not only would this help the few kids who would otherwise commit suicide go on to live an enjoyable life, it might help those who would otherwise have gone on living in misery.
|
deranger


Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
|
Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Veritas]
#9014055 - 10/01/08 03:51 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Veritas said: Actually, the age group with the highest rate of suicide is those 65 and older.
wow that's a new one.
|
zouden
Neuroscientist


Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 14 years, 3 months
|
Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Veritas]
#9014121 - 10/01/08 04:02 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Veritas said: Actually, the age group with the highest rate of suicide is those 65 and older.
Wow, you learn something new every day 
Quote:
Either way, is it really up to us to decide whether someone's suicide was a good decision? Humans make stupid decisions all the time, and many of these decisions result in their death and/or the death of others. How is suicide any more or less acceptable than smoking cigarettes, eating fatty foods, being sedentary, speeding, driving while drunk, etc...etc...?
Those are risky behaviours, but much less risky than suicide. You can always quit smoking when you see the error of your ways.
Quote:
I think it would be terrific if the stigma against seeking counseling did not exist, and if all the counselors were highly skilled and empathic, and if parents noticed when their kids were depressed, and so on. Not only would this help the few kids who would otherwise commit suicide go on to live an enjoyable life, it might help those who would otherwise have gone on living in misery.
Amen.
-------------------- I know... that just the smallest part of the world belongs to me You know... I'm not a blind man but truth is the hardest thing to see
|
deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
|
Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: zouden]
#9014161 - 10/01/08 04:11 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
This is your life, and it's ending one minute at a time.
Suicide simply puts some temporal certainty into an uncertain event.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
|
Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
|
Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: deranger]
#9014212 - 10/01/08 04:21 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
The 45-54 year old age group had the greatest increase in suicides from 1999-2004. (20% as compared to 2% in the 15-24 year old age group.)
By the numbers, the most-likely person to commit suicide in the U.S. is a white male aged 45 or older.
|
awesomebastard
Lost



Registered: 12/16/07
Posts: 4,891
|
Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: zouden]
#9014259 - 10/01/08 04:29 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
zouden said: > It is overstepping to think that we can sit in judgment regarding someone else's decision to end their life.
It depends whether it's a good decision made with full understanding of the pros and cons. I will concede that there are times when it might be the best option. My issue is that most of the time it's not a good decision - it's usually young people, who haven't had the experience to know that life can get better, or they're oblivious to the effect their death would have on people around them.
What constitutes a good decision? Whatever it is it's an opinion not fact.
You have no idea what someone else is going through. To call someone selfish for killing themselves is ignorance at it's worst.
--------------------
"Absolute certainty is a privilege of uneducated minds and fanatics." ~ C.J. Keyser Mr. Cypher said: "I just tell the girls how sexy I am and their panties melt."
|
OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
|
Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: Veritas]
#9014275 - 10/01/08 04:32 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Uh oh...
--------------------
|
zouden
Neuroscientist


Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 14 years, 3 months
|
|
>What constitutes a good decision?
A decision made with full knowledge and after proper consideration of the options. It's the difference between good, bad, or wrong. Wrong is when you made the wrong choice. Bad is when you made an uneducated choice.
-------------------- I know... that just the smallest part of the world belongs to me You know... I'm not a blind man but truth is the hardest thing to see
|
awesomebastard
Lost



Registered: 12/16/07
Posts: 4,891
|
Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: zouden]
#9014353 - 10/01/08 04:45 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
but you say that it's "wrong" to make a "bad" decision.
right wrong good and bad all sound like opinions to me.
--------------------
"Absolute certainty is a privilege of uneducated minds and fanatics." ~ C.J. Keyser Mr. Cypher said: "I just tell the girls how sexy I am and their panties melt."
|
zouden
Neuroscientist


Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 14 years, 3 months
|
|
Okay, well it's my opinion that people shouldn't make irreversible decisions that affect everyone around them without fully considering all the options.
-------------------- I know... that just the smallest part of the world belongs to me You know... I'm not a blind man but truth is the hardest thing to see
|
Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
|
Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: zouden]
#9014402 - 10/01/08 04:53 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
That's an impossible standard, and would apply to many decisions besides suicide. Who would determine that someone had "considered all the options"? The individual? Society? A psychiatrist? The Pope?
|
ExplosiveMango
HallucinogenusDigitallus


Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 3,222
Last seen: 14 years, 2 months
|
Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: zouden]
#9015230 - 10/01/08 07:30 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
zouden said:
Quote:
The Cypher said:
Quote:
zouden said: > it's a courageous move; somebody didn't like the situation they were in, so they took themselves out of it, instead of compromising with it.
WTF? Since when is giving up more courageous than dealing with your problems? It's the complete opposite of courage, if anything.
It's pretty damn courageous to throw off your natural survival instinct in favor of a complete unknown--the person committing suicide is essentially casting their life to the fates for the possibility of never existing again, getting reborn into a lower form of life, or worse yet: burning in the fires of Hell for all of eternity because suicide is a sin.
It's not some D&D game where if they don't like their character they can just reroll. You deal with what you've got, and anyone who gives up just because they think they're unhappy is weak and selfish, IMHO.
Who did you hear this from? The dungeon master?
God is a crop that is grown in the church, much like wood is grown in a woodlot.
If I learned to harvest God and make it into slavery through the concept of suicide-as-evil I would build that machine in an instant.
Quote:
Quote:
Only if you choose to see them as problems.
The same would apply to the person considering suicide. They should stop seeing their life as a series of problems.
Or maybe people should stop realizing that they know how other people should think?
Just a thought though. Feel free to tell me I'm wrong.
-------------------- Know your self. Know your substance. Know your source. The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.
|
ExplosiveMango
HallucinogenusDigitallus


Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 3,222
Last seen: 14 years, 2 months
|
Re: What is wrong with suicide? [Re: zouden]
#9015299 - 10/01/08 07:44 PM (15 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
zouden said: Okay, well it's my opinion that people shouldn't make irreversible decisions that affect everyone around them without fully considering all the options.
Okay, well it's my opinion that every decision is irreversible and they all affect everyone around them and it's impossible to consider all the options.
So stop making so many irreversible decisions.
STOP IT.
-------------------- Know your self. Know your substance. Know your source. The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.
|
|